Group F Opponent Watch (Belgium, Croatia, Morocco)

[NotCanadian]

1 hour ago, hodgkiss said:

I love that other nations underrate us. The talk track about Belgium being experienced is on point but... I want to see these old Belgian players run in the heat of Qatar... When a pacey team like Canada (that is full of youth) starts running at Belgium, they are going to collapse. They will not be able to sustain keeping up with Canada in the heat. And the same goes for Croatia as well. These are great teams that we are talking about but they are OLD!

Major upset in the group. I see Morocco potentially taking points from Belgium and Croatia too.

 

Why do you think Croatia's team is old? Every English speaking media always says this, even 4 years ago vs England and last year vs Scotland and now again despite having one of our youngest squads ever. How is having Atiba and Vitoria better than Perisic and Modric? Those are our only players over 30 in the starting 11, one is a Top 5 Ballon dOr candidate and the other will probably win Serie A MVP if Inter wins the league.

[hodgkiss]

I am not English speaking media.

What about Vida, Lovren, Kalinic, Badelj?

[Obinna]

5 hours ago, NotCanadian said:

The coach was very cautious, basically saying the same things Martinez said. The media highlighted some players like David and Davies and wrote articles about them. Milan Borjan gave an interview where he talked about the Canadian NT, his upbringing and the ex-yu  leagues.

The football fans I talk to generally think Morocco is the most important game in the group for us. If we win that we can rest some players against Canada. It is tournament football after all and anything can happen so it's best to be prepared for every scenario.

Oh, and I'm Croatian living in Zagreb, Croatia. As my nickname suggests, I am not Canadian.

Are Croatians expecting the likes of Majer, Pasali, Gvardiol, Sosa, Caleta-Car (or Pongracic) to start against Canada, assuming you get the result against Morocco and rest players?

Canada fans and pundits have been highlighting the age of this Croatian side, but these are young players at good levels in Europe, not the old legs Canadians are expecting to play against. 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Obinna

[NotCanadian]

Just now, hodgkiss said:

I am not English speaking media.

What about Vida, Lovren, Kalinic, Badelj?

I meant I heard this incredibly often in the same way in 2018 vs England and 2021 vs Scotland. Word for word.

Vida is not in the starting 11 and is not even in top 5 best CBs. He is called up for "experience" but we have a theory in Croatia that Vida paid the coach millions just to reach 100 caps for Croatia. He is now at 97 so the suffering will hopefully soon end. Lovren is in the same boat. Won't be starting but I don't mind having him on the squad. Kalinic and Badelj haven't been called up since 2018.

[Blondo]

5 hours ago, Corazon said:

Did you ever watch Ugbo last season with Cercle Brugge when he was tied for 6th in scoring with 16 goals?  At Genk, I know Ugbo was back up striker for Paul Onuacho (who has 49 goals and counting in the pst two seasons).  But I’m surprised you don’t know much about him after he was one of Belgium’s top scorers in the 2020-21 season.

I didn't claim he wasn't up to snuff tout court (added "@Genk" to make that distinction). Doesn't look like an attacking side like Genk is a good fit for him; more of a striker that's useful in a relegation fight (like helping Cercle stay up and I guess Troyes now). More to the point, I wasn't expecting him to start against Belgium. I'm still getting to know your team. So how do you think Canada will line up against Belgium?

[Obinna]

19 minutes ago, NotCanadian said:

Why do you think Croatia's team is old? Every English speaking media always says this, even 4 years ago vs England and last year vs Scotland and now again despite having one of our youngest squads ever. How is having Atiba and Vitoria better than Perisic and Modric? Those are our only players over 30 in the starting 11, one is a Top 5 Ballon dOr candidate and the other will probably win Serie A MVP if Inter wins the league.

I assume Vida and Lovren are not starters in your mind? I do understand some Croatian fans prefer Caleta-Car and Gvardiol in the center back instead. 

[hodgkiss]

So you are suggesting that Croatia will field a young team and sit the older guys on the bench? They must be scared of Canada! Love it!

