Herdman new head coach

[kacbru]

39 minutes ago, RJB said:

Whereas he played poorly in the final he had a pretty good tournament.

Re: Griezmann - pretty good?  I would go even further - outstanding.  I thought he was the key to their wins over England and Morocco.  He was always turning up and forcing turnovers in dangerous positions, spreading the ball around.  I think his relative invisibility in the final was more a function of the French mid-field being completely outplayed.  Rabiot and Tchouameni were completely overmatched by Mac Alister and De Paul to the point where Deschamps had to make the changes and the decision to by-pass the midfield entirely.

[EJsens1]

I don’t think Herdman needs to be replaced anytime soon, but I’m still having trouble digesting some of his tactical decisions but more so his theatrics to the media with his comments in Qatar. It really was bush league stuff. He deserves a chance for the next gold cup and assuming the Copa America happens for us, that too. 
 

3 thing I’ll be looking for the next couple years..

1) Loyalty-there’s a few guys with the roster who shouldn’t be around for ‘26. It’s time to start moving out some old guard and giving other younger guys more prominent roles in the next few tourneys/nation leagues. I think we all know the names.

2) Attendance-I’ll be curious to see if some guys start skipping call ups or a gold cup. Rest is one thing, not caring for your coach is another. If I start seeing that, that will be concerning. 
3) Results-obviously this is important, but good performances in any concacaf tournament is a given and a good performance at the COPA too. If they meet Argentina in their first knock out match, that’s one thing, but if we bow out easily, where we don’t see progression or improvement in play in getting results, the writing is on the wall.

Those are my 3 expectations from Herdman the next few years. If it’s a miss on all 3 by the time COPA wraps up, he’s got to go. You can’t continue on a path like that. Spare me the contract part. They’ll have to eat less than 2 years at that point. It’s not back breaking. Frankly they can’t afford not to move on if what I said above comes to fruition 

 

[Obinna]

43 minutes ago, EJsens1 said:

1) Loyalty-there’s a few guys with the roster who shouldn’t be around for ‘26. It’s time to start moving out some old guard and giving other younger guys more prominent roles in the next few tourneys/nation leagues. I think we all know the names.

Some players are worth keeping around, some players are worth letting go of, and some are in between. I am very curious to see how that plays out, but I do hope Herdman makes good decisions here, even if some of those decisions may be tough.

These decisions will likely be made after the NL or possibly after the Gold Cup. I will consider that and also omit Vitoria and Hutchinson, as both will definitely be done post-Gold Cup.

Players to let go of:

• Cavallini
• Wotherspoon

This is a little harsh, but we cannot keep everyone around. Both are core players to the team and seem to be well liked, which makes it tough, but when you factor in the age and trajectory of both players, along with how little both have played since 2021, this is where the fat should be trimmed. I will say that Cavallini being a striker may still have a route back if he starts scoring tons of goals at a decent level somewhere, but even then we have players like Ugbo and possibly Jebbison that will need to get blooded sooner than later and you cannot do that while keeping Cavallini around, I don't think. I think Lucas may be the "Tosaint Ricketts" of next cycle - maybe gets a cap or two to round out the numbers, but effectively is finished.

When him and Wotherspoon came on during the World Cup, it felt like a reward or recognition for everything they gave to the program. They deserved to play in the World Cup after everything they gave. Herdman was possibly thinking this will literally be their only chance to play in a World Cup. 

Players to keep:

• Hoilett
• Osorio

These two guys are still very important and that was evident considering how much both played in the World Cup. Both will be kept around out of necessity until their standard drops. I think both will play deep into next cycle and will be the veterans of next cycle, possibly making the World Cup roster depending on how they evolve. Not much else to say really. Osorio has always relied on his brain and Hoilett started doing so years ago when his pace started to fade. I think they'll be useful substitutes in the years ahead. 

In between:

• Piette
• Kaye
• Henry

Here is where it gets really interesting.

