Next CanMNT manager (Herdman to TFC)

[Joe MacCarthy]

 

Edited April 25 by Joe MacCarthy

[One American]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ManU fans would probably take Ole back. It seems like he had the most success in the post-Sir Alex era. 

[frmr]

49 minutes ago, One American said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ManU fans would probably take Ole back. It seems like he had the most success in the post-Sir Alex era. 

That's not saying a lot... He had some initial success but by the end of his tenure it was a complete tire fire. Which has been par for the course for them.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Is it me or are all these candidates absolutely absurd?

You don't take a manager with no National Team experience into your first Copa America and home World Cup. Stop calling Mourinho and nail down some realistic candidates:

1. Thomas Christansen

2, Juan Carlos Osorio

3. Luiz Suarez

Let's stop fucking around here.

[El Diego]

34 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

Is it me or are all these candidates absolutely absurd?

You don't take a manager with no National Team experience into your first Copa America and home World Cup. Stop calling Mourinho and nail down some realistic candidates:

1. Thomas Christansen

2, Juan Carlos Osorio

3. Luiz Suarez

Let's stop fucking around here.

I'm with you, if these are truly the names they are gunning for then I fear they are going for a PR over a soccer decision

[Shway]

2 minutes ago, El Diego said:

I'm with you, if these are truly the names they are gunning for then I fear they are going for a PR over a soccer decision

Exactly! 

As much as I don't like it, Jesse seems like a reasonable hire.

[Sal333]

8 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

 

Respectfully its not a strength and has been a weakness.  Doing "whatever" with Davies is not what we need, for instance. We need a clear defined plan with what to do with our talented players.  The cart leading the horse is what made a road even tougher at the World Cup and saw us struggle afterwards.  

I don't know where you got the idea that I want to do "whatever" with Davies. I'm of the school that wants him to play left back.

You bring up the World Cup and I think that's where Herdman went against his players' strength. He gave in to the players' desire to play pressing football. He said as much in his post game pressers. And that's what did them in. It's what will do in Mrasch. We don't have the quality back line to play Marsch's style. Mid fielders and forwards are this team's strengths. You play Marsch's all out attack/pressing and you expose the back line.

 

[GasPed]

47 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

Stop calling Mourinho and nail down some realistic candidates:

1. Thomas Christansen

2, Juan Carlos Osorio

3. Luiz Suarez

Let's stop fucking around here.

Are you saying there's a reason Thomas Tuchel and Jurgen Klopp didn't return our calls?

Edited April 25 by GasPed

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, Sal333 said:

I don't know where you got the idea that I want to do "whatever" with Davies. I'm of the school that wants him to play left back.

You bring up the World Cup and I think that's where Herdman went against his players' strength. He gave in to the players' desire to play pressing football. He said as much in his post game pressers. And that's what did them in. It's what will do in Mrasch. We don't have the quality back line to play Marsch's style. Mid fielders and forwards are this team's strengths. You play Marsch's all out attack/pressing and you expose the back line.

 

If you want him to play leftback and stick to being a left back, then it goes against what you said about being versatile.  He needs a defined role and we need a defined system.  The debate about where is different, but I probably agree he is not a player you hand the keys to the offence and say "go be versatile." But you do say go harass and beat people on the wings and then cut it back to the plethora of finishers we have or make room for yourself because you are not a bad finisher yourself.  That's your role. 

And David and Larin are similar, they are not versatile players who create their own chances,  they both can be good in transition but most often they are beholden to service.  We don't have an amazing 10 to unlock defences and give them that service, instead you look for a system that provides it.  Fonseca's at Lille is an example, but if you listen to him speak about his coaching (he has been linked with West Ham) it is a defined system that requires pressing. 

 

I would appreciate the Herdman quote about the World Cup and "pressing".  My impression was he let the players play more attacking because they wanted to, I don't remember much about pressing. I could be wrong.   

 

Again, respectfully ,your last couple of sentences, to me, misunderstand what gegenpress is. 

If you have a defence you are confident in, like a number of English managers, you clog your final third and invited the pressure and, win the ball back there, then look to counter.  

In Ragnick/Klopp/Marsch ideal, you really never want the ball getting to your defence.   You are trying to get the ball back much higher, where are our good athletic players are - Davies, David, Buchanan, Kone - if he had a coach that could  instill that in him - and Eustaquio who can at least run all day and can pick a pass. 

The defence will look to jump in offensively  and protect breaks - we will have a much more athletic group than the World Cup , I am willing to bet - but you shouldn't need, as much, players whose strength is dealing with sustained pressure, which are  what I would say would be the faults of the inexperienced group we might send out. 

So if we have good athletic forwards and maybe a suspect tactical defence, the Marsch system is a great fit to use the strength we have and try to lessen the prominence of the weakness. 

