Canada and the 2024 Copa America

[kacbru]

Since this is going in circles, this might be interesting re: using CBs as fullbacks... 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2024/mar/30/back-to-square-one-defenders-manchester-city-arsenal-middle-men

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

10 minutes ago, kacbru said:

Since this is going in circles, this might be interesting re: using CBs as fullbacks... 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2024/mar/30/back-to-square-one-defenders-manchester-city-arsenal-middle-men

What an amazingly novel concept

 

(To go 'round one more time, to be fair, I did try explaining this and similar, earlier)

  

Edit:  Not trying to be mean but I don't think we are going to compete against better teams with bog standard formation with people playing roles.  Good players get neutralized by smart formations all the time.

More so these days, the name of the game is being comfortable with your position but ready to switch and play others'.  Most of our players are experienced and smart enough to handle a creative setup.  

I think we are selling them short when we box them in sometimes.  Watching Bombito now, it seems he could certainly function as fullback, which opens up so many options even when playing him as a wide centre back. 

 

Edited March 30 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[costarg]

3 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Respectfully, you continue to just make factual errors.

Just one for space:

David has not played midfield in the recent past, has he?  When I watched him and Yilmaz playing together, he wasn't a midfielder. Even if you take Transfermarket as gospel, he has play as a second striker almost 2 years ago but it was those two up front together.  He also played wing according to Transfermarket, should we play him there? 

Well now you're just not watching.  Lille have used 2 strikers 2-3 games ago, and he's the one that plays below the other.  AKA #10, attacking mid, 2nd striker.

Thanks, but I end it here.  Not trying to convince you of anything, just replying to your accusations and questions, but it's heavy.  You know my point of view, I confidently stick by it. I agree with you on many other points, but agree to disagree on the Davies LWB & back 3 ones.  Cheers, have a good one.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

5 minutes ago, costarg said:

Well now you're just not watching.  Lille have used 2 strikers 2-3 games ago, and he's the one that plays below the other.  AKA #10, attacking mid, 2nd striker.

Thanks, but I end it here.  Not trying to convince you of anything, just replying to your accusations and questions, but it's heavy.  You know my point of view, I confidently stick by it. I agree with you on many other points, but agree to disagree on the Davies LWB & back 3 ones.  Cheers, have a good one.

So not as a midfielder.

 

Edited March 30 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[costarg]

Just now, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

So not as midfielder.

Seriously? 

Google: "10 is almost always an attacking midfielder".  So ya, as a midfielder if you'd like.  Bye.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 minutes ago, costarg said:

Seriously? 

Google: "10 is almost always an attacking midfielder".  So ya, as a midfielder if you'd like.  Bye.

Since you rely on transfer market so much why do they have second striker and attacking midfielder as different positions?

 

[Dominic94]

6 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Would you considering switching Davies and Millar and why not😉?

I think Davies is a better left winger and Millar has what it takes to be a more traditional but attacking left back.  If we are open to switches. 

(Also not convinced by Oso recently and switch your CBs?)

I think we’d better maximize Davies speed and he would be more dangerous if we could sneak him in. Millar is very comfortable on the ball and good and taking guys on so he could free up Davies for a run. 
 

Oso hasn’t been bad in his new role higher up, I like what I’ve seen.

CB could change a lot.

[TOcanadafan]

6 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Again, all this arguing about who goes where ignores a simple fact: a quality coach would have a clear idea and apply it. He would also realise we have to line up differently vs Argentina, with Chile and Perú we might be more familiar.

But since none of us are that person, and if he were to arrive he'd do what he thinks is right, after that it comes down to results. Judging his results.

For me there are two key issues with Canada, maybe three:

1-no clear CB pairing or defensive setup to cover for it

2-no clear idea of the role Davies is supposed to play

and 3-we are not getting the best out of our better players

You have to put all that in the hands of someone with knowledge and an idea of how to make things work. 

I find it odd folks are arguing about who must go where, solely on the basis of where they've been. It is all very well until a club coach changes things up and then we are like, hey look, Tajon can play on the left too! 

In any case, vs Argentina and even Netherlands, there is a case for a single striker. Or David behind Larin linking with the mids, he did that quite a bit vs. T&T. With Osorio out and apparently off form, with Hoillet where he is, it is a solution. You can't play a high press because they'll pass out of it easily. It is better to pressure their creative mids, Enzo, Mac Allister, Rodrigo de Paul (Frenkie for Holland) and clog them down, force them outside, so they can't make that final pass to the strikers. 

