The Road to Qatar.

[JamboAl]

Don't disagree @gator but we are also getting the benefit of having played Jamaica with no fans where now the Americans have to go to the Office with fans in there.  If the Mexicans treat this properly, neither CR nor Panama should get anything at Azteca.

[frmr]

Honestly I think it suits our players to play with fans. We're a passionate team and our players like to play the villain role. Without that energy in the building, I could have seen Mexico getting the best of us.

[gator]

39 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Don't disagree @gator but we are also getting the benefit of having played Jamaica with no fans where now the Americans have to go to the Office with fans in there.  If the Mexicans treat this properly, neither CR nor Panama should get anything at Azteca.

Besides the debate of what advantage or disadvantage empty stadiums may or may not provide it is apparent that this punishment does not work and a points deduction is the only thing that will otherwise there is potential for inequality in this tournament! 

[Obinna]

This Mexican chant/ban thing is so annoying.

FIFA have committed to stomping it out of the game, but they aren't getting anywhere with it. I doubt they are going to control the behavior of fans by fining the FMF and/or deducting points from the team - which will do nothing more than tarnish the integrity of the competition and (most importantly) wrongly punishes the players for the actions of others.

Last I checked they (Hector Hererra, specifically) condemned the behavior and pled with the fans to stop.

Did they listen to him? No.

Should Hererra and his teammates suffer the consequence? No, not in my opinion. They aren't the ones chanting.

The appeal to the fans fell on deaf ears, that tells you all you need to know.

Honestly, I think FIFA bit off more than they can chew on this one. I can't help but feel they've painted themselves in a corner, because the longer it goes on the more pressure they face to find a solution, but the more they ban/punish the more non-compliance  from the fans. They problem has gotten worse, not better. It seems like a road to nowhere if you ask me.

I wouldn't be surprised to see this cloud lingering up until WC 2022 and beyond....

Edited November 1, 2021 by Obinna

[Joe MacCarthy]

^Totally agree

[frmr]

Honestly I find it funny. Homophobic stuff aside, which obviously nobody likes to see, I find it amusing that Fifa (who has no problem with other, often serious human rights concerns as long as it financially benefits them) has taken this stance, which most people understand is some half-hearted virtue signalling, and the Mexican fans are basically laughing in their face. Which, fair enough: Fifa is a fucking joke when it comes to policing human rights concerns in the global game, and the fact they decided to zero in on one specific chant, but have turned a blind eye to many other, probably more serious offenses, makes this debacle all the more pathetic.

I certainly don't support the chant but part of me enjoys seeing it because it shows how pathetic this crusade from Fifa really is. If Mexico had huge oil reserves like they do in the Middle East, there's not a snowball's chance in hell this would be happening.

[SpursFlu]

So if we play Oman in the inter continental qualifying will they be forced to play in an empty stadium? According to their laws, homosexuality can earn you up to 3 years in prison. That's likely getting off easy if the mob doesn't get to you first.

This is extremely insulting to the gay community. To think they're so delicate, sensitive and helpless that can't hear a word that may or may not be insulting. Nobody with any sense gives a crap. 

[kobasew19]

Deduct Mexico 1 precious WCQ point and that will stop the chanting.  If only the federation had the balls to do it. 

[theaub]

9 minutes ago, kobasew19 said:

Deduct Mexico 1 precious WCQ point and that will stop the chanting.  If only the federation had the balls to do it. 

Ruining the integrity of competition because of FIFA's extremely selective stance on homophobia is not the answer.

[Obinna]

8 minutes ago, kobasew19 said:

Deduct Mexico 1 precious WCQ point and that will stop the chanting.  If only the federation had the balls to do it. 

The Mexican fans would likely rebel and nothing will be accomplished. Take it to the extreme and Mexico would fail to qualify for the world cup - and the fans would still not comply.

[Bison44]

^^^  Sure it would, the team would get punished where it hurts.  Mexico misses a WC because of a chant..and I'll bet they try a little harder to change that chant.  

[lamptern]

FIFA is too dumb to find this solution:

Mexico away games: turn a blind eye on any chants because it not FMF's responsibility. 

Mexico home games: Fine FMF every incident happened. And double up the amount next occurrence. Until FMF to decide playing games with closed stands. No points should be deducted since it's not the Mexican team's fault. It's FMF to figure out how to stop this and to avoid being fined by FIFA. 

 

[Obinna]

31 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

^^^  Sure it would, the team would get punished where it hurts.  Mexico misses a WC because of a chant..and I'll bet they try a little harder to change that chant.  

Fairy tale thinking, IMO. 