Henry is often the first name that comes to mind when it comes to cutting ties with players, but I am not yet convinced we have the depth at CB to say goodbye right away. Yao gets a lot of mentions but he's still pretty green. Campanga is greener still. Cornelius, Kennedy, Miller, Waterman...there's only one right-footed player there. This is why I pause for us to cut him out right now. 

With Piette it was a bit of a surprise not to see him feature in the World Cup, but we had little chance to use him. He arguably could have came on for Larin against Croatia to make up a 3-man midfield, but we took the lead way too early to close up shop and before the half closed we were down a goal.

At any rate, he's still a very solid MLS player who is still at a good age and who has done well for the national team. At the same time, the recent games against teams like Uruguay and Japan suggested he cannot hang with top level players for extended periods. He will eventually give the ball away or get caught in posession. 

This finally brings us to Kaye. Everything I said in the last paragraph about Piette applies to Kaye as well. They are the same age as well, which is to say young enough to have something to give. Both have also seemed to peak as players. At their best they are good enough to fill in gaps at the World Cup level, but at their worst both can be liabilites.

Do we want such players blocking the path of up-and-comers like Kone and Nelson? Kone already has leapfrogged both. Nelson (a more offensive player) may still project as a winger, fine, but there's still Fraser, Choniere, Priso and possibly others who haven't even emereged yet. Herdman may have a challenge on his hands deciding on how to balance loyality and blooding new players....

Edited December 20, 2022 by Obinna

[Bison44]

48 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Some players are worth keeping around, some players are worth letting go of, and some are in between. I am very curious to see how that plays out, but I do hope Herdman makes good decisions here, even if some of those decisions may be tough.

A lot of this should just naturally happen as long as Herdman doesnt force things.  Guys lose a step and youngsters mature into  top players and the team still needs to have spots open up to entice a few duals to join in on the fun. He didnt seem to have much of a problem ushering KONE into the rotation and pushing Kaye/Piette to a more supporting role.   One thing I do hope we do is to have bigger camps, more players in and getting some game time. Seeing the kids in scotland and Zator etc talking about wanting to excel at higher levels to get themselves into the CMNT picture is very promising.  Herdman should reward the ones that play well with a call up or two.    Expand the pool a bit, as much as I like seeing Johnston go 25 straight games, mb ZBG could have gotten into a game or two eh???  

[An Observer]

2 hours ago, kacbru said:

Re: Griezmann - pretty good?  I would go even further - outstanding.  I thought he was the key to their wins over England and Morocco.  He was always turning up and forcing turnovers in dangerous positions, spreading the ball around.  I think his relative invisibility in the final was more a function of the French mid-field being completely outplayed.  Rabiot and Tchouameni were completely overmatched by Mac Alister and De Paul to the point where Deschamps had to make the changes and the decision to by-pass the midfield entirely.

I really wonder whether Griezmann was ill as he was outstanding during the tournament both offensively and defensively.  But in the final, he was invissible or worse, giving the ball away or a step too slow to knick the ball away from an attacker as he had been doing all tournament.  He just seemed slow and off.  

[BearcatSA]

5 minutes ago, An Observer said:

I really wonder whether Griezmann was ill as he was outstanding during the tournament both offensively and defensively.  But in the final, he was invissible or worse, giving the ball away or a step too slow to knick the ball away from an attacker as he had been doing all tournament.  He just seemed slow and off.  

I thought that too about Dembele, not a newbie to the big occasion at club level and earlier performances at this tourney but completely lost at sea on Sunday.

[An Observer]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Some players are worth keeping around, some players are worth letting go of, and some are in between. I am very curious to see how that plays out, but I do hope Herdman makes good decisions here, even if some of those decisions may be tough.

These decisions will likely be made after the NL or possibly after the Gold Cup. I will consider that and also omit Vitoria and Hutchinson, as both will definitely be done post-Gold Cup.

