Canada and the 2024 Copa America

[Bigandy]

11 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I think we need someone to stamp an identity of some kind, starting with the back, and then provide outlets for our attacking players.  I agree we have the fitness and pace for some kind of gegenpressing.  The one that loses out in that set up is Larin. Davies maybe too, if at LB, he has most of the tools at a world class level but the instant - mid to long range passing is not his inclination. We can do it out of the current set up, but David would need to be up front for me and we need an at least all-action midfielder instead. 

4-2-3-1 With an aggressive counter attacking philosophy. 
david
Millar kone/ali buchanan 
choiniere/kone staq
Davies miller bombito johnston. 

Johnston to stay back more and davies to get forward. choiniere (if starting) fills in for davies gaps at LB so we cant get countered too hard. Back line shifts to a 3 quite regularly as well to compensate for davies. 

shaf comes off the bench if the game is still wide open. If not, larin and corbeanu come on. JRR/Ugbo as a last roll of the dice if we need a goal. 

Bombito is the biggest risk in the line up but I dont feel any more confident with waterman at RCB. 

[costarg]

 

2 hours ago, Kadenge said:

We had a great performance vs Belgium and a decent game vs Morocco (Borjan aside) but Canada has not looked the same since. We won vs Panama but overall didn't play well. Not up to par  vs USA. Got crushed vs Japan, blew a 3-1 lead vs Jamaica in less than 45 mins at home. Struggled vs T&T to get the win. Yes we have some high end talent but we need to improve our overall team play, especially our team defence if we want to progress in Copa. I understand the pessimism and I was one of the few who was optimistic during  WCQ.

Yup.  It's even more evident if we remove the results/scores.  There's been an obvious decrease in style, effectiveness and synergy.  We just don't look as good as we did since qualifying for WC.  We were playing really well 6 months before WC and have gone off the rails since.  A few notable points that line-up with the timeline: Herdman developing an edge end extreme arrogance.  The cancelled friendlies/CSA debacle.  Over confident, crazy formations (2 strikers and 2 mids vs better opposition). 

It seems we're playing one game at a time, there is no identity or system.  We just try to throw theoretical solutions to who ever our opponent is without playing to our strengths.  We already don't play enough, changing up the system every match with risky tactics and position assignments is not gonna work.   WCQ the team was making all formations work and there was obvious buy-in by all players.  No formation seem to be clicking right now, a lot of that can be down to unfamiliarity, but some of the stuff out there is basics, no one is covering for each other, too much individualism and hero ball.  CB's attacking with a 1 goal lead, both WB's playing too forward, no mid playing with defensive awareness.  

[Kadenge]

Sanchez has been decent for Inter as a sub in the games I have watched. He definitely can hurt us.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

21 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

4-2-3-1 With an aggressive counter attacking philosophy. 
david
Millar kone/ali buchanan 
choiniere/kone staq
Davies miller bombito johnston. 

Johnston to stay back more and davies to get forward. choiniere (if starting) fills in for davies gaps at LB so we cant get countered too hard. Back line shifts to a 3 quite regularly as well to compensate for davies. 

shaf comes off the bench if the game is still wide open. If not, larin and corbeanu come on. JRR/Ugbo as a last roll of the dice if we need a goal. 

Bombito is the biggest risk in the line up but I dont feel any more confident with waterman at RCB. 

As I said, it excites me overall.  But Davies there is huge concern for me.  When he picking up the ball (with Canada especially) he wants to run with it, which is what he is good at.  That's not the best use of the ball.  He doesn't want to make the quick pass and he's not as good at it. 

 

David

Davies, Kone, Buchanan 

Eustaquio, Ahmed 

Adekugbe (MIller?)  Cornelius, Bombito, Johnston

 

Not the traditional set up but 

Millar David

Davies, Choniere, Kone, Buchanan

Eustaquio 

Miller Waterman Bombito

 

Millar can drift wide if he wants, does not need to always be symetrical, Eustaquio's runs wasted a bit but his mid to long passing need there.  Choniere there to run at people all day.  And then decent passers out of the back, Johnston if Bombitio doesn't develop. Davies is in people's faces all the time and can run immediately. 

