The Road to Qatar.

[RS]

1 minute ago, SpursFlu said:

Hello mole Hill... now how can I turn you into a mountain? And maybe get some good old fashion in fighting going in the western world

Let the the mega corps put your organization on a leash and take you for a walk

[Obinna]

Just now, RS said:

Without seriously looking into it, I don't think either of us could definitively say one way or the other. English has tons of words that have multiple meanings, not even depending on the country. When you add regional/national dialects (e.g. American English vs. British English), there are even more.

My point is that Spanish is not unique in this trait. I guess my larger point is that it's a bit of a cop-out to simply blame it on a different usage of words from one country to the next, as if that's only true in Spanish. Even if it was, enough Mexican-based personalities have spoken out about it to confirm that it is considered offensive in Mexican Spanish, IMO.

I tend to agree on the narrative that FIFA is ridiculously inconsistent on this, even hypocritically so, but that doesn't mean it should stop trying to eliminate this specific chant.

 

@Unnamed Trialist or another Spanish speaker can weigh in on that point if they'd like...

But fair enough. To me it's just one of those things that makes a difficult task that much harder. We could debate how much of a factor it is, but it's probably not zero.

[Unnamed Trialist]

24 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I disagree.  Will a 3 point deduction keep Mexico out of the WC?  No.  It wouldn’t be enough to move them from 1st to 4th or 5th.  They will still make the WC and thus there is likely no undeserving party getting a spot in that scenario.  

Plus by offering specific teams an advantage via the stadium ban, you are MORE likely to have an undeserving team get a WC spot.  Look at what is happening now.  The teams getting an advantage against Mexico via the stadium ban are Panama and CR.  These are two of the teams that are in the dogfight for positions 3 and 4.  It is entirely possible that the final 1.5 qualifying spots will be decided by a point or two.  By allowing only some of those middling teams (and we are still one of them) to compete against Mexico without their rabid fans in the stadium, those teams are much more likely to get a positive result and vital points.

Thus I would argue that the stadium ban is MORE likely to result in an undeserving team making the WC than a points deduction which would not impact the point totals of teams 2-8.  

Bottom line is that one way (the stadium ban) offers an advantage to a random subset of teams in the competition.  They get to play the regional powerhouse without their fans, while other teams in the competition have a relative disadvantage.  

The other way (points deduction) only disadvantages the offending party.  No other team in the completion gets any advantage over any other party and all get an equal benefit compared to Mexico.  

To me, the latter option is clearly the more fair.

I don't think it is at all the case, as Mexico has enormous pressure to come first and win always, and that does not change. They don't need fans to be motivated.

But just in case: if they lose points the next window, and we can help them with that, then they won't be clear in Jan-Feb and will have to play hard regardless. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Unnamed Trialist

[RS]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

But fair enough. To me it's just one of those things that makes a difficult task that much harder. We could debate how much of a factor it is, but it's probably not zero.

You're right, it's probably not zero. But FIFA shouldn't ignore it just because some Spanish words have different meanings in different countries.

[Obinna]

Just now, RS said:

You're right, it's probably not zero. But FIFA shouldn't ignore it just because some Spanish words have different meanings in different countries.

They probably could have found a way to denounced it without launching this crusade, considering they awarded the WC to Qatar.

IMO they were too eager to virtue signal, jumped in feet first, and are now exposed for what they are - hypocrites.

The fact of the matter here is that our word in question has different meanings, so we can toss away the point about higher incidence of multiple meanings in Spanish vs English, but regardless there's disagreement on what the word means and that's another layer of "problem", right?

[RS]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

They probably could have found a way to denounced it without launching this crusade, considering they awarded the WC to Qatar.

They could have. That would have been literal virtue signalling, though.

At the end of the day, FIFA's the wrong entity to really being enforcing anything to do with LGBT issues, racism, sexism, etc., given their track record. But unfortunately, FIFA's also the governing body for the sport, so they're also the only entity that has the power to actually do anything about it.

16 minutes ago, Obinna said:

IMO they were too eager to virtue signal, jumped in feet first, and are now exposed for what they are - hypocrites.

Virtue signalling would have been denouncing it then just leaving it be. They're actually taking action, so I don't think it falls under that definition.

It's definitely hypocritical, and it's probably not the right action, but I don't see it as a virtue signal.

8 minutes ago, Obinna said:

The fact of the matter here is that our word in question has different meanings, so we can toss away the point about higher incidence of multiple meanings in Spanish vs English, but regardless there's disagreement on what the word means and that's another layer of "problem", right?

Words are constantly evolving to have different meanings, that's just language in general.

As for the word in question, it doesn't really matter whether it's inoffensive in other Spanish-speaking countries. What matters is the Mexican context.

[footballfreak]

I’m all for a a bit of FIFA bashing, but the attempts to portray the current FIFA leadership as hypocritical because of Qatar 2022 are not made in good faith. The current FIFA Leadership group that is going after Mexico is not composed of the same people as the one that awarded Qatar the World Cup in 2010. Even if this group wanted to stop Qatar from hosting, any attempt to pull the tournament would end up with FIFA losing untold millions.

