Octavio Zambrano

[Grizzly]

Zambrano's Independiente defeated Tolima in the semi-finals, playing 2-2 at home and then winning 2-0 on the road. They will be playing Atletico Junior de Barranquilla in the final over the next two weekends. 

So far based on what I have seen from Herdman and Zambrano, I would greatly prefer Zambrano to be national team head coach.

[Unnamed Trialist]

20 hours ago, Grizzly said:

Zambrano's Independiente defeated Tolima in the semi-finals, playing 2-2 at home and then winning 2-0 on the road. They will be playing Atletico Junior de Barranquilla in the final over the next two weekends. 

So far based on what I have seen from Herdman and Zambrano, I would greatly prefer Zambrano to be national team head coach.

The rumours about Zambrano's manner or character are just that, plain rumours, meant to provide the terms of character asassination to justify the new CSA board's move to oust him. Which was more about them undoing Victor's legacy than anything else. And about Herdman playing them. Objectively, Zambrano had more experience and was as knowledgable, as well as having as good a vision as Herdman's. And more valour in implementing them.

And I also think there are some cultural things there, which frankly I do not like at all but won't insist on as they are just feelings I have (we have certain Anglo-Latino shifts in Canadian soccer and not always do we see these dealt with properly). 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Unnamed Trialist

[Keegan]

I mean.. maybe let’s wait for Herdman to concede a goal at least?  I wasn’t a fan of the hire but he has us on track.  Zambrano was alright but his worst performances were worse than anything we’ve seen from Herdman so far (Jamaica and El Salvador).  

[Ansem]

36 minutes ago, Keegan said:

I mean.. maybe let’s wait for Herdman to concede a goal at least?  I wasn’t a fan of the hire but he has us on track.  Zambrano was alright but his worst performances were worse than anything we’ve seen from Herdman so far (Jamaica and El Salvador).  

Still bitter about that loss to Jamaica in the Gold Cup. Wrong guys were on the pitch and that's on the manager.

[Obinna]

44 minutes ago, Keegan said:

I mean.. maybe let’s wait for Herdman to concede a goal at least?  I wasn’t a fan of the hire but he has us on track.  Zambrano was alright but his worst performances were worse than anything we’ve seen from Herdman so far (Jamaica and El Salvador).  

I do agree with the general message here, which is to wait for more data before judging Herdman too strongly either way.

However, I do feel the need to point out two things:

1) Jamaica and el Salvador are historically tougher opponents than anyone we've faced under Herdman, arguably including New Zealand.

Thus, to draw conclusions from the results against our recent opposition, in the context of comparing said results to those against the tougher Jamaica and el Salvador under Zambrano, is perhaps unfair, though I do see the irony of where the latter finds itself in LON qualifying in relation to say, SKN.

2) Secondly, this is perhaps pedantic, but it is ultimately the players who perform. I wanted to point that out. I know the coach is, in part, responsible for player performance, and I know this is what you mean, but I would caution us not to fall into the trap of attributing results to only the coach. I think it was just how you worded that which prompted me to comment, but like I said, I do know what you mean.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Obinna

[Obinna]

10 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Still bitter about that loss to Jamaica in the Gold Cup. Wrong guys were on the pitch and that's on the manager.

Case in point.

Yes, Zambrano in retrospect could have selected quicker centre backs to nullify the speed of Mattocks and Williams, but if Blake doesn't stop that Hoilett strike from distance, perhaps it's 2-2 and we go on to win from there. 

Players ultimately decide the match.

[Bertuzzi44]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

Still bitter about that loss to Jamaica in the Gold Cup. Wrong guys were on the pitch and that's on the manager.

Yeah but it was sure nice to be in the quarter finals after 3 straight group stage exits right!

And OZ was only just over a year on the job. 

[BrennanFan]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

Still bitter about that loss to Jamaica in the Gold Cup. Wrong guys were on the pitch and that's on the manager.

I thought so too at the time.  Cavallini, Osorio or Bernier, James. 

We played well and we were dangerous going forward but we were very disorganized defending the counters and unfortunately due to Herdmans aversion for friendlies, I doubt we will get much practice at defending counter attacks until the next Gold Cup itself. 

 

[Corazon]

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

I do agree with the general message here, which is to wait for more data before judging Herdman too strongly either way.

However, I do feel the need to point out two things:

1) Jamaica and el Salvador are historically tougher opponents than anyone we've faced under Herdman, arguably including New Zealand.

