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Canada and the 2024 Copa America


VinceA

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8 minutes ago, costarg said:

Thanks for sharing the stats, but it's kinda comparing apples and canolis.  His stats don't scream offence for Bayern because they don't need or use him that way.  We've all seen and commented that he's eased off the offensive runs after the first 2 seasons or so.  My 2 German Bayern pals tell me he was asked to do that.  Comparing that to his stats for Canada, where we want him to make those runs and combine with the offence isn't really proving anything.  

Honestly confused.

The point of the Canada stats is that he is a potent weapon on offence, even in our struggles. And that that is neutered when playing at fullback.

You are asking for Davies to be played at FB but none of his club FB experience is relevant?

You just want him to play there because the postion is called the same as what he does with his club, but want him to play completely differently? 

You talk about evidence of wingback being bad but there is no more evidence of him being good at fullback.  The last real important game where he played fullback I can think of would be the 4-1 loss to the USA.  By your definiton there is no evidence that is his best postition, because we can't compare club experience. 

We have not been very well organized as a team and have struggled from the World Cup.  We see this all across the pitch and he has still been a major contributor but his position is the problem?

Why not fix the whole team and have him play a system before making such an intractable judgement?

It just feels like you have decided something should happen but have dismissed all the evidence that might say whether that is good or bad. 

PS. You can counter from 3 at back with wingbacks.  Have you watched Leverkusen at all,  see both Frimpong and Grimaldo.  But my first geggenpress lineup had Davies at LW. 

 

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I think vs Argentina you have to play a back 5, probably a 5-3-2. There’s no way we win that game in possession, you’ll have to park the bus and rely on the counter. I think this is the exact type of game Piette would start, I’d rather it be Choinere or even Saliba if he makes major steps but the odds are whoever the coach is starts Piette, he’s a bulldog and can defend well which are both things that will be needed against Argentina. You have to give Davies and Buchanan ego checks here and just say “Play defence” obviously you’re gonna want them to go up a bit but defence must come first. Central CB is the other question mark if we do play this formation, I went with Bombito due to his size and I expect him to be in form at the time but it could realistically be any of him, DC or Waterman.
 

David Larin

Kone Piette Staq

Davies Miller Bombito Johnston Buchanan

Goalie

 

I think vs Peru and Chile you change into 4-3-3. This would give us more attacking potential and try to dominate the game a bit more. I do think Davies needs to play LB for the most possible success, play Millar at wing and let Davies go on runs. In these games the 3rd midfielder is completely up in the air, I would lean towards Choinere or Ahmed but any of Oso, Piette or Saliba are possibilities as well. I think with just 2 CBs it could be anybody, likely just based on who’s in form at the time but Miller probably gets the nod and I’m gonna stay lame and stick with Bombito there.

           David

Millar              Buchanan

   Kone Ahmed Staq

Davies Miller Bombito Johnston

           Goalie

These lineups are assuming that there are no injuries and in no way am I a manager, take this with a grain of salt.

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1 hour ago, Jack1997 said:

I think vs Argentina you have to play a back 5, probably a 5-3-2. There’s no way we win that game in possession, you’ll have to park the bus and rely on the counter. I think this is the exact type of game Piette would start, I’d rather it be Choinere or even Saliba if he makes major steps but the odds are whoever the coach is starts Piette, he’s a bulldog and can defend well which are both things that will be needed against Argentina. You have to give Davies and Buchanan ego checks here and just say “Play defence” obviously you’re gonna want them to go up a bit but defence must come first. Central CB is the other question mark if we do play this formation, I went with Bombito due to his size and I expect him to be in form at the time but it could realistically be any of him, DC or Waterman.
 

David Larin

Kone Piette Staq

Davies Miller Bombito Johnston Buchanan

Goalie

 

I think vs Peru and Chile you change into 4-3-3. This would give us more attacking potential and try to dominate the game a bit more. I do think Davies needs to play LB for the most possible success, play Millar at wing and let Davies go on runs. In these games the 3rd midfielder is completely up in the air, I would lean towards Choinere or Ahmed but any of Oso, Piette or Saliba are possibilities as well. I think with just 2 CBs it could be anybody, likely just based on who’s in form at the time but Miller probably gets the nod and I’m gonna stay lame and stick with Bombito there.