 

Are we silly for leaving out our leading scorer?

 

Edited March 27 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Watchmen]

7 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Copa América has tradition, but it's normally been every two years. So it's less exceptional. Then they're only 10 teams, you don't even have to qualify. To their credit it's quite competitive. But I think exceptionality helps the reputation of the Euros, apart from being spaced between World Cups, it gauges the state of a bigger chunk of world football in those off periods.

Then, as well argued, we don't have major immigration from S America and in the States it's relatively low as well.

My understanding is that the Copa also took a step back in importance when they changed their WCQ schedule to "home and away vs everyone", as it was a better indicator of the "best" team in CONMEBOL.

But I think the shift back to every 4 years* (give or take a Centennial tournament and an alignment with the Euro) has started to raise it's importance, and the inclusion of the US and Mexico (who I know were regular invitees anyway) has helped raise it's profile. It's why I think a joint tournament moving forward just makes the most sense for everyone.

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

As I said, it excites me overall.  But Davies there is huge concern for me.  When he picking up the ball (with Canada especially) he wants to run with it, which is what he is good at.  That's not the best use of the ball.  He doesn't want to make the quick pass and he's not as good at it. 

 

David

Davies, Kone, Buchanan 

Eustaquio, Ahmed 

Adekugbe (MIller?)  Cornelius, Bombito, Johnston

 

Not the traditional set up but 

Millar David

Davies, Choniere, Kone, Buchanan

Eustaquio 

Miller Waterman Bombito

 

Millar can drift wide if he wants, does not need to always be symetrical, Eustaquio's runs wasted a bit but his mid to long passing need there.  Choniere there to run at people all day.  And then decent passers out of the back, Johnston if Bombitio doesn't develop. Davies is in people's faces all the time and can run immediately. 

 

Are we silly for leaving out our leading scorer?

 

Oh man. Both lineups are good. Especially curious on a counter attacking set up with millar and david. 

It feels so silly to leave out larin but I feel like theres going to be a time the national team evolves into a 1 striker formation and David provides so much more to the team compared to larin who does less but still scores. 

Against T and T, I was tempted to play 4-3-3 with david at #9 because larins too static against a low block....And then he's the reason we score to qualify.   

[Unnamed Trialist]

54 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

My understanding is that the Copa also took a step back in importance when they changed their WCQ schedule to "home and away vs everyone", as it was a better indicator of the "best" team in CONMEBOL.

But I think the shift back to every 4 years* (give or take a Centennial tournament and an alignment with the Euro) has started to raise it's importance, and the inclusion of the US and Mexico (who I know were regular invitees anyway) has helped raise it's profile. It's why I think a joint tournament moving forward just makes the most sense for everyone.

Then something we don't always grasp in Canada: we're in the Americas, in the sense that a major Americas tournament should be something we'd embrace. It's so boring to play these repetitive Gold Cups in the US. I hardly think the US or Mexico are that thrilled, and it doesn't prepare them much for World Cups. 

Add another 4 CONCACAF teams if it feels too exclusive for the 7-10th in our region.

[gigi riva]

The opening game of the Copa Between Canada v Argentina , I will be very interested to see  what the viewership numbers will be here in Canada with TSN ,  compared to what the Euro Numbers will be for the same day  also on TSN 

[CanadaFan123]

1 minute ago, gigi riva said:

The opening game of the Copa Between Canada v Argentina , I will be very interested to see  what the viewership numbers will be here in Canada with TSN ,  compared to what the Euro Numbers will be for the same day  also on TSN 

If they advertise it I’d estimate that we’re going to see a number that eclipses World Cup qualifying. 

[gigi riva]

23 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Then something we don't always grasp in Canada: we're in the Americas, in the sense that a major Americas tournament should be something we'd embrace. It's so boring to play these repetitive Gold Cups in the US. I hardly think the US or Mexico are that thrilled, and it doesn't prepare them much for World Cups. 

Add another 4 CONCACAF teams if it feels too exclusive for the 7-10th in our region.

