Canada and the 2024 Copa America

[Bigandy]

27 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

In fairness, on that defensive play he switched off and literally ran in the opposite direction with the play still on. But check Kamal on that play, covering a non threat outside and not even pretending to cover the attacker.

Difference imo is that Shaft was fresh and fresh legs have no excuse.

Good point. Kamal got dragged out. He was following his runner and created a gap for shafs man to go thru. If shaf follows, its no big deal. If kamal sits, then they have a wide player open whos a non threat. I see that as an outside CB, Kamal should follow his guy. Waterman should get tighter, shaf should follow his guy. 

All movements are slow and lack and communications, except for shaf. He just didnt do any defensive work. He also didnt run the opposite direction. He let his man go and once he was gone, shaf made a half hearted 3 yard job back to his goal. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

6 hours ago, costarg said:

Regarding the bold part, who are we talking about again?  Millar or Davies?

Ha. Most people would say Davies has much better than "pretty good pace"😉.

As to the rest I'm moving on.  I feel I have presented a whole of evidence and you have stated your point a number of times.

Again, I enjoy the mental excercise.

[costarg]

On 3/28/2024 at 2:59 PM, Bigandy said:

This is starting to feel more like an Anti- 3atb tirade as opposed to davies best position. 

It's all connected really.  I'm a fan of back-3, but as discussed several times, not in our current flavor of it.  We don't have the players for it until we stop with the Johnston CB insanity.  Once the younglings crack the starting line-up we can re-discuss and evaluate.

Johnston didn't play CB for Nashville, not before Nashville, not for Montreal, not for Celtic.  Herman and Biello are the only coaches that have done and continue to do this.  Nothing about his skill or profile say CB.  He's smart and athletic, so he can pull it off, but we aren't helping him or CANMNT in the process.

Just an example of what the back 3 forces us into.

 

[An Observer]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

It's all connected really.  I'm a fan of back-3, but as discussed several times, not in our current flavor of it.  We don't have the players for it until we stop with the Johnston CB insanity.  Once the younglings crack the starting line-up we can re-discuss and evaluate.

Johnston didn't play CB for Nashville, not before Nashville, not for Montreal, not for Celtic.  Herman and Biello are the only coaches that have done and continue to do this.  Nothing about his skill or profile say CB.  He's smart and athletic, so he can pull it off, but we aren't helping him or CANMNT in the process.

Just an example of what the back 3 forces us into.

 

I am fine with Johnson as a RCB but only if you have two others in the back line that are tall and good in the air.  We had Vitoria but Miller is not good in the air so that is a double whammy.  If Bombito and Cornelius stepped up to be full-time starters, it could work.  But now with Waterman and/or Miller starting.

[costarg]

2 hours ago, An Observer said:

I am fine with Johnson as a RCB but only if you have two others in the back line that are tall and good in the air.  We had Vitoria but Miller is not good in the air so that is a double whammy.  If Bombito and Cornelius stepped up to be full-time starters, it could work.  But now with Waterman and/or Miller starting.

Exactly what I'm saying.  If the other two aren't pillars to cover for his deficiencies we should not even consider it. 

At the moment it's a strong no, until changes happen.  Even then, it's a stop gap, not a permanent solution.  I'm confident Bombito will make him redundant at RCB fairly soon.  If that happens, there is no longer any need or justification for a back 3 anyway, cause we'd have to bench some of our best players to shoe-horn a system that only suits - maybe - 2 players.  

[costarg]

On 3/28/2024 at 2:59 PM, Bigandy said:

Why do zinchenko and alaba ( i know hes now a CB but he played CM for austria while he was a lb) play other positions than LB for their nations?

Sure, it happens, and sometimes it even works depending the player and system and familiarity of said team.  To say the system is working for Davies and Canada is a stretch.  Davies plays and looks more comfortable at LB with Bayern than he does at LWB for Canada, and it's not close.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

13 hours ago, costarg said:

Exactly what I'm saying.  If the other two aren't pillars to cover for his deficiencies we should not even consider it. 

At the moment it's a strong no, until changes happen.  Even then, it's a stop gap, not a permanent solution.  I'm confident Bombito will make him redundant at RCB fairly soon.  If that happens, there is no longer any need or justification for a back 3 anyway, cause we'd have to bench some of our best players to shoe-horn a system that only suits - maybe - 2 players.  

Sorry, I tried and we will leave Davies out of it.  Let's pretend he's a traditional left back and will stay and play at that postion. Remember you want to keep it simple. 

 

Who are we benching? Remember we are going by the fact that player's best position is where they play for their club. 