           David

Millar              Buchanan

   Kone Ahmed Staq

Davies Miller Bombito Johnston

           Goalie

These lineups are assuming that there are no injuries and in no way am I a manager, take this with a grain of salt.

None of us are high level managers but I just think you don't hide your fastest player, most likely to best his man, who has shown he has an eye for goal, that far from the opposition net.

Doesn't mean you tell him he can have a free role.  There are lots of players like him who buy into systems and are still able show their stuff. But if you don't trust him, the consequences for  getting caught out at full back are worse.

Edited by WestHamCanadianinOxford
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Or my 5-3-2 formation against Argentina would instead look like this...originally I had a 4-2-3-1 but thinking about it...5-3-2 you do go defensive and park the bus so that being said:

 

GK- Maxime Crepeau (first choice GK)

LWB- Alphonso Davies 

CB- Kamal Miller 

CB- Moise Bombito 

CB- Alistair Johnston 

RWB- Tajon Buchanan 

CM- Stephen Eustaquio (captain)

CM- Ismael Kone 

CM- Mathieu Choiniere 

CF- Cyle Larin

CF- Jonathan David 

 

 

Then against Peru...my formation would change to 4-5-1

 

GK- Maxime Crepeau 

LB- Alphonso Davies 

CB- Moise Bombito 

CB- Kamal Miller 

RB- Alistair Johnston 

CDM- Stephen Eustaquio (captain)

CM- Mathieu Choiniere 

CM- Ismael Kone 

LM- Liam Millar 

RM- Tajon Buchanan 

CF- Jonathan David (Lone striker up front)

 

 

Then in the last group game against Chile...especially if we are in position to advance out of the group then you can rest certain players then my lineup would look like this

 

3-4-3

 

GK- Dayne St Clair (2nd choice GK gets start)

LB- Samuel Adekugbe

CB- Kamal Miller 

RB- Richie Laryea

CDM- Samuel Piette

CM- Liam Fraser 

LM- Alphonso Davies (captain)

RM- Tajon Buchanan 

LW- Jacob Shaffelburg 

CF- Ike Ugbo

RW- Jacen Russell Rowe

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9 hours ago, Jack1997 said:

I think vs Argentina you have to play a back 5, probably a 5-3-2. There’s no way we win that game in possession, you’ll have to park the bus and rely on the counter. I think this is the exact type of game Piette would start, I’d rather it be Choinere or even Saliba if he makes major steps but the odds are whoever the coach is starts Piette, he’s a bulldog and can defend well which are both things that will be needed against Argentina. You have to give Davies and Buchanan ego checks here and just say “Play defence” obviously you’re gonna want them to go up a bit but defence must come first. Central CB is the other question mark if we do play this formation, I went with Bombito due to his size and I expect him to be in form at the time but it could realistically be any of him, DC or Waterman.
 

David Larin

Kone Piette Staq

Davies Miller Bombito Johnston Buchanan

Goalie

 

I think vs Peru and Chile you change into 4-3-3. This would give us more attacking potential and try to dominate the game a bit more. I do think Davies needs to play LB for the most possible success, play Millar at wing and let Davies go on runs. In these games the 3rd midfielder is completely up in the air, I would lean towards Choinere or Ahmed but any of Oso, Piette or Saliba are possibilities as well. I think with just 2 CBs it could be anybody, likely just based on who’s in form at the time but Miller probably gets the nod and I’m gonna stay lame and stick with Bombito there.

           David

Millar              Buchanan

   Kone Ahmed Staq

Davies Miller Bombito Johnston

           Goalie

These lineups are assuming that there are no injuries and in no way am I a manager, take this with a grain of salt.