Players to let go of:

• Cavallini
• Wotherspoon

This is a little harsh, but we cannot keep everyone around. Both are core players to the team and seem to be well liked, which makes it tough, but when you factor in the age and trajectory of both players, along with how little both have played since 2021, this is where the fat should be trimmed. I will say that Cavallini being a striker may still have a route back if he starts scoring tons of goals at a decent level somewhere, but even then we have players like Ugbo and possibly Jebbison that will need to get blooded sooner than later and you cannot do that while keeping Cavallini around, I don't think. I think Lucas may be the "Tosaint Ricketts" of next cycle - maybe gets a cap or two to round out the numbers, but effectively is finished.

When him and Wotherspoon came on during the World Cup, it felt like a reward or recognition for everything they gave to the program. They deserved to play in the World Cup after everything they gave. Herdman was possibly thinking this will literally be their only chance to play in a World Cup. 

Players to keep:

• Hoilett
• Osorio

These two guys are still very important and that was evident considering how much both played in the World Cup. Both will be kept around out of necessity until their standard drops. I think both will play deep into next cycle and will be the veterans of next cycle, possibly making the World Cup roster depending on how they evolve. Not much else to say really. Osorio has always relied on his brain and Hoilett started doing so years ago when his pace started to fade. I think they'll be useful substitutes in the years ahead. 

In between:

• Piette
• Kaye
• Henry

Here is where it gets really interesting.

Henry is often the first name that comes to mind when it comes to cutting ties with players, but I am not yet convinced we have the depth at CB to say goodbye right away. Yao gets a lot of mentions but he's still pretty green. Campanga is greener still. Cornelius, Kennedy, Miller, Waterman...there's only one right-footed player there. This is why I pause for us to cut him out right now. 

With Piette it was a bit of a surprise not to see him feature in the World Cup, but we had little chance to use him. He arguably could have came on for Larin against Croatia to make up a 3-man midfield, but we took the lead way too early to close up shop and before the half closed we were down a goal.

At any rate, he's still a very solid MLS player who is still at a good age and who has done well for the national team. At the same time, the recent games against teams like Uruguay and Japan suggested he cannot hang with top level players for extended periods. He will eventually give the ball away or get caught in posession. 

This finally brings us to Kaye. Everything I said in the last paragraph about Piette applies to Kaye as well. They are the same age as well, which is to say young enough to have something to give. Both have also seemed to peak as players. At their best they are good enough to fill in gaps at the World Cup level, but at their worst both can be liabilites.

Do we want such players blocking the path of up-and-comers like Kone and Nelson? Kone already has leapfrogged both. Nelson (a more offensive player) may still project as a winger, fine, but there's still Fraser, Choniere, Priso and possibly others who haven't even emereged yet. Herdman may have a challenge on his hands deciding on how to balance loyality and blooding new players....

I would keep everyone you mentioned (other than Hutch and Vitoria if they retire).  Of course, if younger players start to get a lot of club minutes and make a case for a call up, decisions need to be made.  At this stage, Cavallini is better than Jebbison who is riding the pine and those you mentioned in midfiled are better than Nelson, Choniere, Priso who are not full-time starters for their club.  Of course, this could change very quickly and I suspect it will as early as next spring (remember Kone) but players should not be moved out unless there is a better or at least similar younger version available.  I think this way you keep the continuity of the current team but over the next 3 1/2 years, you will gradually see the team evolve with 2 or 3 new younger or dual national players popping up each year so that by 2026 you will see a lot of change from 2022 but they would have seamlessly been integrated.  

[jonovision]

3 hours ago, EJsens1 said:

I don’t think Herdman needs to be replaced anytime soon, but I’m still having trouble digesting some of his tactical decisions but more so his theatrics to the media with his comments in Qatar. It really was bush league stuff. He deserves a chance for the next gold cup and assuming the Copa America happens for us, that too. 
 

3 thing I’ll be looking for the next couple years..

