Next CanMNT manager (Herdman to TFC)

[Sal333]

9 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

That was one strength of that team then, not of the players themselves.  Herdman did what he needed to and I will always be grateful to him for that.  But it stopped working against big opponents; we need a system to get the best out of very good players. It is not a strength going forward, for Davies, who is still here, unlike Herdman, or other players as I have outlined. 

Honestly though if we are going off one season - 12 years ago - and what other people say, I lose respect for the position very quickly.  (I guess the comment about "leaving in the middle of the night" might have been a warning flag.) That is before he got into the Red Bull system, before he was tutored by Ragnick.  I guess it makes it understandable why you wouldn't get how gegenpressing would work with Canada, because Marsch wouldn't have really known it yet.  

Maybe go look at some of the Coach's Voice stuff that Marsch has done and get a more updated view of how he sees things. The thing he recently did on Leeds' 1-2 win over Liverpool at Anfield in 2022 is really interesting.  Listen to the changes he talks about making for the game and the plans to attack specific players.  It goes against what you were saying, which make some sense if you are going on what he did 12 years ago. 

We aren't going win every game just like Leeds, but I think if we can be as competitive as they were under him against teams with superior talent and resources, I would be very happy. 

 

We made click-bait fodder in the Mail on this topic by the way

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-13350055/Ole-Gunnar-Solskjaer-Jesse-Marsch-Canada-Jose-Mourinho-Frank-Lampard.html

 

There are three flaws with gegenpressing when implemented by a team like Canada.

1) You need hyper-fit players on the same wavelength for 90 minutes. That's close to impossible to maintain in a tournament where you have games every three or four days. Also, you may be too young to remember but the NT team in the 86 World Cup played an earlier version of this. They burnt themselves out. 

2)  In tournament situations to implement this system you need depth on the squad. Although our depth is growing it is nowhere close to accommodating the high demands of gegenpressing.         

3) Against world-class teams gegenpressing will leave a backline like Canada's vulnerable. Extremely vulnerable.   If we had a couple of Tomoris on that backline, I would be willing to try it but with the players we have right now it's suicide.   

You would do exactly what Marsch will do if given the reins to the national team. Admire the system and ignore the players you have on the team.   Whether today or 12 years ago, that's Marsch's M.O. He gives no thought to what players he has on his teams. He believes in his system. I have neither time nor patience for such tunnel-visioned managers.   

BTW, can you name me a national team that has implemented gegenpressing in a tournament situation and won.                                                

Edited April 26 by Sal333

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

7 hours ago, gigi riva said:

Is the dailymail in England sort of like the SUN papers here in Canada 

It's often referred to as the Daily Heil in the UK because of a long history of being well to the right of Genghis Khan politically. An infamous headline from the 1930s was "Hurrah for the Blackshirts" in support of the British Union of Fascists.

[InglewoodJack]

Wasn't Ole the manager of Man U when Davies got into a bit of hot water for saying that they should've taken the captain's armband from Harry Maguire and given it to Ronaldo? Would be funny if he came to manage Canada, letting Eustaquio keep the armband over *our* greatest player of all time.

7 hours ago, gigi riva said:

I think it will Jesse Marsh  along with Bobby Symroantis as his assistant  .  While Biello will look after the youth teams

Does a CANMNT assistant earn more than a CPL headcoach? Genuine question.

[jhoops__]

https://theathletic.com/5446133/2024/04/26/canada-copa-america-head-coach/?source=user_shared_article

 

Paul Clement seems an interesting potential hire…

[Joe MacCarthy]

This may be an edited version of the livestream I posted earlier

 

[nolando]

14 minutes ago, jhoops__ said:

https://theathletic.com/5446133/2024/04/26/canada-copa-america-head-coach/?source=user_shared_article

 

Paul Clement seems an interesting potential hire…

A very intruiging potentiel option. So much to like there, including having a stellar CV, young, and ambitious. Has seen Ancelotti work and supported him working with top stars, so ticks that box too. International experience.

He's just missing knowledge of our region and, if actually interested in us, would have to be considered a unicorn.

[jhoops__]

His best work was done as a top assistant rather than a head coach.  Still, the experience working with elite talent can’t be denied.  

[Joe MacCarthy]

10 minutes ago, nolando said:

A very intriguing potential option. So much to like there, including having a stellar CV, young, and ambitious. Has seen Ancelotti work and supported him working with top stars, so ticks that box too. International experience.