If we're going to park the bus vs Argentina, is 2 strikers really the way to go? We ran a 5-4-1 against USA pretty well in our first meeting with them in WCQ. It really made it difficult for them to break us down, and with pace on the wide midfielders, we had some good counter attacks.  Our lineup I believe was this:

Larin

Davies - Kaye - Eustaquio - Hoilett

Adekugbe - Kennedy - Henry - Johnston - Laryea

The biggest thing we're missing in order to bunker I think is the dominant CB in the middle. Henry had his issues but was very good in the air, same as Vitoria. These guys were made for bunkering because it didn't expose their lack of pace and/or ball playing. We could see something like this though, with the CBs interchangeable:

David

Davies - Kone - Eustaquio - Buchanan

Adekugbe - Miller - Waterman - Bombito - Johnston

That provides a lot of cover defensively, and Davies and Buchanan will get a few chances to run at players on the counter most likely. You could also invert them potentially, if you want them to be able to cut in more easily. I only really like this in games that we're clearly outmatched, but I think this lineup (or something similar, hopefully with a better CB in the middle, or even Bombito potentially) could be solid against a team like Argentina.

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8 hours ago, nolando said:

We have to rally around the fact that Saudi beat Argentina in Qatar. It's not an impossibility. When you look at the goals they scored, I can picture Davies, David and co scoring in a similar way. It will take not only a motivational masterclass from our manager but also a tactical one, though.

Agreed.

And the tactical masterclass would be to sit our highest goal score  or testing David in the 10...

Davies-----David-------Buchanan

-------Staq----?-----Kone

Miller?--Corneilius--Bombito--Johnston

I could only put 5 players confidently in this system. Putting David in a 10, with Larin in front leaves our middle way to susceptible.

We need a midfield destroyer to emerge in 2 months!

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1 hour ago, TGAA_Star said:

Or my 5-3-2 formation against Argentina would instead look like this...originally I had a 4-2-3-1 but thinking about it...5-3-2 you do go defensive and park the bus so that being said:

 

GK- Maxime Crepeau (first choice GK)

LWB- Alphonso Davies 

CB- Kamal Miller 

CB- Moise Bombito 

CB- Alistair Johnston 

RWB- Tajon Buchanan 

CM- Stephen Eustaquio (captain)

CM- Ismael Kone 

CM- Mathieu Choiniere 

CF- Cyle Larin

CF- Jonathan David 

 

 

Then against Peru...my formation would change to 4-5-1

 

GK- Maxime Crepeau 

LB- Alphonso Davies 

CB- Moise Bombito 

CB- Kamal Miller 

RB- Alistair Johnston 

CDM- Stephen Eustaquio (captain)

CM- Mathieu Choiniere 

CM- Ismael Kone 

LM- Liam Millar 

RM- Tajon Buchanan 

CF- Jonathan David (Lone striker up front)

 

 

Then in the last group game against Chile...especially if we are in position to advance out of the group then you can rest certain players then my lineup would look like this

 

3-4-3

 

GK- Dayne St Clair (2nd choice GK gets start)

LB- Samuel Adekugbe

CB- Kamal Miller 

RB- Richie Laryea

CDM- Samuel Piette

CM- Liam Fraser 

LM- Alphonso Davies (captain)

RM- Tajon Buchanan 

LW- Jacob Shaffelburg 

CF- Ike Ugbo

RW- Jacen Russell Rowe

Overall good looking lineups.

But, 2 strikers vs Argentina?  Very bold.  

3 formations in 3 matches, also bold.  I feel we've been modifying our formation too much already.  We need to find a system and formation and stick to it if we want any kind of success.

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10 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

The point of the Canada stats is that he is a potent weapon on offence, even in our struggles. And that that is neutered when playing at fullback.

You are asking for Davies to be played at FB but none of his club FB experience is relevant?

Davies is not neutered playing FB.  It gives him more space to operate and mix it up with an in form Millar.  It also overloads the opponent, while also offering a very hard working, quick defensive duo.

"none of his club experience is relevant"

You're really reaching man.  Just cause the current system at Bayern asks him to stay back, doesn't change anything about his style for Canada.  Playing the same position, but being "allowed" to attack isn't all that different.  

Anyway, this is going in circles, it's ok you have your preference, I'm not trying to convince you or sell you mine.  Just explaining other points of views.  Sorry if that triggers you.

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V. Argentina

If you are going to park it, I actually dislike three centre backs, more chance you get in each other's way and can miss people. 

451 for me.

David up top

Invert Davies, and  play him and Millar as the wide midfielders. On current form.  At least keep them honest and both can track back under the right management.

LB Adekugbe needs to be fit, maybe Miller or even Cornelius has played there.  

Johnston right, two centre back in between. But people we trust with the ball, nothing cheap.

