2019 Canadian Premier League Attendance

[Cheeta]

Was chatting with someone in the know earlier this week and he mentioned that the ancillary revenue by attendee at a Valour match is overall about 1/2 of that by an attendee at a Bomber game.  Don't know how accurate that is but that's what he said.  Would guess a big part of that would be down to the age differences between the two sets of fans.  The younger crowds at the Valour fixtures are either too young to drink or just don't have the clink to spend in the same way as their parents might.  Booze & food. 

Certainly not down to merch sales, that seems to be going well and the smaller crowds I think help a lot with getting people to utilize the parking, on a per captia bases of course.

Some of that sales discrepency might be down to the differences in the footballing cultures as well.  I think before or after events are a bigger part of the CPL experience than it is for say a CFL crowd.  Just because of the length of time you need to spend at the stadium.  With a Valour match more of your evenings budget might get spent elsewhere.

Just trying to point out one of the reasons that bums in seats matters just as much as tickets sold.  That and I've had too much coffee this AM.      

[youllneverwalkalone]

It would be interesting to see the same comparison in MLS. Seattle, for example.

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 8/31/2019 at 4:47 AM, CDNFootballer said:

Shouldn't jump to the conclusion of some teams appearing to be probably papering the house though, disparities in number of no shows can be for various legitimate reasons in different markets. Some clubs may have more corporate/sponsor seats sold than others for instance, an area where there are usually a high rate of no shows. FC Edmonton as an example, had a section of seats sold in one of their previous NASL season's and out of the many seats there were only usually about 10-20 percent that were used for most games. This example isn't papering the house obviously as the seats were sold and the corporate buyer would give these tickets away to fans who largely didn't use them (as happens with many free tickets). FCE made $ for the seats obvously.

If this is the case, then we are missing the next step. If somone is not using their ticket they should get an incentive to get something back by reselling it through a club site or affiliate seller. This is done for one basic reason: to fill the stands, so there are not too many holes, and so the team itself is properly supported on the pitch. 

Selling tickets to people who do not show up is a very bad way to ensure a team feels supported on the pitch.

[sting]

12 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

If this is the case, then we are missing the next step. If somone is not using their ticket they should get an incentive to get something back by reselling it through a club site or affiliate seller. This is done for one basic reason: to fill the stands, so there are not too many holes, and so the team itself is properly supported on the pitch. 

Selling tickets to people who do not show up is a very bad way to ensure a team feels supported on the pitch.

Problem with that is, people will sell them for less than the value of the ticket. When that happens clubs lose season ticket holders as they feel that they can give up the season tickets and just buy cheap seats on the secondary market. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

...and beyond that outright giving tickets away as will also happen devalues the product in the eyes of the people taking advantage of freebies. They tend to just wait for the next freebie rather than paying for it the next time around. Can anybody think of examples of that marketing strategy actually working? It's the committed fanbase that show up game after game that matter the most so best to keep the active capacity small enough to try to create ticket scarcity over and above that so that tickets retain their value on the secondary market and season ticket holders gain a genuine advantage by committing to the entire season rather than paying game-by-game. Think the Valour have had the better approach of the two CFL stadia teams.   

Edited September 1, 2019 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, sting said:

Problem with that is, people will sell them for less than the value of the ticket. When that happens clubs lose season ticket holders as they feel that they can give up the season tickets and just buy cheap seats on the secondary market. 

The mechanisms for these systems are quite clear, here is a typical model.

First, it is prohibited to resell through StubHub or private channels like that for all season ticket holders. They are obliged to resell through the club. They cannot use the purchase of a season ticket a notable discount per game as a way to make money.

Second, the club resells at a price that is the same as the face value of the single seat, or close to it, ie, higher per game than what any season ticket holder in any part of the stadium pays. This means setting up the software whereby a season ticket holder frees up a seat for resale and it can be offered by the club on the open market.

Third, the season ticket holder gets a % of the resale.

Often there is a limit of how many resales over a season can be made, or a % of the total paid for season tickets (eg if they cost 400, the holder can only get back a maximum of 60% of that through resale over a year, or something similar to that model). 

Any season ticket holder who does not go and resells privately is subject to sanction or loss of those tickets for the next year. 

 

 

[Shortdutchcanuck]

3 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The mechanisms for these systems are quite clear, here is a typical model.

First, it is prohibited to resell through StubHub or private channels like that for all season ticket holders. They are obliged to resell through the club. They cannot use the purchase of a season ticket a notable discount per game as a way to make money.

Second, the club resells at a price that is the same as the face value of the single seat, or close to it, ie, higher per game than what any season ticket holder in any part of the stadium pays. This means setting up the software whereby a season ticket holder frees up a seat for resale and it can be offered by the club on the open market.

Third, the season ticket holder gets a % of the resale.

Often there is a limit of how many resales over a season can be made, or a % of the total paid for season tickets (eg if they cost 400, the holder can only get back a maximum of 60% of that through resale over a year, or something similar to that model). 

Any season ticket holder who does not go and resells privately is subject to sanction or loss of those tickets for the next year. 