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, NotCanadian said:

I meant I heard this incredibly often in the same way in 2018 vs England and 2021 vs Scotland. Word for word.

Vida is not in the starting 11 and is not even in top 5 best CBs. He is called up for "experience" but we have a theory in Croatia that Vida paid the coach millions just to reach 100 caps for Croatia. He is now at 97 so the suffering will hopefully soon end. Lovren is in the same boat. Won't be starting but I don't mind having him on the squad. Kalinic and Badelj haven't been called up since 2018.

You answered my question as I was typing it. Thanks for touching on Lovren and Vida. 

[Blondo]

@all thanks for the introduction.

[NotCanadian]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Are Croatians expecting the likes of Majer, Pasali, Gvardiol, Sosa, Caleta-Carr and Pongracic to start against Canada, assuming you get the result against Morocco and rest players?

Canada fans and pundits have been highlighting the age of this Croatian side, but these are young players at good levels in Europe, not the old legs Canadians are expecting to play against. 

Gvardiol, Caleta-Car and Sosa are in the starting 11. Pasalic is one of the first subs to get on and Majer will replace Modric in one of the group stage games.

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, NotCanadian said:

Gvardiol, Caleta-Car and Sosa are in the starting 11. Pasalic is one of the first subs to get on and Majer will replace Modric in one of the group stage games.

Thanks. This is what I suspected from hearing another Croatian fan speak on it. Good to get that confirmation.

Because all 3 of these players are young, I assume none of them will get rotated out of the line up and rested if Croatia beat Morocco. Canada should be expecting to face them instead of the likes of Vida and Lovren. 

[NotCanadian]

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

Thanks. This is what I suspected from hearing another Croatian fan speak on it. Good to get that confirmation.

Because all 3 of these players are young, I assume none of them will get rotated out of the line up and rested if Croatia beat Morocco. Canada should be expecting to face them instead of the likes of Vida and Lovren. 

If we're well organized and confident in winning the group like in 2016 and 2018, we will probably have a game where we field our B team (Spain in 2016, Iceland in 2018). If it happens in 2022 it will be either the Canada game or the Belgium one.

[SpursFlu]

I think the soccer world is so big often times you don't know players until you know them. Im sure Croatia have a bunch of players around 23 playing in Serie A or wherever and during the World Cup we'll all be running to Wikipedia 

[Corazon]

17 minutes ago, Blondo said:

I didn't claim he wasn't up to snuff tout court (added "@Genk" to make that distinction). Doesn't look like an attacking side like Genk is a good fit for him; more of a striker that's useful in a relegation fight (like helping Cercle stay up and I guess Troyes now). More to the point, I wasn't expecting him to start against Belgium. I'm still getting to know your team. So how do you think Canada will line up against Belgium?

Check back with me in 6 months.  Right now this discussion is moot in my opinion.  

I will say Ugbo is the most interesting to discuss as he has yet to really be given an opportunity with Canada despite being one of only 3 of our players currently playing in one of the big 5 leagues.  Although you can likely make an argument that Eustaquio plays on the 2nd best team of all our players.  Ugbo could sign on to stay and score 10 goals with Troyes in the first couple months next season or he could go back Genk and ride the bench and score none in Belgium.  There is a reason, I've yet to give a potential World Cup lineup 7 months out from our first game.  It's fun for some people to predict and that's fine too.

[El Diego]

To be perfectly honest, I think the narrative that some media outlets in Canada have created around Belgium and Croatia getting older and declining is overblown and being pushed to maintain interest in the team (for casual fans) going into the World Cup. You cannot say to the general public that Canada are extreme underdogs and expect the hype to grow, so on the one hand I get it. On the other hand I think some of the comments from the media were somewhat disrespectful. As I mentioned in a previous topic media people kept bringing up how old Modric will be, glossing over the fact that they have mobile guys like Brozovic and Kovacic in midfield (while also conveniently leaving out that Modric is still, uh, dominating Champions League matches).