Bombito, Eustaquio and Kone in midfield for this one.

Edited by WestHamCanadianinOxford
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4 minutes ago, costarg said:

Davies is not neutered playing FB.  It gives him more space to operate and mix it up with an in form Millar.  It also overloads the opponent, while also offering a very hard working, quick defensive duo.

"none of his club experience is relevant"

You're really reaching man.  Just cause the current system at Bayern asks him to stay back, doesn't change anything about his style for Canada.  Playing the same position, but being "allowed" to attack isn't all that different.  

Anyway, this is going in circles, it's ok you have your preference, I'm not trying to convince you or sell you mine.  Just explaining other points of views.  Sorry if that triggers you.

Of course his offence is neutered at fullback, that is just logic and all actual evidence shows that.

You can be okay with that if you think it helps the team. And you think he can be made to do it effectively with Canada.

You are not explaining your point, you are just stating one based on hypotheticals. And saying I can't use real world evidence.

Again, your evidence seem to be - 

"Well he plays there so that's his best position."

And we are supposed to accept that prima facia because no evidence of actual play there is acceptable.

I guess there is frustration because you say you love formations but seem to have not seen any beyond the basics work in real football.  Of course you can counter from three at the back, of course you can under or overlap CBs...etc. Dutch total football would blow your mind.😉

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Everybody is putting Millar into these lineups over Buchanan. Seems odd to me...not only that, Shaffelburg has staked his claim as a guy who's going to contribute whenever playing for Canada. 

We can't void these facts. A lot of guys are in form, but then it becomes playing styles.

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29 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

V. Argentina

If you are going to park it, I actually dislike three centre backs, more chance you get in each other's way and can miss people. 

451 for me.

David up top

Invert Davies, and  play him and Millar as the wide midfielders. On current form.  At least keep them honest and both can track back under the right management.

LB Adekugbe needs to be fit, maybe Miller or even Cornelius has played there.  

Johnston right, two centre back in between. But people we trust with ball, nothing cheap.

Bombito, Eustaquio and Kone in midfield for this one.

Guys like miller and waterman arent going to be able to defend messi and co. Our only hope is to prevent them from getting into the dangerous spots in the first place which means midfield is more a priority than CB. 4-5-1/4-1-4-1 for me as well. bombito to be extremely disciplined as the 6 and just cut passing lanes into the strikers feet. Don't get sucked out and let staq and kone run. 

Who plays RCB though. I dont want waterman as one of the 2. His skill set is passing more than defending. Cornelius on his bad foot? or.... LDF and miller?  Bold. Huge risk. But our only other option assuming a similar squad to the one biello just named. 

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47 minutes ago, Shway said:

It's Bombito!

Waterman is way too soft for me in there, and I would just rather bring back Vitoria. 

Yeah I agree. Waterman doesn't seem imposing enough to be played there, especially when parking the bus. I thought about bringing up Vitoria but figured people would freak out about it. I do think in this type of game he could still be solid though. I wouldn't really want him playing in an open game where we are playing a high line, but if we're absorbing pressure all game hes a good fit. Bombito in the middle is interesting too, but then you have to put Johnston back at RCB, or play someone like Waterman, McNaughton, etc back there. I actually forgot about McGraw as well, it's possible we could use McGraw in the middle with Bombito on the right side. Not sure I'm convinced by McGraw, but at least stylistically, his strengths should be a good fit for the middle.

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Just now, Shway said:

Everybody is putting Millar into these lineups over Buchanan. Seems odd to me...not only that, Shaffelburg has staked his claim as a guy who's going to contribute whenever playing for Canada. 

We can't void these facts. A lot of guys are in form, but then it becomes playing styles.

Against Argentina I do.

I was really disappointed (and so would Inter be if they watched) with his defensive awareness against T&T - he was still playing wingback.

Maybe just a bad game overall and hopefully he had some chances to show me different before the end of the season.

I have just seen Millar go both ways week in, week out.

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1 minute ago, Shway said:

Everybody is putting Millar into these lineups over Buchanan. Seems odd to me...not only that, Shaffelburg has staked his claim as a guy who's going to contribute whenever playing for Canada. 

We can't void these facts. A lot of guys are in form, but then it becomes playing styles.