 

 

Even with these rules in place, such a system requires a certain level of unmet interest to work.  Goes back to stadium size:  if you have 6000 people who want tickets for a 5000 capacity stadium it works great.  If you have 5000 people who want tickets for a 10000 seat stadium it does not work so well.

I've offered my tickets a couple times to people who seemed interested but either something came up or the weather ended up not so great for casual fans.  I'm sure this is the case with a lot of seasons ticket holders.

But I've also heard of seasons ticket holders around me looking for tickets for friends or family and sections looking sold out on Ticketmaster but clearly not full come game time.  In a couple cases when they called Forge reps they were able to get tickets even though Ticketmaster looked sold out, so clearly the system is not quite working yet.

I'm fairly certain Forge does have a policy where STHs can exchange tickets to a game they can't attend for extra tickets to a future game, but I've just always given my tickets away, almost always to friends who showed up.

To your last point: season's ticket holders are the backbone of Forge's revenue, I'm not sure the team is on a position yet where it could start sanctioning non-attendees and risk pissing off any potential financial contributors.  

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

27 minutes ago, Shortdutchcanuck said:

Even with these rules in place, such a system requires a certain level of unmet interest to work.  Goes back to stadium size:  if you have 6000 people who want tickets for a 5000 capacity stadium it works great.  If you have 5000 people who want tickets for a 10000 seat stadium it does not work so well.

I've offered my tickets a couple times to people who seemed interested but either something came up or the weather ended up not so great for casual fans.  I'm sure this is the case with a lot of seasons ticket holders.

But I've also heard of seasons ticket holders around me looking for tickets for friends or family and sections looking sold out on Ticketmaster but clearly not full come game time.  In a couple cases when they called Forge reps they were able to get tickets even though Ticketmaster looked sold out, so clearly the system is not quite working yet.

I'm fairly certain Forge does have a policy where STHs can exchange tickets to a game they can't attend for extra tickets to a future game, but I've just always given my tickets away, almost always to friends who showed up.

To your last point: season's ticket holders are the backbone of Forge's revenue, I'm not sure the team is on a position yet where it could start sanctioning non-attendees and risk pissing off any potential financial contributors.  

 

Fine, all good points--but if the backbone of your revenue do not show up, then you are dealing with an erroneously conceived revenue stream and you should work to transform it. What is the most important thing for a soccer match on a pro level: the match, and fans in the stands to watch it.

[RickC]

4 hours ago, Shortdutchcanuck said:

But I've also heard of seasons ticket holders around me looking for tickets for friends or family and sections looking sold out on Ticketmaster but clearly not full come game time.  In a couple cases when they called Forge reps they were able to get tickets even though Ticketmaster looked sold out, so clearly the system is not quite working yet.

We called our Forge rep to get two tickets to a game for which TicketMaster had almost no seats available, and we got two seats right beside ours. Were they seasons seats held by a corporate holder who couldn't move the tickets so made them available through the club? I don't know, but I do know what it's like to give away tickets held corporately, and it's far more difficult than you may think. It's not just about demand, it's also about did you reach out to the right person at the right time. If I was not a seasons ticket holder and wanted to go to the game I'd head to TM to purchase. Seeing none available, I wouldn't think of contacting the club, so I'd end up not going to the match. Is this suppressing actual paid attendance? Probably not much, but for the recent visit by Calgary it may have.

[Blackjack15]

Weekend games are needed for 2019; no better way than to boost attendance !

hence why we REALLY need that 8th team, to balance things out 

can’t stand another 7 team season for next year. And balanced 14/14 will happen 

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

6204 announced in Halifax:

https://ca.soccerway.com/matches/2019/09/02/canada/canadian-premier-league/hfx-wanderers/fc-edmonton/2991890/

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

4566 announced in Winnipeg:

https://ca.soccerway.com/matches/2019/09/02/canada/canadian-premier-league/valour/cavalry/2991891/

Edit: number now modified to 3173 just as I was about to launch into a long post about why 4566 looked over 1000 too high.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[CDNFootballer]

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

No crowd number so far for the Pacific game from the league or soccerway, but probably sub-2000 actual judging from the highlights:

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

2124 appears to have been the announced number given it gets mentioned by the Times-Colonist:

https://www.timescolonist.com/sports/campbell-header-salvages-draw-for-pacific-fc-against-forge-fc-1.23936522

...It was Norman who won the ball in the middle of the midfield and threw it out wide for Blake Smith to put across to Campbell, much to the delight of the 2,124 fans at Westhills...

[ted]

On 9/1/2019 at 9:16 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Can anybody think of examples of that marketing strategy actually working? It's the committed fanbase that show up game after game... 

I think the "bring a friend" strategy is somewhat useful. A one-on-one "promotion" that turns a season ticket holder into an evangelist/promoter can work. Giving kids "free" or super-cheap tickets as a group is a reasonable investment in the future.

Giving away blocks of tickets to random adults? That is a wasteful, shotgun-style approach that does more harm in the long-run IMO.