 

Let's look at 352 and whether that only suits 2 players 

Buchanan plays wingback, training with one of the best users of wingbacks in the world.

(Millar also plays wingback -  love him and brings a great balanced game, but it hard for me to say a player that has 1 goal  in 24 appearances should be first choice in our front line, essentially taking out Larin). 

David should be playing striker, Larin should be playing striker, Kone should be playing central midfield (with 2 player help in midfield, as he does with his club).  Eustaquio plays in central midfield. Bombito should be playing as a centre back , Waterman? should be playing CB (plays in the centre of a 3 with club) but there are a number, Cornelius should be playing centre back (and played LCB in a 3 a fair bit last year.) Let's say Choniere, who plays central for his club and you have my best 9 outfield players, right now, playing where they do with their club.  

By my count that is more than 2.

 

Do the same with a 433. 

Shaffelburg David Corbeanu 

Kone Eustaquio Choniere

Davies Cornelius Waterman (he has played more than Bombito now ) Johnston.

 

Both lineups have some really silly elements if you stick to what players play with their clubs. But saying 2 players are suited to 3 at the back is honestly completely out there. 

 

Edited March 30 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[costarg]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Sorry, I tried and we will leave Davies out of it.  Let's pretend he's a traditional left back and will stay and play at that postion. Remember you want to keep it simple. 

 

Who are we benching? Remember we are going by the fact that player's best position is where they play for their club. 

 

Let's look at 352 and whether that only suits 2 players 

Buchanan plays wingback, training with one of the best users of wingbacks in the world.

(Millar also plays wingback -  love him and brings a great balanced game, but it hard for me to say a player that has 1 goal  in 24 appearances should be first choice in our front line, essentially taking out Larin). 

David should be playing striker, Larin should be playing striker, Kone should be playing central midfield (with 2 player help in midfield, as he does with his club).  Eustaquio plays in central midfield. Bombito should be playing as a centre back , Waterman? should be playing CB (plays in the centre of a 3 with club) but there are a number, Cornelius should be playing centre back (and played LCB in a 3 a fair bit last year.) Let's say Choniere, who plays central for his club and you have my best 9 outfield players, right now, playing where they do with their club.  

By my count that is more than 2.

 

Do the same with a 433. 

Shaffelburg David Corbeanu 

Kone Eustaquio Choniere

Davies Cornelius Waterman (he has played more than Bombito now ) Johnston.

 

Both lineups have some really silly elements if you stick to what players play with their clubs. But saying 2 players are suited to 3 at the back is honestly completely out there. 

 

You say Millar plays WB for club.  But truth is he's played more LW than anywhere else (check transfermarkt for the stats, or you can always ask @spitfire).

You're counting Waterman in our best 11?

If it helps, this is my 11.  Drop Larin, move up David and add a DM vs the stronger countries.

                        Larin

Millar - Kone - David- Stache - Tajon

Davies - Cornelius - Bombito - Johnston

No one is shoe-horned or twisted into a position that does not suit him or he doesn't play regularly.

 

Edited March 30 by costarg

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

17 minutes ago, costarg said:

You say Millar plays WB for club.  But truth is he's played more LW than anywhere else (check transfermarkt for the stats, or you can always ask @spitfire).

You're counting Waterman in our best 11?

If it helps, this is my 11.  Drop Larin, move up David and add a DM vs the stronger countries.

                        Larin

Millar - Kone - David- Stache - Tajon

Davies - Cornelius - Bombito - Johnston

No one is shoe-horned or twisted into a position that does not suit him or he doesn't play regularly.

 

Ha.

You are shoe-horning Tajon into a winger, David into a midfielder and Millar into a winger instead of Davies*  (again 1 goal in 25 appearance for Canada).  That's using the arguments you used for Davies - that's not where their clubs plays them and - one for me personally, having watched him a lot - Millar looks way more comfortable at wingback.

 

But how are only two players suited to 3 at the back again. 

 

 

*At least switch them, if you are going to break your own rules 

Edited March 30 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[narduch]

The funny thing is Tajon has been used on the left by Inter

[costarg]

9 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Ha.

You are shoe-horning Tajon into a winger, David into a midfielder and Millar into a winger instead of Davies*  (again 1 goal in 25 appearance for Canada).  That's sing the arguments you used for Davies - that's not where their clubs plays them and - one for me personally, having watched him a lot - Millar looks way more comfortable at wingback.

 

But how are only two players suited to 3 at the back again. 