I just wish we were playing these games in a Buenos Aires, Rosario, Rio, Sao Paulo , Lima , Santiago , Bogata, Instead of a American city. At least the atmosphere in those cities will be very well charged and authentic

[Watchmen]

23 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Then something we don't always grasp in Canada: we're in the Americas, in the sense that a major Americas tournament should be something we'd embrace. It's so boring to play these repetitive Gold Cups in the US. I hardly think the US or Mexico are that thrilled, and it doesn't prepare them much for World Cups. 

Add another 4 CONCACAF teams if it feels too exclusive for the 7-10th in our region.

I'll never forget the year the US sent an A Team to the Gold Cup and a C Team to the Copa. Just totally backwards thinking. But in their minds it was more important to win a lesser tournament then gain the experience of a much tougher one. And then they wonder why they're unprepared so often for the World Cup.

But yeah, using the Nations League as a qualifier for the Copa made that more interesting to me. Alternating WC/Copa qualifiers (plus GC qualifying for some teams) would actually put a number of meaningful games on the schedule for smaller nations in the region.

[gigi riva]

2 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

If they advertise it I’d estimate that we’re going to see a number that eclipses World Cup qualifying. 

I remember The World Cup qualifying numbers  which were on Sportsnet  increased each game we played , I think the highest was    1 million vs Mexico  and they I belive averaged about 900 000  per game

[costarg]

2 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

But Davies there is huge concern for me. 

I see what you are saying, but I fail to understand what the "concern" is exactly?  I'd love to understand better.

Do you feel most of our attacking needs to go through Davies?  Cause I feel the complete opposite.  My instinct tells me we'd be even better if we didn't rely so much on his individual skill.  Sure he's our most dangerous guy, but he is dangerous and productive everywhere on the field.  He doesn't need to lineup up top to be effective, that's the beauty of his skill.  Honesty, we've seen how well we play when he wasn't there, there was no shortage of goals, even against the tough teams.  We have a lot of strong attacking players from the middle and wings.  Millar, Kone, Stache, Tajon have all proven to be hand fulls for D's, not even mentioning our strikers.  We get the best out of Davies and our 11 playing him at his best position, where he can play several roles, not just hero-ball which seems to become his default when playing at LW & LWB.

Totally agree about Larin, unfortunate, but I feel we would be more balanced and stronger with him starting on the bench.

Edited March 27 by costarg

[Kent]

Full disclosure. I haven't watched a second of Chile or Peru since whenever their last World Cup appearances were, so this is all just my gut feelings and can safely be ignored, but I'm saying it anyway.

I think our World Cup group was tougher than our Copa group is, but I'm less confident in our ability to get out of the group in the Copa than I was for the World Cup. For the World Cup I thought it was about a coin flip chance.

As for the Copa America in general. I don't know if it has any real impact on it's viewing numbers, but man this tournament needs a regular schedule. Going from this edition back in time there have been gaps between tournaments of 3 years, 2 years, 3 years, 1 year, 4 years, 4 years, 3 years, 2 years. If you go back further there is an era where it was every 2 years for a while, every 4 years for a while, even every year for about a decade, but it never sticks to one frequency for all that long. Throw in the fact that there isn't qualifying (for the South American teams) and I wonder if that plays a role in the "Oh, there's a Copa America this year?" phenomenon. If it always goes head to head with the Euro, even though people will be fixated on the Euro, people will get to know that they happen at the same time and will know when a Copa is coming.

Anyways, I'd be happy with there being a CONMEBOL only Copa every 4 years, and a joint CONMEBOL/CONCACAF Copa America every 4 years as well. They should have different names though ideally. If CONMEBOL is happy to give up their South American only version, I don't really care, but I don't want CONCACAF to get rid of the Gold Cup (but I would like for it to go to every 4 years instead of every other year).

[Ottawafan]

There was a zero percent chance we were ever getting out of our group at the World Cup.

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, gigi riva said:

I just wish we were playing these games in a Buenos Aires, Rosario, Rio, Sao Paulo , Lima , Santiago , Bogata, Instead of a American city. At least the atmosphere in those cities will be very well charged and authentic

The atmosphere in Atlanta, Georgia will be great rest assured. As for authenticity, I'll ask the Argentina supporters how genuine their cheers are. 