 

Edited April 25 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Joe MacCarthy]

 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

3 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

Is it me or are all these candidates absolutely absurd?

You don't take a manager with no National Team experience into your first Copa America and home World Cup. Stop calling Mourinho and nail down some realistic candidates:

1. Thomas Christansen

2, Juan Carlos Osorio

3. Luiz Suarez

Let's stop fucking around here.

Marsch was an international assistant to Bradley for a not unsubstantial number of games. 

 

I have never seen Christiansen even implied as wanting to come to us, so not sure how he is any more realistic than coaches not actually under contract currently.   You do usually have to pay fees  to get people out of those.

 

I am not sure why he tops people's lists. Panama in the last cycle has beat the teams they should and lost to the teams they should (the USA B/C squad at the Gold Cup  being a positive exception and Jamaica in the Nations League a possible negative one.)  That says good not amazing to me. 

Combine that with him having such a mediocre club record compared some of the others. 

But most important, personally, would say his teams are too much build slowly, possession-based to really take advantage of what our best players do.   

Edited April 26 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 hours ago, GasPed said:

Are you saying there's a reason Thomas Tuchel and Jurgen Klopp didn't return our calls?

Tuchel's coming to West Ham, don'cha know?

 

*sound of an off-camera gunshot* 

 

[toontownman]

I really love AGR. Almost universal great takes and clearly a hell of a mind for the game, stats etc. I Like the content he and the one soccer team do. What I got from that long video and homage to Marsch (said tongue in cheek): 

- question marks on whether his style would work at the international level

- question marks as to how his style could be detrimental to players

- question marks on on his club career and how successful he is in general. 

- question marks on his commitment if the US comes calling 

And ultimately that Marsch is, almost clearly from the rumoured list, our best choice despite all of that.

While its a bit of a fun. I also don't get the excitement with his beef with Gregg/US program. That is US drama, we are potentially the rebound partner laughing until we realise he is still in love with her not us.

We don't need more drama. Especially USA drama. 

Also the big, he knows concacaf. Does he? He knows the MLS. Did he have lots of experience with the other 90% of concacaf. Does the MLS thing matter all that much when half the squad is coming from Europe? Sure it's nice but does anyone believe a coach that didn't manage in MLS would be able to work it out? 

Honest to God I apologise for another pointless rant and honest I don't hate the guy and think he would absolutely be a bust. I think there is a lot of overt excitement in that video and elsewhere about this list of guys that arguably are worse on paper than Floro. There is limited to no international management experience. Not the be all end all if they have stand out resumes and success at other levels. While likeable I don't think there were many people ever convinced by solskjaer. He fits the same would as lampard, Gerrard, Henry, shearer.. they got given opportunities of their name as a player/club idol. Yes they managed big name players, they worked with them is a better word as didn't each ultimately not manage to handle the egos?

We are also where we are at but it's not the same Canadian team prior to Herdman, there is huge potential and opportunites to grow. There just seems to be two ends to this spectrum and an invisible more realistic missing list of the middle. As @youllneverwalkalone rightly says, absurd. Can't we have a coach somewhere closer to the middle of this list and mourinho? 🥵

I'm all over Bobby as assistant whomever takes charge.

 

 

Edited April 26 by toontownman

[toontownman]

24 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

 

Ok I took my pills as Gareth Wheeler has spoken sense. Bookmark that.

[badname22]

I watch united heavily during Ole’s reign. The joke was that Oleball consists of no tactics, just good vibes. He set up a good counter attacking team, but his united teams could never do much with possession. Thus, he has a better record against big clubs than relegation fodder. My biggest concern though is that he had Carrick and Mckenna, who are both doing wonders in the championship, as assistants. It will be interesting to see how he does without them.

[Sal333]

3 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

If you want him to play leftback and stick to being a left back, then it goes against what you said about being versatile. 

 

I didn't say versatile. I said adaptable and I wasn't referring to Davies in particular but the whole team. That is exactly how Herdman had them play before the World Cup. He would change the formation and the tactics according to the opponent. And even make similar changes within the game. Marsch has only one way of playing. There will be no surprises with Marsch. I think Herdman's strategy is more rewarding. There are others, like yourself, who prefer Marsch's approach. I think we have world-class forwards, very good midfielders but subpar defenders. Herdman knew this and changed his tactics to protect the back line. In other words, he adapted the system and formation according to the strengths and weaknesses of his players. Marsch has only one approach to the game and he couldn't give a flying fuck what players he has on the team. Well, that's the way he managed when he was here in Montreal and to be honest I haven't followed his career devotedly but all the comments I hear about his managing style leads me to believe he hasn't changed one iota.