He's not that young, he's 52, which I think is a plus in this case.  I'm only getting a vibe from him and Smyrniotis.  And as someone said above we don't need the drama of a Marsch vs USA scene.  I'd be happy if Clement was the guy.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Sal333 said:

There are three flaws with gegenpressing when implemented by a team like Canada.

1) You need hyper-fit players on the same wavelength for 90 minutes. That's close to impossible to maintain in a tournament where you have games every three or four days. Also, you may be too young to remember but the NT team in the 86 World Cup played an earlier version of this. They burnt themselves out. 

2)  In tournament situations to implement this system you need depth on the squad. Although our depth is growing it is nowhere close to accommodating the high demands of gegenpressing.         

3) Against world-class teams gegenpressing will leave a backline like Canada's vulnerable. Extremely vulnerable.   If we had a couple of Tomoris on that backline, I would be willing to try it but with the players we have right now it's suicide.   

You would do exactly what Marsch will do if given the reins to the national team. Admire the system and ignore the players you have on the team.   Whether today or 12 years ago, that's Marsch's M.O. He gives no thought to what players he has on his teams. He believes in his system. I have neither time nor patience for such tunnel-visioned managers.   

BTW, can you name me a national team that has implemented gegenpressing in a tournament situation and won.                                                

You're slowly convincing me that Marsch could be the wrong choice.  I haven't watched his teams much, just his overall progress and didn't realize he was that limited and stubborn with his system.  We saw it with Montreal, I just assumed he learned along the way.  I don't hate much, but rigid coaches that don't or can't bend to their squads is definitely on the list! 

Also important to note is the part about certain systems with national teams, it's often the "keep it simple stupid" national teams that have the most success or teams with a high number of players that play together very regularly.  We are neither of those.  

[MtlMario]

19 minutes ago, nolando said:

 

He's just missing knowledge of our region and, if actually interested in us, would have to be considered a unicorn.

With no qualifying for W/C's for about 4 more years, knowledge of our region isn't really a big concern for me at this time though.

[InglewoodJack]

His head coaching record is nothing to write home about, but aside from that Clement has been around some big clubs, worked with the best of the best and clearly has respect across Europe. Seems a lot of the feedback on his head coaching experience is that he plays a boring brand of ball, but interesting name to consider.

[nolando]

26 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

He's not that young, he's 52, which I think is a plus in this case.  I'm only getting a vibe from him and Smyrniotis.  And as someone said above we don't need the drama of a Marsch vs USA scene.  I'd be happy if Clement was the guy.

Good point. Showing my own age, I guess, Joe. Haha

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

7 hours ago, Sal333 said:

There are three flaws with gegenpressing when implemented by a team like Canada.

1) You need hyper-fit players on the same wavelength for 90 minutes. That's close to impossible to maintain in a tournament where you have games every three or four days. Also, you may be too young to remember but the NT team in the 86 World Cup played an earlier version of this. They burnt themselves out.                                                 

Generally I would try respectfully to say your understanding of this is many years out of date.  First 12 years ago and then almost 40.  

First we have fit players in the forward areas. Second this is gegen-press, not all-out press as you have tried to say in previous posts.  It is based on greater player fitness - yes - but also video analysis, targeted pressing, staying compact and, honestly, is aided by having 5 subs.  To compare it to '86 is again, I'm sorry, honestly laughable. 

There are what is called "rest phases" where you shape your self to get the ball at the feet of an opposition player that you have determined will less hurt you and wait to pounce on his next pass.  You also stay compact, so you aren't running far for 90 minutes.  If that means you don't high press sometimes, so be it. There are three areas where Marsch specifically has talked about engaging the press, depend on the opposition and the moment. Only one of them is high. 

7 hours ago, Sal333 said:

2)  In tournament situations to implement this system you need depth on the squad. Although our depth is growing it is nowhere close to accommodating the high demands of gegenpressing.

3) Against world-class teams gegenpressing will leave a backline like Canada's vulnerable. Extremely vulnerable.   If we had a couple of Tomoris on that backline, I would be willing to try it but with the players we have right now it's suicide.                                                        

 You have said in previous post that our strength is with forwards and midfielders, that is who drives this.  We have, to name off the top of my head, players who would not neccesarily be in the first 11:  Millar, Nelson, Shaffelburg, Ahmed, Corbeanu, Russel-Rowe, Choiniere, Ugbo, even players like Brym or Fraser, who are playing to enough minutes at a decent level to maintain fitness. You have argued against your point yourself. 