The push against Mexico is almost certainly to avoid any undue embarrassment to FIFA when World Cup 2026 rolls around. They’re pushing the Mexican FA to deal with it because it covers FIFA’s ass either way. Either the Mexican FA successfully stamps out the chant, or FIFA gets to say “we tried” when the chant gets used anyways at WC2026. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by footballfreak
A word

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Agree to disagree I guess! 

The "advangage of playing without fans" is not even agreed upon in this thread...

 

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I don't think it is at all the case, as Mexico has enormous pressure to come first and win always, and that does not change. They don't need fans to be motivated.

I guess we will see.  For me the biggest injustice would be if Panama or CR manage to grab vital points in Mexico that ultimately have an impact on the qualification process.  
 

[Obinna]

41 minutes ago, RS said:

They could have. That would have been literal virtue signalling, though.

At the end of the day, FIFA's the wrong entity to really being enforcing anything to do with LGBT issues, racism, sexism, etc., given their track record. But unfortunately, FIFA's also the governing body for the sport, so they're also the only entity that has the power to actually do anything about it.

Yeah I guess you can say that.

I do agree they are not the organization to be tackling such complex issues, but they are also the governing body of the sport, so they probably felt they were caught between a rock and a hard. Who are people going to look towards to solve the issue? Them.

As offensive and bothersome and unnecessary as the chant is (I mean, if you're really upsetting people, why not stop?), it's not directed at those who take offense, which makes it particularly challenging (and different than the racism issue).

At the end of the day, some people have the attitude that offended parties should "get over it" because sticks and stones and stuff. It's clearly an insensitive attitude, but it exists...

That's just the reality and if I were a betting man I would bet they can't successfully ban that attitude out of existence. I don't even think they can ban the racism issue out of existence.

41 minutes ago, RS said:

Virtue signalling would have been denouncing it then just leaving it be. They're actually taking action, so I don't think it falls under that definition.

People are calling their actions "virtue signaling" because they are inconsistent with an organization who claims to be fighting homophobia. If you're sincere about it you'd haul the WC from Qatar or better yet you wouldn't have awarded it to them in the first place. I know it's not that easy and millions of dollars are at stake, but people are going to want FIFA to put their money where their mouth is, now that they've opened it.

41 minutes ago, RS said:

What matters is the Mexican context.

Yes and within that context there is no consensus of the "real" meaning of the word.  

Edited November 1, 2021 by Obinna

[Obinna]

25 minutes ago, footballfreak said:

I’m all for a a bit of FIFA bashing, but the attempts to portray the current FIFA leadership as hypocritical because of Qatar 2022 are not made in good faith. The current FIFA Leadership group that is going after Mexico is not composed of the same people as the one that awarded Qatar the World Cup in 2010. Even if this group wanted to stop Qatar from hosting, any attempt to pull the tournament would end up with FIFA losing untold millions.

The push against Mexico is almost certainly to avoid any undue embarrassment to FIFA when World Cup 2026 rolls around. They’re pushing the Mexican FA to deal with it because it covers FIFA’s ass either way. Either the Mexican FA successfully stamps out the chant, or FIFA gets to say “we tried” when the chant gets used anyways at WC2026. 

Totally agree with your second paragraph, it's a great point. 

But I don't think most people are consciously portraying FIFA in bad faith, because I don't think most people are comparing and contrasting the leadership groups. I hadn't even considered that point on leadership groups before you brought it up, and I have been weighing in on this discussion on and off all day.

[Neil R.]

It looks like Honduras has also been sanctioned, which may benefit us. They received the "1 match with a limited number of spectators" sanction twice. Their next 2 home matches are against Panama and us. It would be nice to have San Pedro Sula at reduced capacity for our match in January.

[SthMelbRed]

4 hours ago, Obinna said:

This Mexican chant/ban thing is so annoying.

FIFA have committed to stomping it out of the game, but they aren't getting anywhere with it. I doubt they are going to control the behavior of fans by fining the FMF and/or deducting points from the team - which will do nothing more than tarnish the integrity of the competition and (most importantly) wrongly punishes the players for the actions of others.

Last I checked they (Hector Hererra, specifically) condemned the behavior and pled with the fans to stop.

Did they listen to him? No.

Should Hererra and his teammates suffer the consequence? No, not in my opinion. They aren't the ones chanting.

The appeal to the fans fell on deaf ears, that tells you all you need to know.

Honestly, I think FIFA bit off more than they can chew on this one. I can't help but feel they've painted themselves in a corner, because the longer it goes on the more pressure they face to find a solution, but the more they ban/punish the more non-compliance  from the fans. They problem has gotten worse, not better. It seems like a road to nowhere if you ask me.

I wouldn't be surprised to see this cloud lingering up until WC 2022 and beyond....