I agree that I put buchanan in first. 

I think shaffelburg needs more context

He has: 
a couple friendlies
less than 10 minutes in 2 WCQ 
3 sub appearances at the gold cup 
1 sub appearance at the nations league. 

He has 2 goals for canada. 

Therefore his sample size is soooo incredibly small to say that he is going to contribute whenever he plays for canada. 
Both his goals came in transition.... how does he do as a starter? against a team with a low block? 

I love shaf but just because hes been incredible in 2 games as a sub on counter attacks, doesnt mean he will contribute as effectively in build up play, defensively, or in different attacking situations. 

If shaf doesnt score, do we think the same of him? All he did was blast the ball in the net. JRR's turn deserves more credit, david played a good weighted ball. Any of our attackers should score from that position. To extrapolate that he will always contribute based on sub appearances vs a "b/c USA team" and T and T is just not a fair expectation.

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5 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Of course his offence is neutered at fullback, that is just logic and all actual evidence shows that.

Yes, ok champ.  You're correct, I YouTubed and could not find any examples of Davies being an offensive threat from FB.  Absolutely no videos or evidence. 

Seriously man, if you can't open your mind for 10 seconds and consider the balance, killer offence and defense that Davies and Millar would offer as a duo on the left side, i don't know what to tell you. 

With all the evidence of matches without Davies where Canada still generates offence and plays really balanced and beats the big teams.  Then add all the recent matches with him where he struggles and tries to do too much at RWB, you're just ignoring reality.  All you're throwing as an argument is stats where Bayern asks him to focus on defense.

Don't just read my comments, check the media man.  Everyone sees what is happening out there.  You're ignoring the obvious.

5 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

You are not explaining your point, you are just stating one based on hypotheticals. And saying I can't use real world evidence.

The point is, a system requires balance in the 11, not reliance on your one major star.  Davies trying to do it all alone from LWB is limiting the team.   Your theory seems to be Davies is doing it all for us, modify the 11 to benefit him.  All chances come from him, yet you ignore the turnovers, the weaker D, benching one of our best 11 in Millar for an extra CB of lower skill. All evidence shows we play worse when Davies tries to do it all.  We and he need to rely on the team, play a balanced 11 not focused on one star that is already trying to do too much.  

 

 

23 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Again, your evidence seem to be - 

"Well he plays there so that's his best position."

And we are supposed to accept that prima facia because no evidence of actual play there is acceptable.

I guess there is frustration because you say you love formations but seem to have not seen any beyond the basics work in real football.  Of course you can counter from three at the back, of course you can under or overlap CBs...etc. Dutch total football would blow your mind.😉

Google says Davies is the best LB in the world, not me.  Bayern plays him there and have never played him at LW.  But ok, you can take Herdman and Biello's word for it.

Weaker CB's should not be overlapping when no one seems to realize they need to cover for them.  They need to keep it simple with Canada.  We'll see what happens with Bombito, LDF et al, until then, our CB's need to focus on staying home.  T&T's best chance of the game came from exactly that.  The team is not built for this system.

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38 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Both his goals came in transition.... how does he do as a starter? against a team with a low block? 

He is a very good player at attacking space in a direct manner.  When the other guys are really good at coordinated pressing or are set up holding a lead with numbers back, I have doubts that he is going to be able to hold possession in the former situation or make something happen in the latter.  So I agree:  context is everything here.  

Edited by BearcatSA
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34 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I agree that I put buchanan in first. 

I think shaffelburg needs more context

He has: 
a couple friendlies
less than 10 minutes in 2 WCQ 
3 sub appearances at the gold cup 
1 sub appearance at the nations league. 

He has 2 goals for canada. 

Therefore his sample size is soooo incredibly small to say that he is going to contribute whenever he plays for canada. 
Both his goals came in transition.... how does he do as a starter? against a team with a low block? 

I love shaf but just because hes been incredible in 2 games as a sub on counter attacks, doesnt mean he will contribute as effectively in build up play, defensively, or in different attacking situations. 

If shaf doesnt score, do we think the same of him? All he did was blast the ball in the net. JRR's turn deserves more credit, david played a good weighted ball. Any of our attackers should score from that position. To extrapolate that he will always contribute based on sub appearances vs a "b/c USA team" and T and T is just not a fair expectation.

