Group F Opponent Watch (Belgium, Croatia, Morocco)

[maplebanana]

16 hours ago, hodgkiss said:

Am I the only person suggesting that we can take the group? here's the factors that I believe will help/hinder our chances:

Weather: The only team that is maybe somewhat used to the weather in Qatar will be Morocco. The rest of us will be battling with it - so the management of intensity and recovery will be very important. 

Age: with the exception of Atiba and to a lesser degree Borjan, we are a very young team. Belgium and Croatia do not have a lot of youth. This coupled with the weather will make teams want to slow the game down. Canada could really take it to these teams as they did against an ageing Mexico (in the heat).

Bringing this over from the Scott Arfield thread...

I've seen these two items listed several times in various media talking about why we will or won't be successful in Qatar. On the weather front, I just wanted to point out that in late November in Doha the average daytime high is in the high 20's and the average low is ~20C. All of our games are at night, after sunset. I don't think heat will be a factor for any team, in either an advantage or disadvantage way. This is not San Pedro Sula at noon in July. 

On age, Belgium and Croatia both have a few key starters that are on the wrong side of 30, but so do we (Hutch/Vitoria being the primary concerns). Our average age may be lower (not even sure if this is true) but the notion that we're going to be running around like spring chickens while Modric and De Bruyne Bryan-Ruiz-it up and down the field is wishful thinking. 

If we're looking for reasons to be optimistic, I prefer to keep it simple. We have legit good players (especially in attack on the counter) and anything can happen in 90 minutes. 

 

[Cadeau]

My Moroccan friend (he also watches the moroccan league)...I dont know if hes trying to give me overconfidence but I told him I saw someone on tv or youtube, cant remember, saying Morocco was a perfect dark horse for the world cup because of weather, proximity etc...He said maybe if they change the coach but as of now, and saying recent form is no near the form of recent moroccan teams, and that Canada doesnt have to worry about Morocco. He really seems to think theyll be a non factor.

[Gian-Luca]

15 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Good overview. In line with the level of our Concacaf competition: I'd say that in no match during all qualification were we beaten, or did we get embarrased, by an opposing player making us look foolish. We never actually saw a great opposing performance, I'd risk saying not once. 

By a player, or  combo of players. We never ended a match saying "he/they gave us nightmares". In contrast, I think we were nightmarish over and over again for rival teams, we had stellar performances that showed rivals up. 

That suggests, first of all, that as you say we did not see top quality opposition. The most logical result of playing great teams is that they make you suffer, and terribly, whatever result you can pull out. Which is what I expect, for at least a few stages of matches, in Qatar: moments where we are really having trouble.

But the other side of that coin is that maybe, in a few cases, we closed down the potential of quality rivals very well. Whoever the best players in Concacaf are, we did not lose points because of them, maybe unless you want to say Keylor prevented us drawing in Costa Rica. 

I think the outfield player who gave us the most trouble was McKennie, especially in the game in Hamilton, and yet we won 2-0 in part because I think we did mostly limit his effectiveness in connecting with his teammates (although Borjan had to make a fantastic save against him at one point).

Even in that game, it probably helped the US that they didn't have the "fear factor" of having to worry about Davies on the pitch. Even when he doesn't contribute in the production of goals (as in the two games in Edmonton), his presence can still affect the way teams play against us. While we won our first 5 games where he was missing (and as I say, didn't really factor in any of the three goals in the last two victories we had before his illness began), I think that factor may become more important against more elite competition where they will likely build some of their game plan on the basis that they have to try to neutralize the threat. The difficulty for them will be that one never knows where Davies will be deployed by Herdman, other than it seems unlikely it will be in a back four a la Bayern where he can be scouted most regularly (although even there, I think he has played 3 different positions in his last three matches - winger, fullback and that bizarre CL turn as a CB against Villareal). You might even see him up top alongside Jonathan David as a pressing duo the way he was used against the US back in 2019.

[Bertuzzi44]

I think Belgium's "age" is being blown out of proportion. They are world #2 for a reason and will be big favourites over Canada for sure.

Also, by November:

Hutchinson 39
Borjan 35
Hoilett 32
Osorio 30
Vitoria 35

All these players could conceivably start. Not to mention 30+ players Henry, Wotherspoon, Cavallini, etc.

I've seen Belgium players like Axel Wistel (33) and Eden Hazard (31) called old. Uhhh, they ain't young, but both walk into this Canada side. De Bruyne (30) is absolute world class and Lukaku (28) is exactly 1 year older than Cyle Larin, who no one is saying is over the hill...