Edited April 26 by Sal333

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, Sal333 said:

I didn't say versatile. I said adaptable and I wasn't referring to Davies in particular but the whole team. That is exactly how Herdman had them play before the World Cup. He would change the formation and the tactics according to the opponent. And even make similar changes within the game. Marsch has only one way of playing. There will be no surprises with Marsch. I think Herdman's strategy is more rewarding. There are others, like yourself, who prefer Marsch's approach. I think we have world-class forwards, very good midfielders but subpar defenders. Herdman knew this and changed his tactics to protect the back line. In other words, he adapted the system and formation according to the strengths and weaknesses of his players. Marsch has only one approach to the game and he couldn't give a flying fuck what players he has on the team. Well, that's the way he managed when he was here in Montreal and to be honest I haven't followed his career devotedly but all the comments I hear about his managing style leads me to believe he hasn't changed one iota.

That was one strength of that team then, not of the players themselves.  Herdman did what he needed to and I will always be grateful to him for that.  But it stopped working against big opponents; we need a system to get the best out of very good players. It is not a strength going forward, for Davies, who is still here, unlike Herdman, or other players as I have outlined. 

Honestly though if we are going off one season - 12 years ago - and what other people say, I lose respect for the position very quickly.  (I guess the comment about "leaving in the middle of the night" might have been a warning flag.) That is before he got into the Red Bull system, before he was tutored by Ragnick.  I guess it makes it understandable why you wouldn't get how gegenpressing would work with Canada, because Marsch wouldn't have really known it yet.  

Maybe go look at some of the Coach's Voice stuff that Marsch has done and get a more updated view of how he sees things. The thing he recently did on Leeds' 1-2 win over Liverpool at Anfield in 2022 is really interesting.  Listen to the changes he talks about making for the game and the plans to attack specific players.  It goes against what you were saying, which make some sense if you are going on what he did 12 years ago. 

We aren't going win every game just like Leeds, but I think if we can be as competitive as they were under him against teams with superior talent and resources, I would be very happy. 

 

We made click-bait fodder in the Mail on this topic by the way

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-13350055/Ole-Gunnar-Solskjaer-Jesse-Marsch-Canada-Jose-Mourinho-Frank-Lampard.html

 

Edited April 26 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[One American]

Man, I don't think that commanding the room comes down to Canadian-ness. The more big team players you have, the more you need a manager with a track record they can respect. 

 

[gigi riva]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

That was one strength of that team then, not of the players themselves.  Herdman did what he needed to and I will always be grateful to him for that.  But it stopped working against big opponents; we need a system to get the best out of very good players. It is not a strength going forward, for Davies, who is still here, unlike Herdman, or other players as I have outlined. 

Honestly though if we are going off one season - 12 years ago - and what other people say, I lose respect for the position very quickly.  (I guess the comment about "leaving in the middle of the night" might have been a warning flag.) That is before he got into the Red Bull system, before he was tutored by Ragnick.  I guess it makes it understandable why you wouldn't get how gegenpressing would work with Canada, because Marsch wouldn't have really known it yet.  

Maybe go look at some of the Coach's Voice stuff that Marsch has done and get a more updated view of how he sees things. The thing he recently did on Leeds' 1-2 win over Liverpool at Anfield in 2022 is really interesting.  Listen to the changes he talks about making for the game and the plans to attack specific players.  It goes against what you were saying, which make some sense if you are going on what he did 12 years ago. 

We aren't going win every game just like Leeds, but I think if we can be as competitive as they were under him against teams with superior talent and resources, I would be very happy. 

 

We made click-bait fodder in the Mail on this topic by the way

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-13350055/Ole-Gunnar-Solskjaer-Jesse-Marsch-Canada-Jose-Mourinho-Frank-Lampard.html

 

Is the dailymail in England sort of like the SUN papers here in Canada 

[gigi riva]

4 hours ago, toontownman said:

Ok I took my pills as Gareth Wheeler has spoken sense. Bookmark that.

I will lol

[lowlander]

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/canada-solskjaer-manager-mourinho-lampard-b1153814.html
 

 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

8 minutes ago, gigi riva said:

Is the dailymail in England sort of like the SUN papers here in Canada 

The Mail is much older than the English Sun (Murdoch) and so even more so than the Canadian Suns.  But it is a tabloid like them  with less nudity but probably more ridiculous headlines.

[gigi riva]

I think it will Jesse Marsh  along with Bobby Symroantis as his assistant  .  While Biello will look after the youth teams

[An Observer]

3 hours ago, gigi riva said:

Is the dailymail in England sort of like the SUN papers here in Canada 

to put in a North American context, I always thought of it as somewhere between the Canadian Suns and the National Enquirer.

[devioustrevor]

15 hours ago, One American said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ManU fans would probably take Ole back. It seems like he had the most success in the post-Sir Alex era. 

Jose won a Europa League