If you tell those players that, not only will they get  minutes but also they are playing in a system designed to get them international goals, I think you have a lot that will work hard to know the system and be ready for their chance.

 

First, if we are going to move the goal posts and say we want a defensive system where we won't concede against world-class teams, then you win. This (or any) is not it.

But it is designed to take pressure of the backline.  

In the real world, we are not going to be running Vitoria in the back.  I can't see anyone not including Bombito and maybe Cornelius.  While they are going to be better at defending breaks than sustained pressure in my opinion, you, again are looking at this as all-out press, not gegenpress. 

 

Overall, the principles are not that complicated and players aren't going to forget them when they go back to their clubs.  They mostly play at modern clubs where they will maintain fitness.  

 

I take a little bit of an exception to the adore the system comment.  You don't need to read my other posts, but if you did you would know I like a lot of systems and like to see how they fit into Canada.  I like this one because it fits our players, as you have pointed out without acknowledging it, - young, fit, fast, in the mid-forward areas. 

 

I like Marsch because he plays that system but also because he has experience in a number of places, including here,  I think he could garner the respect to get the players to play a system, which we need, and is actually realistically available. 

Edited April 26 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[toontownman]

59 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

His head coaching record is nothing to write home about, but aside from that Clement has been around some big clubs, worked with the best of the best and clearly has respect across Europe. Seems a lot of the feedback on his head coaching experience is that he plays a boring brand of ball, but interesting name to consider.

https://extra.ie/2024/02/27/sport/soccernews/paul-clement-who-is-ireland

Bit of a short hand write up of his career. He was very much in the frame for the Ireland job. Has some international level experience with England u21s, Ireland u21s and coaches the full team for 3 games in the interim years ago. 

It's a different ball game to club level. You deal with different pressures, conflicts and roadblocks, so I'd expect the panel deciding are looking for a few different attributes than we would perhaps harshly judge from an overview of a club level record in management. 

Clement has lots of upside and is undoubtedly interested. We really need someone to inspire fans in addition to the players though. 

[Ivan]

I like the idea of Smyrniotis and Wheeldon taking over our youth teams.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

You're slowly convincing me that Marsch could be the wrong choice.  I haven't watched his teams much, just his overall progress and didn't realize he was that limited and stubborn with his system.  We saw it with Montreal, I just assumed he learned along the way.  I don't hate much, but rigid coaches that don't or can't bend to their squads is definitely on the list! 

Also important to note is the part about certain systems with national teams, it's often the "keep it simple stupid" national teams that have the most success or teams with a high number of players that play together very regularly.  We are neither of those.  

To be honest, mate, it is a big misunderstanding of the system based on the bolded fact.  If we are honestly comparing a very modern system to Canada '86, it should ring some huge alarm bells, don't you think?

(Most) players are not complete idiots, they are not going to forget basic principles over a few months at most. 

Edited April 26 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

6 hours ago, nolando said:

A very intruiging potentiel option. So much to like there, including having a stellar CV, young, and ambitious. Has seen Ancelotti work and supported him working with top stars, so ticks that box too. International experience.

He's just missing knowledge of our region and, if actually interested in us, would have to be considered a unicorn.

My brother's in-laws are Reading so I have a passing interest (mostly to laugh at them when I am able) and my memory of him there is not good, just avoided relegation, I think.  Kind of the beginnings of their current troubles, but I could be compacting too many years. 

 

His time in the Premier League is maybe better, Swansea were on the decline after coming up a few years before, riding Brendan Rodger and a wave of very smart young buys.  But he fairly safely kept them up with most of the buys already sold on.  The best thing I remember about them was Fabianski in net. 

 

If we want coach who has work with some big-name players, he fits the bill.  He has won a lot as an assistant. I don't remember anything tactical that would sell him to me though. 

 

 

Edited April 26 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[nolando]

I guess Canada Soccer needs to decide if they want a manager who wants to play the beautiful game in an exciting and attacking sense. The feedback from the crowd is lukewarm on this fellow's brand of football. Maybe the high level assistant with a good CV and a reputation of being a safe-styled manager makes him more of a Holger comparision than anything/anyone.