Everything you stated suggests he should get on the field at some point, especially if we are needing a goal. Hes great at the transition game, the same game that I said is what we need to get back to. I've also NEVER put Jacob in my starting lineups, and I don't think I've seen it here either so it's stupid to ask "how will he do as a starter" just to make your point. 

 I'm just not going to put Davies or Buchanan (on the bench) in another position to get Millar on the field.

Edited by Shway
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2 minutes ago, Shway said:

Everything you stated suggests he should get on the field at some point, especially if we are needing a goal. Hes great at the transition game, the same game that I said is what we need to get back to. I've also NEVER put Jacob in my starting lineups, and I don't think I've seen it here either so it's stupid to ask "how will he do as a starter" just to make your point. 

 I'm just not going to put Davies or Buchanan (on the bench) in another position to get Millar on the field.

You said he "will contribute whenever playing. As a sub or a starter, he would be playing. Not sure what's stupid about that? 

If you meant, "he will contribute as a sub when we have the opportunity to counter". Then I fully agree with you. 

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17 minutes ago, costarg said:

Seriously man, if you can't open your mind for 10 seconds and consider the balance, killer offence and defense that Davies and Millar would offer as a duo on the left side, i don't know what to tell you. 

This is one of a few instances where your hypotheticals clash with my real football observation.  How often do you watch Millar? He has very good pace, works very hard - including on defence, has has a lot of tools going both ways.  However, to go up a level, he has to have a more consistent final ball.  Including finishing.  You can YouTube highlights of some nice finishes (playing from wingback) but if you watch full games he does still wastes some of his excellent earlier work, too often.  From years of observation, Davies is a better finisher than Liam at this point. Full stop.  Your hypothetical (have they ever played together in that formation?) with silly overblown language aside.

 

I actually have get on with my day but a few factual errors in there but overall if you look at your post you are trying to compare hypotheticals backed up by Google and YouTube with real game observations backed up by stats. In my view, obviously biased, I know which I would take more seriously.

always fun 

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I think the Trinidad game was used to have a look at domestic bubble guys and the friendly in June will be used to look at the European bubble guys. Let's just say it like this, there is no way Shaffelburg is even in the 24 let alone our starting 11. So the guy smashed the ball in to the net on a 3 on 1 in injury time. Before that he was chasing shadows around the field looking completely lost. I put Waterman in a similar category. He was ok against Trinidad but looked very limited at times. We have to have better options out there

Edited by SpursFlu
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12 hours ago, Jack1997 said:

I think vs Argentina you have to play a back 5, probably a 5-3-2. There’s no way we win that game in possession, you’ll have to park the bus and rely on the counter. I think this is the exact type of game Piette would start, I’d rather it be Choinere or even Saliba if he makes major steps but the odds are whoever the coach is starts Piette, he’s a bulldog and can defend well which are both things that will be needed against Argentina. You have to give Davies and Buchanan ego checks here and just say “Play defence” obviously you’re gonna want them to go up a bit but defence must come first. Central CB is the other question mark if we do play this formation, I went with Bombito due to his size and I expect him to be in form at the time but it could realistically be any of him, DC or Waterman.
 

David Larin

Kone Piette Staq

Davies Miller Bombito Johnston Buchanan

Goalie

 

I think vs Peru and Chile you change into 4-3-3. This would give us more attacking potential and try to dominate the game a bit more. I do think Davies needs to play LB for the most possible success, play Millar at wing and let Davies go on runs. In these games the 3rd midfielder is completely up in the air, I would lean towards Choinere or Ahmed but any of Oso, Piette or Saliba are possibilities as well. I think with just 2 CBs it could be anybody, likely just based on who’s in form at the time but Miller probably gets the nod and I’m gonna stay lame and stick with Bombito there.

           David

Millar              Buchanan

   Kone Ahmed Staq

Davies Miller Bombito Johnston

           Goalie

These lineups are assuming that there are no injuries and in no way am I a manager, take this with a grain of salt.

With this in mind, I wonder if you make room for Liam Fraser on the roster. Piette is my guy, but if his lack of speed becomes a factor, Fraser does really play well for Canada. Or maybe you try Bombito out there with Cornelius in a back 5. 

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