Vs Argentina it is about a defensive system with counter-attacking options. Vs. Perú and Chile it is different. You can't just decide a priori as if you didn't have a rival, and did not have a coach. 

Biello's choice of Ugbo with Larin and David was him screaming at the top of his lungs "I am not ready for this job!!"

 

 

Amen.

Even though I completely agree 100% with your post, it still is kinda fun to play arm-chair manager, so I don't blame anyone for giving their thoughts on how they feel we should line up, and who should go where.

[Shway]

4 hours ago, TOcanadafan said:

Amen.

Even though I completely agree 100% with your post, it still is kinda fun to play arm-chair manager, so I don't blame anyone for giving their thoughts on how they feel we should line up, and who should go where.

The reality is, majority of us know the player pool better than a "Floro" like signing would.

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, TOcanadafan said:

Amen.

Even though I completely agree 100% with your post, it still is kinda fun to play arm-chair manager, so I don't blame anyone for giving their thoughts on how they feel we should line up, and who should go where.

By all means! Vs Argentina I'm playing Alphonso Davies as right wing, inverted. He'll turn in and score, assist. Then the RB will do the overlap and centre in from the endline. Davies will have to learn to cross with his right occasionally or else defenders only cover him inside.

After seeing this Real Madrid will play him the same, they'll sell Rodrygo and Davies will be remade. No wing on the left. Larin up high and David moving behind him linking with the mids.

A 4-3-1-2

Funny but I don't have that much fun doing this. I don't bet on results and don't make predictions, except in my heart of hearts.

But I would like to see a manager with a vision for Davies as RW.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

By all means! Vs Argentina I'm playing Alphonso Davies as right wing, inverted. He'll turn in and score, assist. Then the RB will do the overlap and centre in from the endline. Davies will have to learn to cross with his right occasionally or else defenders only cover him inside.

After seeing this Real Madrid will play him the same, they'll sell Rodrygo and Davies will be remade. No wing on the left. Larin up high and David moving behind him linking with the mids.

A 4-3-1-2

Funny but I don't have that much fun doing this. I don't bet on results and don't make predictions, except in my heart of hearts.

But I would like to see a manager with a vision for Davies as RW.

I agree he can play there and can probably shine, they were inverted early on v. T&T.  He can play a lot of places, the issue is getting a setup that allows that and protects the rest of the team. 

Against Argentina I look at it this way. The drop down from Davies to Adekugbe (I like how he looked in his cameo last night) at LB, as a defender against patient possession attacking is certaintly not non-existant - assuming the former stays there.  However, in operating nearer the top of the pitch, keeping Argentina honest and grabbing the scarce counter chances we will get, I think the drop down from Davies to any other player is far more significant. 

When they have the ball most of the time, all the space on the pitch will be behind them, nearest to that is where we want him to get looks.  I just look at when West Ham have joy against a better team, it is using those type of weapons. 

[The Pessimist]

Di Maria could be substituted by Messi. But it doesn't matter what lineup Canada plays. We're in trouble.

[Snowcrash]

18 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

So not as a midfielder.

 

I think you're getting caught up in semantics.  At Gent, the formation was 4-3-3 and the forwards were Depoitre, Yaramchuk and David but for all intents and purposes, David was playing as a central attacker at the point of a diamond midfield, beneath the two forwards.  To David's credit, he also managed to score a boatload of goals from that recessed position, a lot more than a traditional CAM. Same at Lille.  If it's a single striker formation, than David is the deep forward but if it's a two striker formation, David pretty well always plays behind the other forward because of his exceptional linkup play and runs into space created by the other forward. 

[Craig11rm]

IMO we should play a 4-2-3-1 that can shift to a 3-5-2. The 3rd mid with Eustaquio/Kone could be Oso, Choiniere or Ahmed if we are going more attacking but if we are being more defensive it would be nice to have a 6 in there but Piette is our best option for that. I like Choinière because of his set piece delivery and his work rate…

                       David 

Millar            Choiniere          Buchanan

          Eustaquio          Kone

Davies    Miller      Bombito     Johnston

                    Crepeau

or….

                   Millar   David 

                   Choiniere 

Davies Eustaquio   Kone Buchanan 

       Millar   Bombito  Johnston

                    Crepeau

if you like Davies on left wing move him up take Millar off and put Adekugbe at LB. Piette or Ahmed sub in to the midfield depending on if you’re protecting a lead or if you need a goal. 