 

On 9/2/2019 at 5:05 AM, Blackjack15 said:

Weekend games are needed for 2019; no better way than to boost attendance !

hence why we REALLY need that 8th team, to balance things out 

can’t stand another 7 team season for next year. And balanced 14/14 will happen 

 

Even numbers only matter in knock-out tournaments and a single round "bye" eliminates that problem.

We can do all weekend games without needing to have this mythical "balance" of an even number of teams. For league competition a 7-team league that plays every weekend would see each team get a week off every 8th week. How is that any worse than the current schedule?

We run the cycle twice for an eighteen week schedule where every team plays home and away twice. That schedule could be extended by international breaks and a cup competition. 

 

17 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

2124 appears to have been the announced number given it gets mentioned by the Times-Colonist:

Yeah, it was pretty sparse, but the TV cameras don't pick up the people standing in the beer garden or the "margarita garden" directly below the camera platforms. Those areas were packed last night. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

There's a picture on Reddit today where that last bit's concerned:

[Kent]

2 hours ago, ted said:

We can do all weekend games without needing to have this mythical "balance" of an even number of teams. For league competition a 7-team league that plays every weekend would see each team get a week off every 8th 7th week. How is that any worse than the current schedule?

Fixed.

This year it looks like the season encompasses 26 weekends. So that would mean between 3 and 4 byes per team, assuming there are games every weekend (no breaks for internationals, Gold Cup, holidays).

Why is there only one game scheduled this weekend? Why are there so many Wednesday games? Are Wednesday games meant to fill the gap so you don't have fans waiting 2 full weeks between games when they have a bye? I haven't checked to see if there is any correlation between bye weeks and weekday games.

[narduch]

39 minutes ago, Kent said:

Fixed.

This year it looks like the season encompasses 26 weekends. So that would mean between 3 and 4 byes per team, assuming there are games every weekend (no breaks for internationals, Gold Cup, holidays).

Why is there only one game scheduled this weekend? Why are there so many Wednesday games? Are Wednesday games meant to fill the gap so you don't have fans waiting 2 full weeks between games when they have a bye? I haven't checked to see if there is any correlation between bye weeks and weekday games.

I assume they skipped this weekend for the international break? 

But I don't think the CPL is at the point where they need to be doing that. 

[CDNFootballer]

2124 @ Pacific FC is the official number from the CPL website for last nights match vs Forge FC.

[MrsC]

1 hour ago, Lofty said:

How the hell do you miscount by almost 1400 people?! WFC are a parody of a sports organization, a bunch of bumbling incompetents. The "You don't know what you're doing" football chant comes to mind.

Still, that lower number is interesting in that it puts an upper bound on the number of Valour season ticket holders. And some of those 3173 are surely mini pack holders.

Winnipeg does not typically embrace a major loser so we are likely to see similarly disappointing crowds for the remaining Valour matches.

I'm very surprised by that.  I feel like I've gotten a good idea of how they handle the tickets, and they usually release all available tickets on Ticketmaster the night before.  Every game the seats I count as being 'sold' in TicketMaster the night before line up to be 200-500 less than the announced attendance, which makes sense with walk up sales added in.  On Sunday night I was seeing about 4000 tickets sold, so I was expecting 4200 to 4500 announced.  Very bizare. 

[CDNFootballer]

1 hour ago, Lofty said:

How the hell do you miscount by almost 1400 people?! WFC are a parody of a sports organization, a bunch of bumbling incompetents. The "You don't know what you're doing" football chant comes to mind.

Still, that lower number is interesting in that it puts an upper bound on the number of Valour season ticket holders. And some of those 3173 are surely mini pack holders.

Winnipeg does not typically embrace a major loser so we are likely to see similarly disappointing crowds for the remaining Valour matches.

Not sure if that was Valour's fault or not, ozzie was seemingly pulling the number from the soccerway site so may have been a mistake on their end. The only number I saw on the CPL website was the correct one.

[Bison44]

Numbers shumbers, lets just let Ozzie tell us what it "looks like" to him from watching some highlights off youtube and a couple screen captures from reddit.  

[Cheeta]

4 hours ago, Lofty said:

How the hell do you miscount by almost 1400 people?! WFC are a parody of a sports organization, a bunch of bumbling incompetents. The "You don't know what you're doing" football chant comes to mind.

Still, that lower number is interesting in that it puts an upper bound on the number of Valour season ticket holders. And some of those 3173 are surely mini pack holders.

Winnipeg does not typically embrace a major loser so we are likely to see similarly disappointing crowds for the remaining Valour matches.

Wee elf wins.  She said it was the smallest crowd of the year.  I said sure, but close to the same as the Vs Cup fixture.  We're niggling over a few hundreds but there it is.  

Going into fall I don't know.  I think things will get better as we move out of summer, that is CPL will echo what has already been the experience in other leagues when competing against summer, a dip then a rebound, but I don't know.  Just speculating. 

Know this though.  The last home fixture against York in October is already send off date for me and mine.  Clan Bench will be gathering at IGF, lager in hands, to see Valour's season off so we'll be doing our part!      

 

[SpursFlu]

I think people are putting a bit too much stock into these day to day attendance numbers