[nolando]

In any case, a glance at his Wikipedia entry alone (or Marsch's) makes even the consideration of either CPL candidate as serious competition seem outlandish.

[Sal333]

3 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Generally I would try respectfully to say your understanding of this is many years out of date.  First 12 years ago and then almost 40.  

First we have fit players in the forward areas. Second this is gegen-press, not all-out press as you have tried to say in previous posts.  It is based on greater player fitness - yes - but also video analysis, targeted pressing, staying compact and, honestly, is aided by have 5 subs.  To compare it to '86 is again, I'm sorry, honestly laughable. 

There are what is called "rest phases" where you shape your self to get the ball at the feet of an opposition player that you have determined will less hurt you and wait to pounce on his next pass.  You also stay compact, so you aren't running far for 90 minutes.  If that does that mean you don't high press sometimes, so be it. There are three areas where Marsch specifically has talked about engaging the press, depend on the opposition and the moment. Only one of them is high. 

 You have said in previous post that our strength is with forwards and midfielders, that is who drives this.  We have, to name off the top of my head, players who would not neccesarily be in the first 11:  Millar, Nelson, Shaffelburg, Ahmed, Corbeanu, Russel-Rowe, Choiniere, Ugbo, even players like Brym or Fraser, who are playing to enough minutes at a decent level to maintain fitness. You have argued against your point yourself. 

If you tell those players that not only will they get  minutes but also they are playing in a system designed to get them international goals, I think you have a lot that will work hard to know the system and be ready for their chance.

 

First, if we are going to move the goal posts and say we want a defensive system where we won't concede against world-class teams, then you win. This (or any) is not it.

But it is designed to take pressure of the backline.  

In the real world, we are not going to be running Vitoria in the back.  I can't see anyone not including Bombito and maybe Cornelius.  While they are going to be better at defending breaks than sustained pressure in my opinion, you, again are looking at this as all-out press, not gegenpress. 

 

Overall, the principles are not that complicated and players aren't going to forget them when they go back to their clubs.  They mostly play at modern clubs where they will maintain fitness.  

 

I take a little bit of an exception to the adore the system comment.  You don't need to read my other posts, but if you did you would know I like a lot of systems and like to see how they fit into Canada.  I like this one because it fits our players, as you have pointed out without acknowledging it, - young, fit, fast, in the mid-forward areas. 

 

I like Marsch because he plays that system but also because he has experience in a number of places, including here,  I think he could garner the respect to get the players to play a system, which we need, and is actually realistically available. 

There's a dark, dark side to my character and it gleefully wishes for Marsch to get the job just so you can see how unsuitable he is for this program. But then Canadian soccer would suffer another setback and we don't need that. So, I'll be quite happy if they don't hire him and we'll never know whether I'm right or wrong about Marsch.

[jdheid]

3 hours ago, Ivan said:

I like the idea of Smyrniotis and Wheeldon taking over our youth teams.

Agreed. The Onesoccer guys made an interesting case for hiring a CPL coach, but I think managing a youth team or coming aboard the senior program as an assistant makes more sense for Bobby or Tommy for now. 

Listening to NF Podcast now and Brendan Dunlop seems really excited about the possibility of Marsch. I don't know nearly enough about him to say one way or the other, but I reallly think hiring from within CONCACAF makes the most sense. It really seems to be a world unto itself and knowledge of how to navigate it is important.

[El Diego]

22 hours ago, Shway said:

Exactly! 

As much as I don't like it, Jesse seems like a reasonable hire.

As much as I have criticized him, I would take him over all the other (non-Canadian) rumoured names

[narduch]

4 hours ago, Ivan said:

I like the idea of Smyrniotis and Wheeldon taking over our youth teams.

Both those guys probably have higher ambitions than that.

[Ed_S]

3 minutes ago, narduch said:

Both those guys probably have higher ambitions than that.

Tommy Wheeldon Jr was part of one our youth team setups when he was still with Foothills. Can't recall which off the top of my head.  So I would agree with you.

[Canuckia]

I know I'm thinking with my heart rather than my head on this one and that a big name doesn't mean he's the practical choice. But, as a Man Utd supporter, I would love to see 20LEgend take over with Bobby S. as his assistant to get his feet wet.