Deduct points from any Mexico match where the chant is heard and ban all Mexican fans from the World Cup proper and I'm sure you'll see the dickheads shut up at the next opposition goalkick.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, SpursFlu said:

Hello mole Hill... how can I turn you into a mountain? And maybe get some good old fashion in fighting going on in the western world

What is China?

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, SthMelbRed said:

Deduct points from any Mexico match where the chant is heard and ban all Mexican fans from the World Cup proper and I'm sure you'll see the dickheads shut up at the next opposition goalkick.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Cblake]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I'll believe it when I see it.

I agree but that is the only statement left to make, closed door, reduced capacity games can happen for all sorts of reasons, from the pandemic to civil unrest, the homophobic behaviour that the Mexican fans seem hellbent in taking part in, there is only thing left to do to shut them up and hopefully make them realize what they are doing is unacceptable. I know the players have nothing to do with it, but a point reduction is the only meaningful thing they can do at this point. 

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, Cblake said:

I agree but that is the only statement left to make, closed door, reduced capacity games can happen for all sorts of reasons, from the pandemic to civil unrest, the homophobic behaviour that the Mexican fans seem hellbent in taking part in, there is only thing left to do to shut them up and hopefully make them realize what they are doing is unacceptable. I know the players have nothing to do with it, but a point reduction is the only meaningful thing they can do at this point. 

Maybe I am wrong and it will work out, but I just don't see it. Time will tell though, I suppose.

[SpursFlu]

I hear "Concacafed" has been labeled hate speech. I'm thinking a stadium ban might be coming for Canada. Always did feel a bit iffy to me

[SpursFlu]

29 minutes ago, Obinna said:

What is China?

I'll take "Everything seems a little Weird at the Moment" for $800 Alex

Ahhh.. the daily double 

[An Observer]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

As offensive and bothersome and unnecessary as the chant is (I mean, if you're really upsetting people, why not stop?), it's not directed at those who take offense, which makes it particularly challenging (and different than the racism issue).

I don’t think it matters whether the chant is directed at those that take offence or not.  Imagine if the chant was “kick it like a girl” or worse “kick it like” and then fill in N word.  People would be offended by that. The point is weather you are allowing an atmosphere in to be created which is discriminatory against a certain group.

I don’t know enough Spanish to know whether the word is that offensive or not but even a chant like “kick it like a girl” should be stamped out so I am fine for FIFA doing what it is doing. And yeah, I would ultimately think that you go through an escalating series of punishments which goes through points deductions to ultimately disqualification from the World Cup.  And as for the players losing out, you are at the whims of your federation and fans.  So you need to do everything possible to actively get your fans to stamp it out. 

As for Qatar and it’s human rights record and attitude to gay rights, that’s a big problem and it’s definitely an issue. I can see why people see it as duplicitous. But I do think the stadium behaviour is different as it’s right in your face as fans hear it in the stands and on the tv.  That being said, I for one would be completely onboard with FIFA having a code on human rights where hosts need to abide by. And frankly, I suspect that is where FIFA and the Olympics will ultimately be pushed. 

[EJsens1]

3 hours ago, An Observer said:

That being said, I for one would be completely onboard with FIFA having a code on human rights where hosts need to abide by. And frankly, I suspect that is where FIFA and the Olympics will ultimately be pushed. 

They don’t care.  They say they do but they really don’t.  Time and time again they go where the money is.  I see nothing to suggest otherwise.  Look recently where some of the Olympics and World Cups have been..Russia for both, China 2 Olympic Games, Brazil for both, Qatar next.  It’s only a matter of time before China get’s a world cup 

[An Observer]

6 minutes ago, EJsens1 said:

They don’t care.  They say they do but they really don’t.  Time and time again they go where the money is.  I see nothing to suggest otherwise.  Look recently where some of the Olympics and World Cups have been..Russia for both, China 2 Olympic Games, Brazil for both, Qatar next.  It’s only a matter of time before China get’s a world cup 

I agree that they don't care but if people on here can point out the duplicity of their FIFA stop racism and discrimination campaigns with their standards for hosting, I suspect others will continue to do so which is what I meant by being ultimately pushed to do so.  It may take 10 or 20 years but its coming

[Kent]

I don't think the World Cup should have ever been awarded to Qatar, but it would be very, very tough to come up with a list of things for a moral standard that hosts have to live up to. There will probably be varying levels of backlash from different areas. For example, the death penalty. Lots, and lots of people are against that, but is it going to be put in a FIFA human rights list and therefor ban the USA from hosting the World Cup? There is no way that would happen. I'm not a legal expert by any means, but I'm guessing you could dig up dirt on every country depending on how low the bar is set.

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

Update on injuries for Panama and the fact that they will be looking for friendlies prior to the January window:

https://www.swissinfo.ch/spa/fútbol-catar-2022_christiansen-pide-apelar-sanción-que-impide-a-panamá-jugar-con-público/47085550

[narduch]

El Salvador is playing a friendly tonight in DC v Bolivia

[Kadenge]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

El Salvador is playing a friendly tonight in DC v Bolivia

they need to raise $s to pay their FIFA fines