It was the one time I found myself wholeheartedly agreeing with Gareth Wheeler when he told the OneSoccer panel to pump their brakes.

[Califax]

But do Belgium and Croatia have a brotherhood?

*crickets*

Didn't think so.

[Obinna]

53 minutes ago, Blondo said:

I didn't claim he wasn't up to snuff tout court (added "@Genk" to make that distinction). Doesn't look like an attacking side like Genk is a good fit for him; more of a striker that's useful in a relegation fight (like helping Cercle stay up and I guess Troyes now). More to the point, I wasn't expecting him to start against Belgium. I'm still getting to know your team. So how do you think Canada will line up against Belgium?

Unfortunately, trying to predict Herdman's line ups has been a fool's errand. I do think Herdman will start what he feels is his best team against Belgium, it's just hard to anticipate what that'll be. Here's my take:

Players who will start for sure: Davies, David, Eustaquio, Borjan and Johnston

Players who are likely to start: Larin, Buchanan, Vitoria, Hutchinson, Kamal Miller, Laryea

Players who could possibly start: Osorio, Adekugbe, Hoilett, Kaye, Kennedy, Henry

Players who are unlikely to start: Liam Millar, Ugbo, Cavallini, Crepeau, Piette

Edited April 19, 2022 by Obinna

[Blondo]

@El Diego Belgium will most likely start plenty of old players v. Canada.

In November:

Courtois will be 30

Denayer 27

Alderweireld 33

Vertonghen 35 or Theate 22, nailed-on starter for Bologna; he could fill the need for a left-footed CB but if he starts against Canada it would be sorta unexpected (there were similar surprises in the past though); Vermaelen has retired despite some media thinking he's still getting called up)

Castagne 26

T.Hazard 29

Tielemans 25

Witsel 33

KDB 31

Hazard 31 (don't think Carrasco, 29, will get the nod)

Lukaku 29

 

Belgium isn't exactly a young team; hard to dispute that fact.

[SpursFlu]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium_national_under-21_football_team

I think older players from belgium will get the benefit of the doubt but who knows if any of these guys will punch their way in to the starting 11

[Blondo]

2 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium_national_under-21_football_team

I think older players from belgium will get the benefit of the doubt but who knows if any of these guys will punch their way in to the starting 11

Doku will make the cut if healthy and I'd expect Theate too. De Ketelaere is close but doubt he gets in.

Saelemaekers (a bit older, 22 - Milan) has proven to be a hard worker and stands a decent chance.

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

I don't think November will be too much of an issue, the North American-based players will have decent enough rest between the end of their season and the World Cup, but at the same time not too much rest so that they are completely rusty by not having played a meaningful match in 3 months (which was pretty much the case for our end-of-January World Cup Qualifying  window). MLS is strange in the sense that not all teams finish at the same time because of the playoff system, so some may have more rest (or time to prep for the WC) than others. The Euro-based players will be in the same boat as the Euro-based players for every other team.

The biggest prep issue for Canada IMO is quality of preparation, rather than quantity. The core of the team have played about 25 games together over the past year so they have good chemistry, and no doubt we'll get another 7 or so games in before November. The problem for us is that we haven't played any teams out of region in so long I can't even remember, and the last time we did many players who are key cogs to the team (Davies, David, Buchanan, Laryea, Eustaquio, Johnston) weren't even with the team at the time so for all intents of purposes this particular Canadian squad has never played a European-based team, let alone one of the better ones. And to that end, our team has not had to face any teams with a #10 of the calibre of Modric or De Bruyne. Neither the US or Mexico have anyone that really compares in terms of quality or positionally with the style they play, and neither do any of the other teams in this region (those that arguably do have a #10 aren't anywhere close to World Class calibre). So that could be difficult to adjust to, without proper preparation against similar calibre teams who also have an outstanding creative/attacking midfielder.