 

[Macksam]

On 3/27/2024 at 2:23 PM, Kent said:

Anyways, I'd be happy with there being a CONMEBOL only Copa every 4 years, and a joint CONMEBOL/CONCACAF Copa America every 4 years as well. They should have different names though ideally. If CONMEBOL is happy to give up their South American only version, I don't really care, but I don't want CONCACAF to get rid of the Gold Cup (but I would like for it to go to every 4 years instead of every other year).

If the joint CONMEBOL/CONCACAF COPA becomes a permanent thing going forward, which it should, the people in charge should morph the Gold Cup into a U-21 tournament, still being bi-annual. Anyhow, I'm not sure if the smaller countries within the region would like that though.

[Joe MacCarthy]

 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, Snowcrash said:

I think you're getting caught up in semantics.  At Gent, the formation was 4-3-3 and the forwards were Depoitre, Yaramchuk and David but for all intents and purposes, David was playing as a central attacker at the point of a diamond midfield, beneath the two forwards.  To David's credit, he also managed to score a boatload of goals from that recessed position, a lot more than a traditional CAM. Same at Lille.  If it's a single striker formation, than David is the deep forward but if it's a two striker formation, David pretty well always plays behind the other forward because of his exceptional linkup play and runs into space created by the other forward. 

For context we were talking about "recent times" rather than coming up on 4 years ago, with Gent. And in the context of 451.

I agree he played as an attacking midfielder with Gent. They generally played during the season you mention a 442  diamond with him at the point. It was fun to watch and in their league they had success with that kind of attacking formation.

However, that is different from playing as second striker as you can probably say he has done, though not recently, at Lille.  The role is different, you play around or just behind another striker but as your name indicates - striker-  not even forward - your primary purpose is to score. 

Attacking midfielders even the best ones who score - have other responsibilities first, creative ones, and they don't play where David does or how he does with Lille.

Transfermarket which was used a lot in the discussion, rightly I believe, makes the distinction and says he played both, including during his time at Gent.  But recently he has played as a striker exclusively.  If another forward comes on Yazıcı, Haraldsson, Cavaleiro etc they usually play the "second"  role.

David has never played midfield in 451 that I can think of, certainly not in recent times.

Edited March 31 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[JAVIERF]

Hey I'm not being cocky,  you may say if we rest some important players for Peru and Chile IS SENSIBLE football because,  If Canada can defeat our 11 or get s draw will get the team light up.  If you lose,  it is nothing to worry and you have Eustaquio David Buchanan and the main players well rested.  That Is the big picture.  I don't think we will win it TBF,  USA is the local team is a plus,  would be strange but could happen and that will be the end of fútbol as we know it.  Football fans in  the big five leagues will burn their scarves to hell.  

Usa Is fine ,  Jamaica is like the dark horse of the tournament, luckily will combat a group full of heavy weight fighters there but the Mexicans, and Uruguay under El Loco Marcelo is the in form team,  

Chile and Peru are rebuilding

Venezuela is also an outsider as Jamaica.  Mexico is under pressure very tricky teams for the Aztecs. 

And Brazil who needs to perform ,  but in America and with Their voisins they won't get the respect they get elsewhere,  they rivals will stomp on them 

1) Uruguay 

2)Brazil

3) Argentina 

Surprise team

4) Jamaica / Venezuela 

[An Observer]

5 hours ago, Craig11rm said:

IMO we should play a 4-2-3-1 that can shift to a 3-5-2. The 3rd mid with Eustaquio/Kone could be Oso, Choiniere or Ahmed if we are going more attacking but if we are being more defensive it would be nice to have a 6 in there but Piette is our best option for that. I like Choinière because of his set piece delivery and his work rate…

                       David 

Millar            Choiniere          Buchanan

          Eustaquio          Kone

Davies    Miller      Bombito     Johnston

                    Crepeau

or….

                   Millar   David 

                   Choiniere 

Davies Eustaquio   Kone Buchanan 

       Millar   Bombito  Johnston

                    Crepeau

if you like Davies on left wing move him up take Millar off and put Adekugbe at LB. Piette or Ahmed sub in to the midfield depending on if you’re protecting a lead or if you need a goal. 

 

Every time i look at these line ups it makes me think we could really use Gauld.  Having him play behind David and in front of the midfield would provide that link between them and the wings.  It’s the player we are missing.  Plus Gauld puts such a shift in defensively. Having him part of that press with David, Davies and Buchanan would make us a difficult to play against and we would have the speed/stamina to counter even the best teams.