Edited March 27 by Macksam

[Kent]

42 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

There was a zero percent chance we were ever getting out of our group at the World Cup.

My biggest reason for thinking we had a decent chance of getting out of our World Cup group was that it felt like we were on par with USA and Mexico at the time, and those teams regularly get out of the group at the World Cup. But, with the way the tournament went, it's fair to say that was likely pretty naive of me. Or you could say if Davies scores the PK and Borjan doesn't cough up the first goal to Morocco, it might have been a different tournament.

[Ivan]

1 hour ago, gigi riva said:

I remember The World Cup qualifying numbers  which were on Sportsnet  increased each game we played , I think the highest was    1 million vs Mexico  and they I belive averaged about 900 000  per game

I thought the viewing numbers were higher than that?

[SpursFlu]

54 minutes ago, Macksam said:

The atmosphere in Atlanta, Georgia will be great rest assured. As for authenticity, I'll ask the Argentina supporters how genuine their cheers are. 

Maybe we can help make it authentic 

Mil goals mil goals

Mil goals mil goals mil goals

Gretzky scored a million goals, Maradona did Cocaine 

Edited March 27 by SpursFlu

[Watchmen]

2 minutes ago, Ivan said:

I thought the viewing numbers were higher than that?

Jamaica was at 1.64m, Mexico was at 1.15m, and everything else was below a million.  World Cup ratings were good though.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 hours ago, costarg said:

I see what you are saying, but I fail to understand what the "concern" is exactly?  I'd love to understand better.

Do you feel most of our attacking needs to go through Davies?  Cause I feel the complete opposite.  My instinct tells me we'd be even better if we didn't rely so much on his individual skill.  Sure he's our most dangerous guy, but he is dangerous and productive everywhere on the field.  He doesn't need to lineup up top to be effective, that's the beauty of his skill.  Honesty, we've seen how well we play when he wasn't there, there was no shortage of goals, even against the tough teams.  We have a lot of strong attacking players from the middle and wings.  Millar, Kone, Stache, Tajon have all proven to be hand fulls for D's, not even mentioning our strikers.  We get the best out of Davies and our 11 playing him at his best position, where he can play several roles, not just hero-ball which seems to become his default when playing at LW & LWB.

Totally agree about Larin, unfortunate, but I feel we would be more balanced and stronger with him starting on the bench.

 

I did say right after what the concern was - in a gegenpress or counter-attacking system - your first inclination from that position should be to pass, not dribble the length of the field - that's not his inclincation.  You did not address that but there is more. 

Especially if you are going to counter, you are down-right stupid to put your (world-class) fastest player, who can score goals, in your back line. 

Edit: I guess I should add, I agree with you on the problem of hero-ball.  But you seem to be seeing fullback as a magical cure for it.  It would just be more dangerous.  Someone, like players or coaches at Bayern apparently, needs to tell him his role and somehow make him generally stick to it, while giving him outlets for offence.  And also inplanting a system where people shift to cover. 

David needs service, his most creative aspect is his movement.  He is not generally creating his own chance.  Same for Larin. So yes Davies is by far our most important offensive weapon, followed by Buchanan when he's on. So no you don't waste that offense.  

He is not world-class dangerous or productive from left back.  He has never scored a goal for Bayern (CL and league) that was not at least 1 of 3 they scored, mostly more than that..   He only has 7 in 127 appearances so I can list the scores - (6-0, 6-1, 5-2, 5-0, 3-3 (playing on the wing), 5-3, 3-2).  Those obviously came generally in dominant offensive displays where everybody scores and none of them are in big games.   We as Canada don't get those games beyond Concacaf minnows. 

On the other hand he scores at a decent striker's rate for us - 1 in 3.  There are minnows in there of course but he also scored against USA, Panama, Jamaica, and Croatia. None of those at left back. 