As for what I expect to see from Canada - I expect us to be underdogs in every game but to challenge and pose problems in every game against the teams they face, and I expect them to have a decent enough chance to make it out of the group. The team plays better than what it might suggest on paper (in terms of where the players play at their clubs), largely due to the chemistry between the players (in part off the field) with our coach who is a master motivator. I am sure there will be some nerves for the opening game but I expect they may get over them in a hurry. There also isn't a lot of pressure on them domestically (no real sense of "if they don't get out of the group, the whole cycle will be considered a failure"). The media here are also pretty gentle when it comes to that sort of thing - it is a much larger & caring media than it was before, but they still aren't anywhere near as critical, demanding or scrutinizing as most other countries when it comes to this sport.

Good overview. In line with the level of our Concacaf competition: I'd say that in no match during all qualification were we beaten, or did we get embarrased, by an opposing player making us look foolish. We never actually saw a great opposing performance, I'd risk saying not once. 

By a player, or  combo of players. We never ended a match saying "he/they gave us nightmares". In contrast, I think we were nightmarish over and over again for rival teams, we had stellar performances that showed rivals up. 

That suggests, first of all, that as you say we did not see top quality opposition. The most logical result of playing great teams is that they make you suffer, and terribly, whatever result you can pull out. Which is what I expect, for at least a few stages of matches, in Qatar: moments where we are really having trouble.

But the other side of that coin is that maybe, in a few cases, we closed down the potential of quality rivals very well. Whoever the best players in Concacaf are, we did not lose points because of them, maybe unless you want to say Keylor prevented us drawing in Costa Rica. 

[Obinna]

37 minutes ago, Blondo said:

Doku will make the cut if healthy and I'd expect Theate too. De Ketelaere is close but doubt he gets in.

Saelemaekers (a bit older, 22 - Milan) has proven to be a hard worker and stands a decent chance.

The fact that De Ketelaere could miss out, while his Club Brugge teammate Buchanan is a likely starter for Canada, really says a lot about the strength of these two teams. 

Everyone knows that Belgium is stronger than Canada, of course, but that puts it in perspective.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Obinna

[El Diego]

1 hour ago, Blondo said:

@El Diego Belgium will most likely start plenty of old players v. Canada.

In November:

Courtois will be 30

Denayer 27

Alderweireld 33

Vertonghen 35 or Theate 22, nailed-on starter for Bologna; he could fill the need for a left-footed CB but if he starts against Canada it would be sorta unexpected (there were similar surprises in the past though); Vermaelen has retired despite some media thinking he's still getting called up)

Castagne 26

T.Hazard 29

Tielemans 25

Witsel 33

KDB 31

Hazard 31 (don't think Carrasco, 29, will get the nod)

Lukaku 29

 

Belgium isn't exactly a young team; hard to dispute that fact.

Not young, indeed, but starting older players isn't inherently a sign of weakness. One has to ask, are they starting only because there are no other options, or are they starting because they are still great players.

Have to say I am surprised that Belgium are still relying on those centre backs...

[Unnamed Trialist]

After hearing these great contributions from @NotCanadian and @Blondo, have to say this: I think we are going to run at both.

We did not sit back at Azteca vs. Mexico, and doubt we do it in Qatar. We actually did not sit back in Hamilton either, we got an early goal and then shifted tactics.

We are going to try to use our best weapons, scoring prowess, get a goal, then play the counter, which is also one of our best weapons. And if we get behind we'll have the confidence to try to scratch one back, as we did away to the US and Mexico. 

I know this may sound nuts to our rivals, who must be thinking we will be suicidal and are snickering like Dick Dastardly and Muttley-my favourite actor btw--at our folly. But it is pretty well the best way we play. 

I hope I am right, because it will also be fun as hell if we attack Belgium and Croatia.

[MtlMario]

17 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

I was home visiting my dad the past couple of weeks. Our neighbours for the last 35+ years are Croatian-Canadian. The husband was born in Croatia, but the wife and kids are all Canadian-born. I met him out in the back yard while I was home and asked him if he had any mixed feelings about the World Cup and he immediately said that they'd be supporting Croatia fully. I suspect that that may be the case with most Croatian-Canadians.

It will make it all that sweeter when we kick their ass.😁