If Canada get a draw against Belgium it would be a coup. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

30 minutes ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

I think Belgium's "age" is being blown out of proportion. They are world #2 for a reason and will be big favourites over Canada for sure.

Also, by November:

Hutchinson 39
Borjan 35
Hoilett 32
Osorio 30
Vitoria 35

All these players could conceivably start. Not to mention 30+ players Henry, Wotherspoon, Cavallini, etc.

I've seen Belgium players like Axel Wistel (33) and Eden Hazard (31) called old. Uhhh, they ain't young, but both walk into this Canada side. De Bruyne (30) is absolute world class and Lukaku (28) is exactly 1 year older than Cyle Larin, who no one is saying is over the hill...

If Canada get a draw against Belgium it would be a coup. 

A huge coup. 

Personally, the big "old" concern in their side was the back 3 they played at the Euros last year - Alderweireld, Vertonghen, and Vermaelen.  They haven't  since  and won't be playing that lineup  at the World Cup (one is retired I believe). Boyata  is a decent age for a centre back, but he was a step down at least last year.  I was not overly impressed with Denayer in some games I recently saw him in.  I have not see much of the other replacements,  unless they put Castagne or Dendoncker there. Not the best part of their squad, but then much of the rest can be world class.

Lukaku looked better but still not amazing last night.  Hopefully he doesn't play his way into form.

De Bruyne is unplayable when healthy.

We need to play out of our skins and hope people are off their games or Martinez makes some bad calls.

[RS]

1 hour ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

Not to mention 30+ players Henry, Wotherspoon, Cavallini, etc.

Slight correction: Henry just turned 29 yesterday and Cavallini turns 30 after the World Cup. 😁

[Gian-Luca]

The issue with Belgium's age is more to do with the perception that as the vast majority of their best players of their golden generation have aged, the team has gone past their prime without actually winning anything (other than their qualifying groups). In relation to Canada, this is combined with the perception that Canada's best players are mostly in their prime (which might include Borjan at 35) or have yet to reach it, and many of these players have speed to burn that the aging Belgian defense will find difficult to cope with (assuming they stick with an aging defense).

We'd still be huge underdogs of course, but I think the discussion goes in that route because our strengths play into their perceived weakness, with the added perception of Belgium (or this version of them) are underachievers and Canada's team are overachievers (not that we qualified, but the way we qualified, dominating the Octoganal without our best player for 50% of the matches) and that trend may, despite there no reason for it being that way on paper, continue....

Edited April 21, 2022 by Gian-Luca

[PiedPilko]

Age seems like a good way of dismissing teams we know next to nothing about... just like someone might scroll through our Wikipedia page and dismiss us for inexperience.

[Obinna]

5 hours ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

I think Belgium's "age" is being blown out of proportion. They are world #2 for a reason and will be big favourites over Canada for sure.

Also, by November:

Hutchinson 39
Borjan 35
Hoilett 32
Osorio 30
Vitoria 35

All these players could conceivably start. Not to mention 30+ players Henry, Wotherspoon, Cavallini, etc.

I've seen Belgium players like Axel Wistel (33) and Eden Hazard (31) called old. Uhhh, they ain't young, but both walk into this Canada side. De Bruyne (30) is absolute world class and Lukaku (28) is exactly 1 year older than Cyle Larin, who no one is saying is over the hill...

If Canada get a draw against Belgium it would be a coup. 

Point taken, but Lukaku was born in 93 and Larin was born 95, so no he's not "exactly" one year older than Cyle. Lukaku will be 29 sometime this year. Larin turned 27 a few days ago.

[Bertuzzi44]

Another thing to consider is this whole "Belgium's Golden generation failed" narrative, which I have seen talked about quite a bit in the media, might be a huge motivator for them.

Like, they are #2 in the world but no one I have seen are putting them on a shortlist for winning this World Cup. But I bet in their dressing room they might feel like they have something to prove.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Bertuzzi44

[Unnamed Trialist]

Croatia, interesting detail: was listening to JJDTV's guest Croatian commentator, who was fairly good (not amazing but still informative), and was surprised by a detail: he couldn't give a clear starting 11.

Not even close in fact. Was not sure about keeping (and felt the Lille keeper was okay, oddly, though did not put him as first). Had serious doubts who to put in as the CBs, picked some younger guys. Was clearer about three mids, it seemed. Then Perisic. Then hummed and hawed about the striker, lamenting the loss of Mandzukic. Modric, Perisic, Kovacic, Brozovic from Inter, then....?

I find his uncertainty rather entertaining, and it does give me a bit of hope.