At leftback, he has 1 assist per every 6.3 appearances in top leagues.  If we want to compare what we talking about  - attacking formations with 4 at the back, the world-class (or slightly less) numbers are better.   Alexander-Arnold has 1/3.5 games, Hakimi has 1/5.3, Trippier 5.4,  Robertson 4.5 (just Premier League, he has some lower league stuff that would inflate it).  Again Bayern have been a dominant offence-minded team in many of their games, he should be getting more assists if he were a key part of their offence. 

 

People maybe forget why he was initially labelled "best in world." It was defensive.  Bayern were swash-buckling about scoring more goals than the best teams in world and winning the Champions League.  They could afford to do that because he was plugging gaps and picking up the pieces.   While, to be fair, providing an outlet. Again we don't have their luxuries. 

Wingback or winger for Canada for me.   The only other scenario would be if we were actually parking the bus to preserve a lead which is super dangerous.  But again you are silly not having him up there pressing and countering. 

Edited March 27 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, gigi riva said:

The opening game of the Copa Between Canada v Argentina , I will be very interested to see  what the viewership numbers will be here in Canada with TSN ,  compared to what the Euro Numbers will be for the same day  also on TSN 

It is a bit hard to compare as it is a midweek, and the Euros start midweek too, so you'd have to be watching during working hours in Canada. While Copa America is at optimal times for Canadian viewers. And terrible times for European viewers, except some weekend games.

Still, you may be right that there is a lot of Euro interest: on the 20th of June in the Euros we have:

Slovenia vs Serbia (Munich, kick-off 2pm UK time)
Denmark vs England (Frankfurt, kick-off 5pm UK time)
Spain vs Italy (Gelsenkirchen, kick-off 8pm UK time)

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

37 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Jamaica was at 1.64m, Mexico was at 1.15m, and everything else was below a million.  World Cup ratings were good though.

Feels kind of good we sort of built as we went along.  It felt like a thankless task on social media trying to get people to get excited, come out, or even watch on TV. 

[Bigandy]

46 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

 

I did say right after what the concern was - in a gegenpress or counter-attacking system - your first inclination from that position should be to pass, not dribble the length of the field - that's not his inclincation.  You did not address that but there is more. 

Especially if you are going to counter, you are down-right stupid to put your (world-class) fastest player, who can score goals, in your back line. 

Edit: I guess I should add, I agree with you on the problem of hero-ball.  But you seem to be seeing fullback as a magical cure for it.  It would just be more dangerous.  Someone, like players or coaches at Bayern apparently, needs to tell him his role and somehow make him generally stick to it, while giving him outlets for offence.  And also inplanting a system where people shift to cover. 

David needs service, his most creative aspect is his movement.  He is not generally creating his own chance.  Same for Larin. So yes Davies is by far our most important offensive weapon, followed by Buchanan when he's on. So no you don't waste that offense.  

He is not world-class dangerous or productive from left back.  He has never scored a goal for Bayern (CL and league) that was not at least 1 of 3 they scored, mostly more than that..   He only has 7 in 127 appearances so I can list the scores - (6-0, 6-1, 5-2, 5-0, 3-3 (playing on the wing), 5-3, 3-2).  Those obviously came generally in dominant offensive displays where everybody scores and none of them are in big games.   We as Canada don't get those games beyond Concacaf minnows. 

On the other hand he scores at a decent striker's rate for us - 1 in 3.  There are minnows in there of course but he also scored against USA, Panama, Jamaica, and Croatia. None of those at left back. 

At leftback, he has 1 assist per every 6.3 appearances in top leagues.  If we want to compare what we talking about  - attacking formations with 4 at the back, the world-class (or slightly less) numbers are better.   Alexander-Arnold has 1/3.5 games, Hakimi has 1/5.3, Trippier 5.4,  Robertson 4.5 (just Premier League, he has some lower league stuff that would inflate it).  Again Bayern have been a dominant offence-minded team in many of their games, he should be getting more assists if he were a key part of their offence. 

 

People maybe forget why he was initially labelled "best in world." It was defensive.  Bayern were swash-buckling about scoring more goals than the best teams in world and winning the Champions League.  They could afford to do that because he was plugging gaps and picking up the pieces.   While, to be fair, providing an outlet. Again we don't have their luxuries. 