 

 

*At least switch them, if you are going to break your own rules 

Tajon:

JD - we've all been saying for years he's more of a 10 than 9, and he is a second striker in my formation, and full striker vs better teams.:

Millar - IS a winger:

 

 

Edited March 30 by costarg

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

3 minutes ago, narduch said:

The funny thing is Tajon has been used on the left by Inter

True and he has played there for Brugge but I think was just a case of getting him on the pitch (33' total)

He was playing RB/RWB pretty consistently when they started looking to buy him. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

12 minutes ago, costarg said:

Tajon:

JD - we've all been saying for years he's more of a 10 than 9:

Millar - IS a winger:

 

 

Davies - just saying

 

That's not where their clubs play them - your rules not mine.

Also if you ignorantly look at Transfer market - they will often place a wingback as a wide midfielder.  

And laughable strange - a 10 is not a midfielder.

 

Edited March 30 by WestHamCanadianinOxford
added graphic

[narduch]

Fotmob has those charts too.

They call Tajon a RB.

Millar a LWB

[spitfire]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

 

(Millar also plays wingback -  love him and brings a great balanced game, but it hard for me to say a player that has 1 goal  in 24 appearances should be first choice in our front line, essentially taking out Larin). 

 

Its disingenuous to say he has 1 goal in 24 games.. he has 1 goal 2 assists in 12 starts and 12 sub appearnces 

Mostly plays out of position..lwb,rwb, striker..almost never LW his best position..

have a look at the transfer market stats and see the number of minutes in those appearances..

If he had 1 goal in 24 appearances playing with the top team then I'll buy it... Liam has arguably our best player playing in the same position as him... Liam when fit starts every week in a championship side pushing for the playoffs and is one of their best players...

And sofa score has Liam as a MF...

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/liam-millar/nationalmannschaft/spieler/487417/verein_id/3510/hauptwettbewerb//wettbewerb_id//start/2018-03-24/ende/2024-03-30/nurEinsatz/0/plus/1

 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

8 minutes ago, spitfire said:

Its disingenuous to say he has 1 goal in 24 games.. he has 1 goal 2 assists in 12 starts and 12 sub appearnces 

Mostly plays out of position..lwb,rwb, striker..almost never LW his best position..

have a look at the transfer market stats and see the number of minutes in those appearances..

If he had 1 goal in 24 appearances playing with the top team then I'll buy it... Liam has arguably our best player playing in the same position as him... Liam when fit starts every week in a championship side pushing for the playoffs and is one of their best players...

And sofa score has Liam as a MF...

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/liam-millar/nationalmannschaft/spieler/487417/verein_id/3510/hauptwettbewerb//wettbewerb_id//start/2018-03-24/ende/2024-03-30/nurEinsatz/0/plus/1

 

Mate, 

I absolutely respect your support and your opinion and your information. 

I love what Liam is doing at Preston in a wingback role (can we call it wide midfielder in Manning's system)  and I know you don't. Can we respectfully disagree. 

If I were you I would want him in positions to score more as well.

Edited March 30 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[spitfire]

And again I will say it again..play Dacies and Liam on the same side ..or for that matter if Tajon sticks at LWB at Inter try that...TRY it and see where it goes..

Edited**

warned you lol...

Edited March 30 by spitfire

[spitfire]

6 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Mate, 

I absolutely respect your support and your opinion and your information. 

I love what Liam is doing at Preston in a wingback role (can we call it wide midfielder in Manning's system)  and I know you don't. Can we respectfully disagree. 

If I were you I would want him in position score more as well.

I feel you..just frustrated..

The thing is people always quote the 1 goal in 24 games thing..go back and look at Larin's first 24 games for Canada.. he had 4 goals.. from striker almost always starting... even as our top scorer always gets should we drop him vibess..

https://canadasoccer.com/profile/?id=3904#tab2

Edited March 30 by spitfire

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

6 minutes ago, spitfire said:

I feel you..just frustrated..

The thing is people always quote the 1 goal in 24 games thing..go back and look at Larin's first 24 games for Canada.. he had 4 goals.. from striker almost always starting... even as our top scorer always gets should we drop him vibess..

I agree - and it is probably harsh of me say it like that.

I guess was trying to make my point and my point was - and this is just being honest - in our best and most balanced lineups, Liam is behind a generational talent.  From just some internet rando who watches too much football.

Could we get them to interplay on the same side, maybe but I think we lose other important pieces - right now. 

Edited March 30 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[blueseeka]

My gawd boys.....we are going in circles

[Dominic94]

Here’s who I would take to start:

Millar-David-Buchanan

        oso

Kone-Eustaquio

Davies-Bombito-Miller-Johnston

Crepeau

 

Bench

Sirois

Saint Clair

JRR

JMR

Larin

Shaffleburg

Choiniere

Cornelius 

MacNoughton

Corbeanu

Piette

Waterman

 

for me this is the best we have. Depending on the opponent I would maybe start Larin on the left, but I think Millar is our best true natural LW option. 
 