[JAVIERF]

On 3/30/2024 at 2:28 PM, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Would you considering switching Davies and Millar and why not😉?

I think Davies is a better left winger and Millar has what it takes to be a more traditional but attacking left back.  If we are open to switches. 

(Also not convinced by Oso recently and switch your CBs?)

Millar is a right midfielder or right forward ,  not a defender at all ,  but that is my opinion ,  he could turn into a fine mid if he stops running and concentrates on passing it around pick and roll 

Pick and roll tiki taka

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

3 minutes ago, An Observer said:

Every time i look at these line ups it makes me think we could really use Gauld.  Having him play behind David and in front of the midfield would provide that link between them and the wings.  It’s the player we are missing.  Plus Gauld puts such a shift in defensively. Having him part of that press with David, Davies and Buchanan would make us a difficult to play against and we would have the speed/stamina to counter even the best teams.

To me that puts three midfielder together that edge towards the offensive.  Which scares me against Croatia-like midfields.

I think we actually have enough offense if we can channel it properly, Eustaquio can make those line-splitting passes if protected enough and freed up from some defensive duties.  Kone needs to play to his size and pace more and I would love someone with Mexican Edson Alvarez's engine and size with them. 

Well if I am dreaming and making up stuff I would love a prime-era Viera or Edgar Davids. 

[JAVIERF]

Kennedy is a player who could lead Vs Argentina the type of players we get upset because of his tenacity he has a bit of Speed at the back ,  A big guy upfront like Ukgo or Jebbison or Cavallini is also a problem ,  Piette and Kayé are very similar to our players the want to keep it on the deck they ate not long passing lovers like Fraser and Eustaquio ,  vs Argentina I would go like

[JAVIERF]

5 hours ago, Craig11rm said:

IMO we should play a 4-2-3-1 that can shift to a 3-5-2. The 3rd mid with Eustaquio/Kone could be Oso, Choiniere or Ahmed if we are going more attacking but if we are being more defensive it would be nice to have a 6 in there but Piette is our best option for that. I like Choinière because of his set piece delivery and his work rate…

                       David 

Millar            Choiniere          Buchanan

          Eustaquio          Kone

Davies    Miller      Bombito     Johnston

                    Crepeau

or….

                   Millar   David 

                   Choiniere 

Davies Eustaquio   Kone Buchanan 

       Millar   Bombito  Johnston

                    Crepeau

if you like Davies on left wing move him up take Millar off and put Adekugbe at LB. Piette or Ahmed sub in to the midfield depending on if you’re protecting a lead or if you need a goal. 

 

We have problems wit stucky 9 like Lukaku or Like Chris Wood kind of players a bit mobile and big,  

If you play to speedsters it gonna be piece of Cake

Actually a double 9 could work for Canada the dullest the match and longer the better .

Could be Buchanan Curbeanu are the type of guys we hate to face brave,  big legs and the face you with the head up ,  the try to dribble you 

At the back it has to be a back 4 

In Midfield you don't need wingers you need the best passers and the ones who won't try long passes ,  Piette is very similar to our guys on that mindset ,  Layrea and Adekugbe could be left bsck 

Center backs they must be your faster so Kennedy is an asset there and he is a left peg defender so it is a must the McGraw fellow looks intimidating.  

 

 

[JAVIERF]

We are very weary of trickssters like David ,  who has talent to bend it and put it away, but he is similar to Kun Agüero same as Davies is a players we have bunches around playing futsal football.  We have problems with strong fast players like Buchanan and Curbeanu because they are fearless long legs etc .  Ukgo Cavallini too that kind of 9 ,  Larin is a poacher ,  he is not physically menacing but he has a bit of pace up front,  

Millar the same he is in my opinion for unidimensional than schaffenburg who has two pegs and a bit of flair.  

[JAVIERF]

28 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

To me that puts three midfielder together that edge towards the offensive.  Which scares me against Croatia-like midfields.

I think we actually have enough offense if we can channel it properly, Eustaquio can make those line-splitting passes if protected enough and freed up from some defensive duties.  Kone needs to play to his size and pace more and I would love someone with Mexican Edson Alvarez's engine and size with them. 

Well if I am dreaming and making up stuff I would love a prime-era Viera or Edgar Davids. 

Yeah  we were the team who had run the less length during the 2022 WC followed by the croats 

This is a passing the ball game we aren't runners