Maybe they can force Mexico to play behind closed doors in perpetuity? You can't have the chant without fans, right?

[gator]

Yes, maybe the points deduction is not fair to the team so I suppose the empty stadium is the only answer and I still feel that presents inequities in this qualification tournament! I agree with some of the above posts that there is a ton of hypocrisy on FIFA's part and they may have taken on a fight they just aren't gonna win!

[dyslexic nam]

43 minutes ago, theaub said:

Ruining the integrity of competition because of FIFA's extremely selective stance on homophobia is not the answer.

The integrity of the competition is already being impacted because it is very different playing in front of a rabid hostile crowd and playing in an empty stadium (which feels like neutral ground, altitude aside in this case).  By taking the decision they did, all FIFA did was provide an advantage to some competitors on the Ocho (and obviously not the ones who were present during the chants).  To me, that has a much bigger impact on the integrity of the competition than deducting points from Mexico which would not give any team an advantage and would only punish the offending party.   It may not be perfect but when considering the integrity of the competition it is the most fair punishment.  

And make no mistake, the Mexican FA would take this issue far more seriously and enforce their own punishments if there was a threat of missing out on the WC.   
 

[theaub]

Mexico getting docked points for homophobic chanting and then missing a World Cup in a country where homosexuality is illegal would be peak FIFA tbf.

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

The integrity of the competition is already being impacted because it is very different playing in front of a rabid hostile crowd and playing in an empty stadium (which feels like neutral ground, altitude aside in this case).  By taking the decision they did, all FIFA did was provide an advantage to some competitors on the Ocho (and obviously not the ones who were present during the chants).  To me, that has a much bigger impact on the integrity of the competition than deducting points from Mexico which would not give any team an advantage and would only punish the offending party.   It may not be perfect but when considering the integrity of the competition it is the most fair punishment.  

And make no mistake, the Mexican FA would take this issue far more seriously and enforce their own punishments if there was a threat of missing out on the WC.   
 

Sure, but 1 team would qualify for the World Cup that shouldn't. Sending a team to the WC who never deserved to qualify is pretty high on the integrity degradation scale. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

Objectively racial abuse is much worse, as it is directed at players on the field and deliberately wants to use race as a way of provoking a rival. No player should have to play in those circumstances, like anyone in any work environment with that sort of abuse. 

As a fully fluent Spanish speaker I always thought this was dumb, but I get someone in Mexico thought they could use that one chant to leverage something in favour of gay rights in Mexico. I take it as equivalent to what is said in Spain, "cabrón", which is a male goat but really means a "cuckhold" in older Spanish, and just plain bastard or asshole in common use. It is the old "you fat bastard", which MLS has no problem with at BC Place, and which is done in a silly mocking way that is so childish no one could seriouly think they are calling the opposing keeper a fat bastard. Until someone comes along and decides that should go too. 

Not nearly as nasty as the old "pedophile" chants reserved for opposing keepers at Swangard to the tune of "Walking in a Winter Wonderland". Who led those, can't remember?

If you look Mexico has legalised gay marriage and it is now considered unconstitutional to deny a couple the right to marriage for reasons of sexual orientation. So I get that there is an effort being made politically, and that most regions have ratified or are in line with the ruling. It's a top down, bureaucratic thing I'd say. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Unnamed Trialist

[Obinna]

14 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Objectively racial abuse is much worse, as it is directed at players on the field and deliberately wants to use race as a way of provoking a rival. No player should have to play in those circumstances, like anyone in any work environment with that sort of abuse. 

As a fully fluent Spanish speaker I always thought this was dumb, but I get someone in Mexico thought they could use that one chant to leverage something in favour of gay rights in Mexico. I take it as equivalent to what is said in Spain, "cabrón", which is a male goat but really means a "cuckhold" in older Spanish, and just plain bastard or asshole in common use. It is the old "you fat bastard", which MLS has no problem with at BC Place, and which is done in a silly mocking way that is so childish no one could seriouly think they are calling the opposing keeper a fat bastard. Until someone comes along and decides that should go too. 

Not nearly as the old "pedophile" chants reserved for opposing keepers at Swangard to the tune of "Walking in a Winter Wonderland"

If you look Mexico has legalised gay marriage and it is now considered unconstitutional to deny a couple the right to marriage for reasons of sexual orientation. So I get that there is an effort being made politically, and that most regions have ratified or are in line with the ruling. It's a top down, bureaucratic thing I'd say. 

This is part of the problem IMO.

The same word in Spanish can have multiple meanings depending on the country. I dated a Venezuelan girl for several years and learned that. We don't really have the same thing in English, or at least not to the same degree. Not even close. 