Alternatively I would actually leave Oso on the bench or Kone, in favour or David at 10 with Larin up top:

so

Millar-Larin-Buchanan  

         David

Oso-Staq

if we want to be more offensive.

 

 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

21 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

Here’s who I would take to start:

Millar-David-Buchanan

        oso

Kone-Eustaquio

Davies-Bombito-Miller-Johnston

Crepeau

 

Bench

Sirois

Saint Clair

JRR

JMR

Larin

Shaffleburg

Choiniere

Cornelius 

MacNoughton

Corbeanu

Piette

Waterman

 

for me this is the best we have. Depending on the opponent I would maybe start Larin on the left, but I think Millar is our best true natural LW option. 
 

Alternatively I would actually leave Oso on the bench or Kone, in favour or David at 10 with Larin up top:

so

Millar-Larin-Buchanan  

         David

Oso-Staq

if we want to be more offensive.

 

 

Would you considering switching Davies and Millar and why not😉?

I think Davies is a better left winger and Millar has what it takes to be a more traditional but attacking left back.  If we are open to switches. 

(Also not convinced by Oso recently and switch your CBs?)

Edited March 30 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[costarg]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Davies - just saying

 

That's not where their clubs play them - your rules not mine.

Also if you ignorantly look at Transfer market - they will often place a wingback as a wide midfielder.  

And laughable strange - a 10 is not a midfielder.

 

Dude, I don't know what to tell you except Google is your friend.  #10 is an attacking mid by definition.

And again, Tajon, Millar, David have all played these positions for clubs in recent times.  Davies and Johnston are sitting on the outside, only Herdman and Biello (because of Herdman) are playing 3D chess with them and have managed to convince a few people on here that it suits them.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

38 minutes ago, costarg said:

Dude, I don't know what to tell you except Google is your friend.  #10 is an attacking mid by definition.

And again, Tajon, Millar, David have all played these positions for clubs in recent times.  Davies and Johnston are sitting on the outside, only Herdman and Biello (because of Herdman) are playing 3D chess with them and have managed to convince a few people on here that it suits them.

Respectfully, you continue to just make factual errors.

Just one for space:

David has not played midfield in the recent past, has he?  When I watched him and Yilmaz playing together, he wasn't a midfielder. Even if you take Transfermarket as gospel, he has play as a second striker almost 2 years ago but it was those two up front together.  He also played wing according to Transfermarket, should we play him there? 

This is the problem.  You want your point so bad but you can't pick and choose when something is applicable and when it isn't and still have it be a valid point. 

Edit : Maybe just to explain it more. You like the 3D chess meme, but you are essentially accusing Fonesca, Inzaghi and a young manager I really Liam Manning,of the same. Because you think players should be played a certainly way, different from how they would. 

 

I will try to leave this again but I would honestly like you to explain how 3 at the back suits only 2 players in our side.  

 

 

 

Edited March 30 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Unnamed Trialist]

Again, all this arguing about who goes where ignores a simple fact: a quality coach would have a clear idea and apply it. He would also realise we have to line up differently vs Argentina, with Chile and Perú we might be more familiar.

But since none of us are that person, and if he were to arrive he'd do what he thinks is right, after that it comes down to results. Judging his results.

For me there are two key issues with Canada, maybe three:

1-no clear CB pairing or defensive setup to cover for it

2-no clear idea of the role Davies is supposed to play

and 3-we are not getting the best out of our better players

You have to put all that in the hands of someone with knowledge and an idea of how to make things work. 

I find it odd folks are arguing about who must go where, solely on the basis of where they've been. It is all very well until a club coach changes things up and then we are like, hey look, Tajon can play on the left too! 

In any case, vs Argentina and even Netherlands, there is a case for a single striker. Or David behind Larin linking with the mids, he did that quite a bit vs. T&T. With Osorio out and apparently off form, with Hoillet where he is, it is a solution. You can't play a high press because they'll pass out of it easily. It is better to pressure their creative mids, Enzo, Mac Allister, Rodrigo de Paul (Frenkie for Holland) and clog them down, force them outside, so they can't make that final pass to the strikers. 

Vs Argentina it is about a defensive system with counter-attacking options. Vs. Perú and Chile it is different. You can't just decide a priori as if you didn't have a rival, and did not have a coach. 

Biello's choice of Ugbo with Larin and David was him screaming at the top of his lungs "I am not ready for this job!!"