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Croatia, interesting detail: was listening to JJDTV's guest Croatian commentator, who was fairly good (not amazing but still informative), and was surprised by a detail: he couldn't give a clear starting 11.

Not even close in fact. Was not sure about keeping (and felt the Lille keeper was okay, oddly, though did not put him as first). Had serious doubts who to put in as the CBs, picked some younger guys. Was clearer about three mids, it seemed. Then Perisic. Then hummed and hawed about the striker, lamenting the loss of Mandzukic. Modric, Perisic, Kovacic, Brozovic from Inter, then....?

I find his uncertainty rather entertaining, and it does give me a bit of hope.

 

This was the Croatian fan I was referring to a few pages back. Previously I saw him do a Croatia vs USMNT player-for-player breakdown and it was much the same: debatable backline, frontline and keeper, but certain of the midfield. 

We should keep in mind he's a Croatian-American youtuber who in truth is probably no different than you and I, being that he's doing analysis as a fan. That's what we all do here, basically, and so we should remember that drawing conclusions based on that is likely no better or worse than Belgians or Croatians coming here for knowledge and intel.

I don't saw that to disparage anyone though and agree it's something we can probably be optimistic about, without necessarily taking it as gospel. We already had another Croatian come here and insist Vida and Lovern will not start. The guy Josh interviews seems less certain. So I don't think anyone really knows for sure, especially this far away from the tournament.

[NotCanadian]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Croatia, interesting detail: was listening to JJDTV's guest Croatian commentator, who was fairly good (not amazing but still informative), and was surprised by a detail: he couldn't give a clear starting 11.

Not even close in fact. Was not sure about keeping (and felt the Lille keeper was okay, oddly, though did not put him as first). Had serious doubts who to put in as the CBs, picked some younger guys. Was clearer about three mids, it seemed. Then Perisic. Then hummed and hawed about the striker, lamenting the loss of Mandzukic. Modric, Perisic, Kovacic, Brozovic from Inter, then....?

I find his uncertainty rather entertaining, and it does give me a bit of hope.

 

He can't even pronounce the names bro.

[Redpunkfiddle]

14 minutes ago, NotCanadian said:

He can't even pronounce the names bro.

It's pronounced 'brah' here, btw.

[Unnamed Trialist]

24 minutes ago, NotCanadian said:

He can't even pronounce the names bro.

Argue your point. If he's from Croatian stock, a fan, follows the team, and has a channel, he may have some knowledge. Or not. 

So just try not to be an ass and tell us: what will be the likely Croatia starting 11 vs. Canada? Is he wrong? 

We appreciate you on here, very much so, but as long as you are appreciable.

All I am saying: as someone who has watched a few NT players from Croatia over the years, I mean live in the stadium, and possibly more than you, but may not be able to pronounce their names right, I would not be too sure that your lovely diction gives you better knowledge of Suker, Prosinecki, Robert Jarni, Rakitic or Modric than me.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Obinna]

17 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Argue your point. If he's from Croatian stock, a fan, follows the team, and has a channel, he may have some knowledge. Or not. 

So just try not to be an ass and tell us: what will be the likely Croatia starting 11 vs. Canada? Is he wrong? 

We appreciate you on here, very much so, but as long as you are appreciable.

All I am saying: as someone who has watched a few NT players from Croatia over the years, I mean live in the stadium, and possibly more than you, but may not be able to pronounce their names right, I would not be too sure that your lovely diction gives you better knowledge of Suker, Prosinecki, Robert Jarni, Rakitic or Modric than me.

He's not being an ass and he's already given his opinion on the Croatia starting 11. Vida and Lovern will be replaced by the Leipzig and Marseille defenders, Gvardiol and Car. The backs will be Sosa and Pongracic from Stuttgart and Dortmund. The midfield is clear and the front line is less clear than midfield, but probably Perisic with Kramaric and/or maybe Rebic. We can go back and see what he says. I think he mentioned Majer doing well, but off the bench. Anyways, let's not pretend he never touched on the Croatian team already, and why don't you show some humility while you are at it, it goes a long way.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Obinna

[NotCanadian]

22 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Argue your point. If he's from Croatian stock, a fan, follows the team, and has a channel, he may have some knowledge. Or not. 

So just try not to be an ass and tell us: what will be the likely Croatia starting 11 vs. Canada? Is he wrong? 

We appreciate you on here, very much so, but as long as you are appreciable.

All I am saying: as someone who has watched a few NT players from Croatia over the years, I mean live in the stadium, and possibly more than you, but may not be able to pronounce their names right, I would not be too sure that your lovely diction gives you better knowledge of Suker, Prosinecki, Robert Jarni, Rakitic or Modric than me.