1) Loyalty-there’s a few guys with the roster who shouldn’t be around for ‘26. It’s time to start moving out some old guard and giving other younger guys more prominent roles in the next few tourneys/nation leagues. I think we all know the names.

2) Attendance-I’ll be curious to see if some guys start skipping call ups or a gold cup. Rest is one thing, not caring for your coach is another. If I start seeing that, that will be concerning. 
3) Results-obviously this is important, but good performances in any concacaf tournament is a given and a good performance at the COPA too. If they meet Argentina in their first knock out match, that’s one thing, but if we bow out easily, where we don’t see progression or improvement in play in getting results, the writing is on the wall.

Those are my 3 expectations from Herdman the next few years. If it’s a miss on all 3 by the time COPA wraps up, he’s got to go. You can’t continue on a path like that. Spare me the contract part. They’ll have to eat less than 2 years at that point. It’s not back breaking. Frankly they can’t afford not to move on if what I said above comes to fruition 

 

Regarding #2, there are probably a whole bunch of guys that should no longer be big parts of the NT setup if Canada plans on using the next 4 years to build towards 2026. Hutchinson, obviously, but also Borjan, Vitoria, Hoilett, Wotherspoon, and even a few that are currently on the right side of 30. If we started seeing less of these guys I would not see it as a judgment on Herdman, and if they all kept being involved that would be more of an indictment of the boss than if they stay.

Edited December 20, 2022 by jonovision

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, jonovision said:

Regarding #2, there are probably a whole bunch of guys that should no longer be big parts of the NT setup if Canada plans on using the next 4 years to build towards 2026. Hutchinson, obviously, but also Borjan, Vitoria, Hoilett, Wotherspoon, and even a few that are currently on the right side of 30. If we started seeing less of these guys I would not see it as a judgment on Herdman, and if they all kept being involved that would be more of an indictment of the boss than if they stay.

One of these things is not like the other. Age-wise yes, but I suspect Junior will be the exception and outlast all of these guys, Borjan included. Otherwise I agree. Yes things will generally happen naturally, but there probably should be some intention towards getting younger as we build towards 2026.

Hopefully we can get plenty of friendlies next cycle. It will make this transition easier. Players on the fringes who are just breaking into their club sides can more easily be called up for those, generally speaking. The competitive matches can generally include the players you listed, some of which may be in the process of getting phased out gradually. Others may be less gradually, obviously (Hutch, Vitoria - possibly Wotherspoon).

[ECW]

15 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Its not quite an apples to apples comparison when herdman can put on MAK and an unfit oso, and deschamps can put any of his subs on who are world class. 

To use Deschamps as a measuring stick for herdman is unfair. We arent a nation that can attract and pay coaches of his calibre, we dont have the players that he has at his disposal, and his subs were pretty much like for like replacements. He didn't switch his formation or tactics. He changed the personnel. He wasnt a tactical genius that changed the in game approach. He also has a better squad than argentina so you could argue that losing the game with the better squad makes him a poor manager. (not that i believe 1 game makes or breaks a coach, but if we are roating herdman for croatia, we should roast deschamps for argentina).

If staq didnt go down injured, we likely see a very different game. But losing Staq killed us and theres nothing herdman couldve done to replace him. Herdman tried to replace him by going to a 3 man midfield, which is exactly what everyone says he shouldve done. As soon as we go to a 3 man midfield, we get crushed. The next argument is he left atiba on for too long. However, atiba didnt have the legs to close down the croatia midfield, but piette/MAK dont have the IQ to do it. Either way, the player in the holding position was going to get roasted. At least with Atiba on, we have some leadership skills. Maybe not the correct decision, but bringing on Piette/MAK is also not the answer. Theres not enough respect towards the impact that losing staq made. He is 100% irreplaceable 

To summarize 
-Herdman got the tactics correct for the first 30 minutes or so as evidenced by 1-0. Staq gets injured at the 30th and the wheels fall off. 
-Herdman sees that we cant play a 2 man midfield without staq and he changes to a 3 man midfield. We get roasted.
-Herdman didnt leave hutch in because of favourtism, He kept him in for the experience and lack of viable options. Arguably the wrong decision, but does anyone believe that MAK/Piette at half would have changed the outcome? 