Wingback or winger for Canada for me.   The only other scenario would if we were actually parking the bus to preserve a lead which is super dangerous.  But again you are silly not having him up there pressing and countering. 

Woah. Good post. Love the stats to back up your opinion! I thought wingback, leftback, then winger is his positional priority. After reading this, Im more inclined to switch winger and leftback. 

[costarg]

4 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

 

I did say right after what the concern was - in a gegenpress or counter-attacking system - your first inclination from that position should be to pass, not dribble the length of the field - that's not his inclincation.  You did not address that but there is more. 

Especially if you are going to counter, you are down-right stupid to put your (world-class) fastest player, who can score goals, in your back line. 

Edit: I guess I should add, I agree with you on the problem of hero-ball.  But you seem to be seeing fullback as a magical cure for it.  It would just be more dangerous.  Someone, like players or coaches at Bayern apparently, needs to tell him his role and somehow make him generally stick to it, while giving him outlets for offence.  And also inplanting a system where people shift to cover. 

David needs service, his most creative aspect is his movement.  He is not generally creating his own chance.  Same for Larin. So yes Davies is by far our most important offensive weapon, followed by Buchanan when he's on. So no you don't waste that offense.  

He is not world-class dangerous or productive from left back.  He has never scored a goal for Bayern (CL and league) that was not at least 1 of 3 they scored, mostly more than that..   He only has 7 in 127 appearances so I can list the scores - (6-0, 6-1, 5-2, 5-0, 3-3 (playing on the wing), 5-3, 3-2).  Those obviously came generally in dominant offensive displays where everybody scores and none of them are in big games.   We as Canada don't get those games beyond Concacaf minnows. 

On the other hand he scores at a decent striker's rate for us - 1 in 3.  There are minnows in there of course but he also scored against USA, Panama, Jamaica, and Croatia. None of those at left back. 

At leftback, he has 1 assist per every 6.3 appearances in top leagues.  If we want to compare what we talking about  - attacking formations with 4 at the back, the world-class (or slightly less) numbers are better.   Alexander-Arnold has 1/3.5 games, Hakimi has 1/5.3, Trippier 5.4,  Robertson 4.5 (just Premier League, he has some lower league stuff that would inflate it).  Again Bayern have been a dominant offence-minded team in many of their games, he should be getting more assists if he were a key part of their offence. 

 

People maybe forget why he was initially labelled "best in world." It was defensive.  Bayern were swash-buckling about scoring more goals than the best teams in world and winning the Champions League.  They could afford to do that because he was plugging gaps and picking up the pieces.   While, to be fair, providing an outlet. Again we don't have their luxuries. 

Wingback or winger for Canada for me.   The only other scenario would be if we were actually parking the bus to preserve a lead which is super dangerous.  But again you are silly not having him up there pressing and countering. 

Thanks for sharing the stats, but it's kinda comparing apples and canolis.  His stats don't scream offence for Bayern because they don't need or use him that way.  We've all seen and commented that he's eased off the offensive runs after the first 2 seasons or so.  My 2 German Bayern pals tell me he was asked to do that.  Comparing that to his stats for Canada, where we want him to make those runs and combine with the offence isn't really proving anything.  On top of that, it still requires wholesale changes to the formation and system, because it's just not working and clicking at the moment.  If we really want to play counter attack, he should not be playing WB anyway, it would imply he be at least close to the box defending.  He should be further up the field at LW if we really wanna maximize him in a counter attacking system. 

I was totally sold on WB Davies until the evidence came in.  I feel Davies at WB takes away the effectiveness of having him at LB and/or LW and only has the drawbacks.  He isn't as effective and neither is the rest of the team, perhaps another coach and system could fix it, but not in our recent WB system.

Either way, totally respect your view on this, mine just differs.  I don't feel everything needs to go through Davies and I don't think we should alter the lineup to accommodate him.  For me, our best 11, with everyone at their club spots, is in a back 4 and Davies at LB. 

We can try a poll on here and see what the general consensus on the forum is.  Not that it really says or means much, we haven't seen him play LB for CANMNT so it all remains theoretical until a coach tries it.  Plus, if we went by this board, Borjan and Vitoria would still be starting!