Thus, to draw conclusions from the results against our recent opposition, in the context of comparing said results to those against the tougher Jamaica and el Salvador under Zambrano, is perhaps unfair, though I do see the irony of where the latter finds itself in LON qualifying in relation to say, SKN.

2) Secondly, this is perhaps pedantic, but it is ultimately the players who perform. I wanted to point that out. I know the coach is, in part, responsible for player performance, and I know this is what you mean, but I would caution us not to fall into the trap of attributing results to only the coach. I think it was just how you worded that which prompted me to comment, but like I said, I do know what you mean.

I think we can all agree that we currently have far more talent now than we did at that Gold Cup.  Frankly I think the way we attacked and played at that Gold Cup and against tougher competition, that we would have been more successful against any of the teams we have played this year (in terms of goals for and against & in regards to style).

I am not taking away from Herdman and what he has done this year.  He has cap tied some promising young talent.  Whether or not this had anything to do with him as the manager or perhaps just timing?  It doesn't really matter because it happened under Herdman.

Herdman has been successful this year but I thought Zambrano played better soccer with much less talent in a bigger tournament than Herdman has done against some of these CONCACAF minnows this year.  Plus I also know Zambrano was trying to change Canadian soccer culture and trying to tap historically "untapped" leagues/players.  The idea in recent years was that National team players essentially have to come from MLS academies (which have their flaws in recruiting already).

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, Keegan said:

I mean.. maybe let’s wait for Herdman to concede a goal at least?  I wasn’t a fan of the hire but he has us on track.  Zambrano was alright but his worst performances were worse than anything we’ve seen from Herdman so far (Jamaica and El Salvador).  

So let's follow Keegan's logic and totally ignore the quality of the rivals and the importance of the competition. If Borjan had 6 scored against him by PSG, and Leutwiler had a goal against in the FA Cup, then Leutwiler is our man because Borjan's performances are "worse than anything we've seen" from Leutwiler. 

And then let's find a guy tearing it up in L10, and make him our starting striker on the basis of goals scored.

I honestly read Keegan's post thinking it was a joke then realized he was serious. Are you aware, just in case you ski, that black runs are harder than green ones, and that if someone goes down a green fast it does not mean he is a better skier? Just asking.

[Keegan]

Of course it has been low quality UT, no discounting that BUT it is what it is.  He HAS achieved records this year.  Biggest win, tied most home goals and we beat st Kitts away when we struggled there last time.  Altogether we could be better and we haven’t been truly tested but facts are facts.  

I don’t think Zambrano lit the world alight.. let’s see how this gold cup pans out and then talk is all I’m saying.

[RS]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

So let's follow Keegan's logic and totally ignore the quality of the rivals and the importance of the competition. If Borjan had 6 scored against him by PSG, and Leutwiler had a goal against in the FA Cup, then Leutwiler is our man because Borjan's performances are "worse than anything we've seen" from Leutwiler. 

And then let's find a guy tearing it up in L10, and make him our starting striker on the basis of goals scored.

I honestly read Keegan's post thinking it was a joke then realized he was serious. Are you aware, just in case you ski, that black runs are harder than green ones, and that if someone goes down a green fast it does not mean he is a better skier? Just asking.

It's almost as if comparing the Gold Cup to Nations League qualifying is a non-starter, and Keegan has a point about waiting until Herdman's team faces better competition before judging.

Edited December 6, 2018 by RS

[Keegan]

1 hour ago, RS said:

It's almost as if comparing the Gold Cup to Nations League qualifying is a non-starter, and Keegan has a point about waiting until Herdman's team faces better competition before judging.

Well if Zambrano gets a lot of credit for his Gold cup where our one win was against French Guiana then I guess we’ll see how we do in March.  I mean it’s only fair.

I too liked Zambrano but to try to say he was a better option based on what we’ve seen at this point is a little premature.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, RS said:

It's almost as if comparing the Gold Cup to Nations League qualifying is a non-starter, and Keegan has a point about waiting until Herdman's team faces better competition before judging.

But not facing it is Herdman's choice. Hey, he climbed a shitty little mountain, and we have to got to give him credit for not having the balls to try to scale a harder one. But he sure went up that hill fast! The logic is totally skewed, as I see it. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

22 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Well if Zambrano gets a lot of credit for his Gold cup where our one win was against French Guiana then I guess we’ll see how we do in March.  I mean it’s only fair.