The 2 main criticisms of herdman are:
1. He didnt start a midfield 3 - when he changed to a midfield 3, it didnt work. 
2. He didnt sub out atiba early enough - When he subbed out atiba, things didnt get any better. 

Are these criticisms fair since they didnt work out when he implemented them? We all saw some glaring weaknesses for Canada. Im sure that herdman saw them too. That doesnt mean he has the players to find a solution.

I remember having the thought a few months before the world cup: if Staq is injured and can’t play we’re unlikely to get a result. Well, as it was we should have had a Belgium result (that was unlucky and also maybe a preview of a touch of the nerves/naïveté that followed in the next two matches). 

Edited December 20, 2022 by ECW

[ECW]

2 hours ago, An Observer said:

I really wonder whether Griezmann was ill as he was outstanding during the tournament both offensively and defensively.  But in the final, he was invissible or worse, giving the ball away or a step too slow to knick the ball away from an attacker as he had been doing all tournament.  He just seemed slow and off.  

Yeah, I wondered too. One of those days when life intrudes on football. Not the sort of life that football seems to be like when it’s good. Just the really banal (but important) kind of life. Several guys have the flu (or just had it) and aren’t at the level they need to be to play this match. That’s really what that first 80 or so minutes looked like to me. 

[costarg]

17 hours ago, RJB said:

That a coach has players he trusts and prefers is not exactly a shock. And in this case, it's Griezman, not some journeyman who plays for Brest or something like that. Whereas he played poorly in the final he had a pretty good tournament. And if the first half was the measure, then every french player should have been subbed so singling him out proves little. 

It wasn't a swipe at Griezmann or Deschamps, I was just amazed and shocked anyone could crack that starting 11 for 74 matches in a row!  Anyway you add it up, Griezmann is obviously ridiculously talented and deserving, as well as Deschamps favorite.

 

[sebdeserio]

He gone?????!!!!!!!!

[narduch]

10 minutes ago, sebdeserio said:

He gone?????!!!!!!!!

 

 

[narduch]

Still trying to figure out if it's real.

Guess it explains why no January camp

[EJsens1]

Unless he’s being offered a boat load of money, this is a serious step backwards. Guess we’ll have to see more confirmation 

[InBorjanWeTrust]

This makes 0 sense. I refuse to believe this. Tell me this isn't true. 

[trc2014]

3 minutes ago, EJsens1 said:

Unless he’s being offered a boat load of money, this is a serious step backwards. Guess we’ll have to see more confirmation 

If true it screams at how much working with the CSA is a nightmare.

Edited February 1, 2023 by trc2014

[The Ref]

Just now, InBorjanWeTrust said:

This makes 0 sense. I refuse to believe this. Tell me this isn't true. 

Too bad If it is true.   I hate to think what kind of joker will the CSA hire next.

[Gian-Luca]

The article linked to in the tweet is weird, at least from the bits that I am able to read of it. It says Herdman has been identified as a leading candidate to be the NZ coach, no contracts have been signed it's not a done deal, but the author "understands" that personal terms have been agreed.

 

[Cheeta]

Ooohhhhh.

I'd piss my pants laughing. 😆    

I shit you not. 

[toontownman]

No chance lol. 

[InBorjanWeTrust]

Isn't herdman under contract until 2026?

[toontownman]

People say it's just a Herdman leverage tactic to get a better contract from the CSA.

It's all fun and games until Bontis calls his bluff and hires the dream team of Olivieri and Gale to lead Canada going forward.

[narduch]

5 minutes ago, toontownman said:

No chance lol. 

Sounds like it's a negotiation tactic. Maybe