I didn't mean it in such a confrontational manner. I forgot I'm on a Canadian forum and people here wouldn't recognize the mistakes in his accent. It was just a joke, sorry if you interpreted it differently.

I can't give a full starting 11 vs Canada because if we beat Morocco we will rest players. In June we play 4 games in 10 days vs Austria, France and Denmark where we will have to use 2 separate teams. I guess the starting lineup for Canada will be similar to the starting lineup we use in the first game against Austria so check that one out on June 3rd.

[RS]

57 minutes ago, Obinna said:

why don't you show some humility while you are at it

Are you new here?

[Unnamed Trialist]

43 minutes ago, NotCanadian said:

I didn't mean it in such a confrontational manner. I forgot I'm on a Canadian forum and people here wouldn't recognize the mistakes in his accent. It was just a joke, sorry if you interpreted it differently.

I can't give a full starting 11 vs Canada because if we beat Morocco we will rest players. In June we play 4 games in 10 days vs Austria, France and Denmark where we will have to use 2 separate teams. I guess the starting lineup for Canada will be similar to the starting lineup we use in the first game against Austria so check that one out on June 3rd.

Fine, appreciated, but what we are saying: not even fans who can pronounce the names can tell us anything near to a starting 11? We have to wait to see two different ones in June? 

That gives a certain degree of optimism to Canada fans, because it suggests however confident you may be, you really do not have a defined team, clear starters, or any consensus on how you are going to play. 

Don't you find that odd?

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

He's not being an ass and he's already given his opinion on the Croatia starting 11. Vida and Lovern will be replaced by the Leipzig and Marseille defenders, Gvardiol and Car. The backs will be Sosa and Pongracic from Stuttgart and Dortmund. The midfield is clear and the front line is less clear than midfield, but probably Perisic with Kramaric and/or maybe Rebic. We can go back and see what he says. I think he mentioned Majer doing well, but off the bench. Anyways, let's not pretend he never touched on the Croatian team already, and why don't you show some humility while you are at it, it goes a long way.

Since he apologized, and I accepted, maybe you don't have to be so paternalistic about it.

Funny you think it is not at all rude or lacking in humility to suggest, as you have, that he's not smart enough to explain himself and you had to do it for him.

And on top of that, do it incorrectly.

To the point: both he and the guy on JJDTV admit that their starting 11 is not at all clear, and up in the air, which is frankly rather unusual for a team of their reputation. And suggests a certain consensus amongst Croatia fans. Better for us.

[frmr]

18 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Since he apologized, and I accepted, maybe you don't have to be so paternalistic about it.

Funny you think it is not at all rude or lacking in humility to suggest, as you have, that he's not smart enough to explain himself and you had to do it for him.

And on top of that, do it incorrectly.

To the point: both he and the guy on JJDTV admit that their starting 11 is not at all clear, and up in the air, which is frankly rather unusual for a team of their reputation. And suggests a certain consensus amongst Croatia fans. Better for us.

Yawn.

[Obinna]

11 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Since he apologized, and I accepted, maybe you don't have to be so paternalistic about it.

Funny you think it is not at all rude or lacking in humility to suggest, as you have, that he's not smart enough to explain himself and you had to do it for him.

And on top of that, do it incorrectly.

To the point: both he and the guy on JJDTV admit that their starting 11 is not at all clear, and up in the air, which is frankly rather unusual for a team of their reputation. And suggests a certain consensus amongst Croatia fans. Better for us.

Glad you guys kissed and made up. I just never wanted you telling him not to be an ass, or you boastfully claiming to know the Croatian players better than him, to kill the dialog we've recently been having. Really enjoying the insight from him and the Belgian about the teams we are going to face.

[Bison44]

Why would he apologize, he said he is a croatian and he has given lots of insights into the team, and the he is pointing out the the "coatian expert" has the pronunciations wrong.   Whats wrong with that??   

[Unnamed Trialist]

23 minutes ago, frmr said:

Yawn.

I know, I wrecked a perfectly good purse with that exchange.
And now we are never going to get another Croatian gentleman caller, I feel like Blanche in Streetcar Named Desire. 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Unnamed Trialist]

28 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Glad you guys kissed and made up. I just never wanted you telling him not to be an ass, or you boastfully claiming to know the Croatian players better than him, to kill the dialog we've recently been having. Really enjoying the insight from him and the Belgian about the teams we are going to face.

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/0831a63b-edb2-43a0-805a-7c095273e0eb