I too liked Zambrano but to try to say he was a better option based on what we’ve seen at this point is a little premature.

At this rate, premature is going to be Canada's new normal under Herdman. 

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

But not facing it is Herdman's choice. Hey, he climbed a shitty little mountain, and we have to got to give him credit for not having the balls to try to scale a harder one. But he sure went up that hill fast! The logic is totally skewed, as I see it. 

Something is skewed and I don't think it's Keegan's logic

[Kent]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

But not facing it is Herdman's choice. Hey, he climbed a shitty little mountain, and we have to got to give him credit for not having the balls to try to scale a harder one. But he sure went up that hill fast! The logic is totally skewed, as I see it. 

Nobody is saying you have to give him credit yet. We are saying it makes sense to wait for something meaningful to complain about before you complain.

[Keegan]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

But not facing it is Herdman's choice. Hey, he climbed a shitty little mountain, and we have to got to give him credit for not having the balls to try to scale a harder one. But he sure went up that hill fast! The logic is totally skewed, as I see it. 

So you’re saying Herdman chose for us to play 3 minnows with no friendlies other than NZ?  I think we all know that is false. 

Even if we did assume that to be true, the one friendly was a tougher start than our past two managers who faced Mauritania and Curacao respectively... so I guess Floro and Zambrano had no balls either.  

As Kent said.. he doesn’t deserve credit or an award.  He simply hasn’t screwed up as of yet, so bashing is premature. 

[Bison44]

 

25 minutes ago, Keegan said:

So you’re saying Herdman chose for us to play 3 minnows with no friendlies other than NZ?  I think we all know that is false. 

Even if we did assume that to be true, the one friendly was a tougher start than our past two managers who faced Mauritania and Curacao respectively... so I guess Floro and Zambrano had no balls either.  

As Kent said.. he doesn’t deserve credit or an award.  He simply hasn’t screwed up as of yet, so bashing is premature. 

The only thing is if you promise a lot more...then u better do more than just not screwing up.  Listen again to the multiple interviews about all the sweeping changes and innovations etc he talked about.  I try to resist the urge to dump on Herdman, but Zambrano got canned so he could come in and do wonderful things.  Its been almost a year, lets start seeing something, a wonderful constructive camp poutine with a competitive friendly would be a nice start.  

[Bertuzzi44]

I also liked Zambrano's desire to play games, and get the squad together.

Herdman has shown no such drive. He isn't pushing for more games, if anything he's fine with no games. To me that smacks of complacency, like he knows his job with the CSA is safe and "no games necessary" is the party line.

[PhillyJawn-guy]

I wonder if Zambrano had been hired earlier, like the round before the Hex, Canada might've made the Hex and qualified for Russia. Canada is clearly better than Honduras and Panama and would've given less embarrassing efforts especially compared to the latter.

[SpecialK]

Victor’s guy - Oz and Reed’s guy - Herdman

 

[Corazon]

6 hours ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

I also liked Zambrano's desire to play games, and get the squad together.

Herdman has shown no such drive. He isn't pushing for more games, if anything he's fine with no games. To me that smacks of complacency, like he knows his job with the CSA is safe and "no games necessary" is the party line.

http://www.sportingnews.com/ca/soccer/news/canada-soccer-john-herdman-canmnt-play-more-games-concacaf-nations-league/1js0e4nh8r5od159rcuzu6a03o

As the Herdman states "Canada not interested in playing more games, yet".  A lot of excuses in this article.  I'm not saying that these decisions are Herdman's own decisions.

[Unnamed Trialist]

11 hours ago, Keegan said:

So you’re saying Herdman chose for us to play 3 minnows with no friendlies other than NZ?  I think we all know that is false. 

Even if we did assume that to be true, the one friendly was a tougher start than our past two managers who faced Mauritania and Curacao respectively... so I guess Floro and Zambrano had no balls either.  

As Kent said.. he doesn’t deserve credit or an award.  He simply hasn’t screwed up as of yet, so bashing is premature. 

Herdman did in fact choose to not play friendlies vs. harder opponents and be satisfied with ingratiating his native land and then playing minnows in a new fangled tournaments. That is true, actually. Unless you are arguing that he has so little pull with the CSA that he can't ask for more. Which would mean he is being blackballed from the start? We all know that is false: he has chosen to not test us this last year. Low-lying survival tactics, like a politician in his first year of a mandate.