I personally couldn't give two shits about the chant, but there's clearly disagreement about the meaning. I see people argue it's meaning when I view online dialog on this matter. You are not going to get compliance if they don't even agree with you what the word means. 

I wish the whole thing would go away, because it's stupid on so many levels. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Obinna

[RS]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

The same word in Spanish can have multiple meanings depending on the country. I dated a Venezuelan girl for several years and learned that. We don't really have the same thing in English.

Are you sure about that?

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, RS said:

Are you sure about that?

Corrected myself - there's a bit of it, but it's hardly to the same extent. 

[dyslexic nam]

31 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Sure, but 1 team would qualify for the World Cup that shouldn't. Sending a team to the WC who never deserved to qualify is pretty high on the integrity degradation scale. 

I disagree.  Will a 3 point deduction keep Mexico out of the WC?  No.  It wouldn’t be enough to move them from 1st to 4th or 5th.  They will still make the WC and thus there is likely no undeserving party getting a spot in that scenario.  

Plus by offering specific teams an advantage via the stadium ban, you are MORE likely to have an undeserving team get a WC spot.  Look at what is happening now.  The teams getting an advantage against Mexico via the stadium ban are Panama and CR.  These are two of the teams that are in the dogfight for positions 3 and 4.  It is entirely possible that the final 1.5 qualifying spots will be decided by a point or two.  By allowing only some of those middling teams (and we are still one of them) to compete against Mexico without their rabid fans in the stadium, those teams are much more likely to get a positive result and vital points.

Thus I would argue that the stadium ban is MORE likely to result in an undeserving team making the WC than a points deduction which would not impact the point totals of teams 2-8.  

Bottom line is that one way (the stadium ban) offers an advantage to a random subset of teams in the competition.  They get to play the regional powerhouse without their fans, while other teams in the competition have a relative disadvantage.  

The other way (points deduction) only disadvantages the offending party.  No other team in the completion gets any advantage over any other party and all get an equal benefit compared to Mexico.  

To me, the latter option is clearly the more fair.

Edited November 1, 2021 by dyslexic nam

[Obinna]

7 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I disagree.  Will a 3 point deduction keep Mexico out of the WC?  No.  It wouldn’t be enough to move them from 1st to 4th or 5th.  They will still make the WC and this there is likely no undeserving party getting a spot in that scenario.  

Plus by offering specific teams an advantage via the stadium ban, you are MORE likely to have an undeserving team get a WC spot.  Look at what is happening now.  The teams getting an advantage against Mexico via the stadium ban are Panama and CR.   These are two of the teams that are in the dogfight for positions 3 and 4.  It is entirely possible that the final 1.5 qualifying spots with be decided by a point or two.  By allowing only some of those middling teams (and we are still one of them) to compete against Mexico without their rabid fans in the stadium, those teams are much more likely to get a positive result and vital points.

Thus I would argue that the stadium ban is MORE likely to result in an undeserving team making the WC than a points deduction Wilbur GC would not impact the point totals of teams 2-8.  

Bottom line is that one way (the stadium ban) offers an advantage to a random subset of teams in the competition.  They get to play the regional powerhouse without their fans, while other teams in the competition have a relative disadvantage.  

The other way (points deduction) only disadvantages the offending party.  No other team in the completion gets any advantage over any other party and all get an equal benefit compared to Mexico.  

To me, the latter option is clearly the more fair.

Agree to disagree I guess! 

The "advangage of playing without fans" is not even agreed upon in this thread...

3 hours ago, frmr said:

Honestly I think it suits our players to play with fans. We're a passionate team and our players like to play the villain role. Without that energy in the building, I could have seen Mexico getting the best of us.

 

[RS]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Corrected myself - there's a bit of it, but it's hardly to the same extent. 

Without seriously looking into it, I don't think either of us could definitively say one way or the other. English has tons of words that have multiple meanings, not even depending on the country. When you add regional/national dialects (e.g. American English vs. British English), there are even more.

My point is that Spanish is not unique in this trait. I guess my larger point is that it's a bit of a cop-out to simply blame it on a different usage of words from one country to the next, as if that's only true in Spanish. Even if it was, enough Mexican-based personalities have spoken out about it to confirm that it is considered offensive in Mexican Spanish, IMO.

I tend to agree on the narrative that FIFA is ridiculously inconsistent on this, even hypocritically so, but that doesn't mean it should stop trying to eliminate this specific chant.

 

[SpursFlu]

Hello mole Hill... how can I turn you into a mountain? And maybe get some good old fashion in fighting going on in the western world

I know..  Let the mega corps put your organization on a leash and take you for a walk

Edited November 1, 2021 by SpursFlu