And actually, with Floro and then Zambrano, we played Mauritania twice in a few days, when their ranking was only slightly lower than New Zealands, and when they were on a run, they'd risen like 60 spots in the previous year. So that was two games, not just one. Curaçao, if you'd check, had a higher ranking than New Zealand. So you cannot argue that NZ was a tougher start, that is patently false.

But that is not what worries folks. What concerns us is that we have seen Canada play games in lead-ups to World Cups vs. participating teams, even top teams. And we did not. We have seen Canada play teams ranked well above us in friendlies. And we haven't. We have seen Canada at least have the ambition to try our mettle against harder opponents, which is how any team learns, improves, and can be properly evaluated. And we haven't. 

For me, I am fine with waiting to see how we do in the Gold Cup, and do not even ask for results, as it could depend on how the tournament goes, the draw, and so on. So I think I am being fair. But I also think it is fair to say that Herdman is like a kid playing hide and seek, and when all the rest have gone in for lunch, he is still cowering behind a bush. And people like you are praising him for winning at hide and seek. 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Unnamed Trialist

[Corazon]

9 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Herdman did in fact choose to not play friendlies vs. harder opponents and be satisfied with ingratiating his native land and then playing minnows in a new fangled tournaments. That is true, actually. Unless you are arguing that he has so little pull with the CSA that he can't ask for more. Which would mean he is being blackballed from the start? We all know that is false: he has chosen to not test us this last year. Low-lying survival tactics, like a politician in his first year of a mandate.

And actually, with Floro and then Zambrano, we played Mauritania twice in a few days, when their ranking was only slightly lower than New Zealands, and when they were on a run, they'd risen like 60 spots in the previous year. So that was two games, not just one. Curaçao, if you'd check, had a higher ranking than New Zealand. So you cannot argue that NZ was a tougher start, that is patently false.

But that is not what worries folks. What concerns us is that we have seen Canada play games in lead-ups to World Cups vs. participating teams, even top teams. And we did not. We have seen Canada play teams ranked well above us in friendlies. And we haven't. We have seen Canada at least have the ambition to try our mettle against harder opponents, which is how any team learns, improves, and can be properly evaluated. And we haven't. 

For me, I am fine with waiting to see how we do in the Gold Cup, and do not even ask for results, as it could depend on how the tournament goes, the draw, and so on. So I think I am being fair. But I also think it is fair to say that Herdman is like a kid playing hide and seek, and when all the rest have gone in for lunch, he is still cowering behind a bush. And people like you are praising him for winning at hide and seek. 

Herdman has cap tied several key players so far this year but by only playing 4 games in a calendar year IS NOT going to attract all the young talented dual nationals we have right now.

For instance lets look at Portugal & England (for no particular reason ?).  Although this could be done with many of our dual nationals.

2018 Canada MNT: Friendlies 1 game vs New Zealand - CONCACAF NL 3 - US Virgin Islands, Dominca & St Kitts; Total - 4 Games

2018 Canada Men's Youth: Failure to Qualify to U20 World Cup (Most dual nationals too old for this tournament)

2018 Portugal MNT: Friendlies 7 games vs Egypt, Netherlands, Tunisia, Belgium, Algeria, Croatia & Scotland - FIFA World Cup 4 games vs Spain, Morocco, Iran & Uruguay - UEFA NL 4 games vs Italy & Poland twice & Semifinal bound in 2019; Total 15 Games

2018 Portugal U21: 8 Euro Qualifying Games Alone

2018 England MNT: 6 Friendlies vs Netherlands, Italy, Nigeria, Costa Rica, Switzerland & USA - FIFA World Cup 7 games vs Tunisia, Panama, Belgium, Colombia, Sweden, Croatia & Belgium - UEFA NL 4 games vs Spain & Croatia twice & Semifinal bound in 2019; Total 17 Games

2018 England U21: 5 Euro Qualifying Games and a Trip to U21 Euros in 2019.

We all know there are many factors and reasons for these differences.  These are long standing historically National Teams which we are not.  These programs have far greater funding than we have.  These teams have far less travel time for European friendlies.  I understand it is a process and that there are many factors in play but I can't imagine our program looking attractive to dual nationals.  Games & Camps are important!

The irony in this whole argument is that 2018 was arguably our most successful season in cap tying.