Jacob Shaffelburg

[Gian-Luca]

It’s a shame they didn’t let Jacob take the PK he earned as Dax McCarty’s strike was woeful. Since it was an inconsequential pk (end of the game, team already up 3-0 against 10 men), you would think they would let the PK earner or maybe a guy on a hat trick take it

[TOcanadafan]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

And some proples default setting is defend them at all costs.

After the loan move, Peter Galindo put out a tweet giving the opinion (and rightly so) that TFC mismanages their Academy to 1st team pipeline and presented a list of other franchises that do it better.  Many TFC supporters respond with a “at least we won a championship” chirp.  I replied by stating that TFC has outspent every other MLS team each year since 2014, some years almost double / triple most everyone else, so it’s rather disappointing that they only have one title and I get piled on as well.  
I find it ridiculous that some feel you can’t critique the management of the team you cheer for.  As a TFC and CMNT fan I’m actually very disappointed that they are once again going with the out-spend everyone else route, instead of trying to compete by building a successful / sustainable ‘develop from within and augment with a couple of from-outside signings’ model.

[Obinna]

The culture of MLSE is such that maximizing the talent in the GTA will never, ever happen. By culture I mean spending a lot and winning relatively little. It's the same for the Leafs and the Raptors. 

Other clubs are forced to maximize what they have because they don't have the money to spend (or at least aren't willing to spend). TFC can always default to outspending everyone else, but other clubs can't. In fact, this just happened with the "Ali Curtis/NYRB model" experiment. They tried and it wasn't working, so they abandoned it. They can afford to.

There is no plan B for most other clubs. Other clubs "need" to make the tight budget work, or at least have a big desire to make it work. Toronro don't, which is the gift and a curse of this franchise.

The temptation to spend will never lead to a long term commitment to maximize player development, I am conviced.

So here we are back to the spend, spend, spend plan. If TFC don't win at least 4 major trophies (MLS Cup, SS, CCL) during the Insigne/Bernadeschi era, that will be a major disappointment in my eyes. I want at least 4 trophies (any combination will do).

I also want a clean sweep in Voyageurs cups, or they should at least come close to it. That's not an unfair expectation considering the money they are spending from now until 2026.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Obinna

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

31 minutes ago, Obinna said:

The culture of MLSE is such that maximizing the talent in the GTA will never, ever happen...

They spent big on the Downsview facility with little to show for it initially but it takes time to build a soccer culture. When other MLS teams want your castoffs such as Shaffelburg, Prso and Russell-Rowe it's a sign that the Academy is finally doing something useful. Being second in the East in Next Pro also suggests things are heading in the right direction in that context after less than stellar performances in the past in a USL context. Spending big on DPs and the Academy system isn't either/or. Doing both well is the key to being one of the dominant franchises in MLS terms.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[narduch]

3 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

They spent big on the Downsview facility with little to show for it initially but it takes time to build a soccer culture. When other MLS teams want your castoffs such as Shaffelburg, Prso and Russell-Rowe it's a sign that the Academy is finally doing something useful. Being second in the East in Next Pro also suggests things are heading in the right direction in that context after less than stellar performances in the past in a USL context. Spending big on DPs and the Academy system isn't either/or. Doing both well is the key to being one of the dominant franchises in MLS terms.

You will be making this same excuse in 5 years.

How many years do you have to wait before it becomes obvious the people running the ship aren't doing a good job at it.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

It was obvious that the people running the ship weren't doing a good job last season because the three DP players were turning in subpar performances and second rate journeymen were being used instead of Academy products with no obvious return in terms of results. As a consequence crowds were alarmingly low and could have gone much the same way as Vancouver this season without some radical changes.

Enter Bob Bradley, exit Ali Curtis and Javier Perez and almost all of those second rate journeyman with one more transfer window needed to fully reload on DPs and Insigne and Bernardeschi already scoring goals for fun Giovinco style and the future is looking quite promising because the young Canadian players have done reasonably OK for the most part after finally being given a chance and will improve further.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Bison44]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

You will be making this same excuse in 5 years

How many years do you have to wait before it becomes obvious the people running the ship aren't doing a good job at it.

Funny how he can see it takes years for TFC to do something with the biggest and prob the best hotbed of talent in canada, but he's been chirping about the failure of CPL to get someone to CMNT level without giving them a similar time frame.  

2 hours ago, TOcanadafan said:

  I find it ridiculous that some feel you can’t critique the management of the team you cheer for.  As a TFC and CMNT fan I’m actually very disappointed that they are once again going with the out-spend everyone else route, instead of trying to compete by building a successful / sustainable ‘develop from within and augment with a couple of from-outside signings’ model.

Have you found the last few games, even the wins as hollow??  I think I like Bernardechi better, but parachuting guys in that seem to just like passing to each other seems wrong.  Kind of like Kelly Leak making all the plays in the bad news bears.  Maybe it'll just take more time.  

[narduch]

2 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

 

Have you found the last few games, even the wins as hollow??  I think I like Bernardechi better, but parachuting guys in that seem to just like passing to each other seems wrong.  Kind of like Kelly Leak making all the plays in the bad news bears.  Maybe it'll just take more time.  

Basically feels like playing a video game with a cheat code. It's pretty obvious Insigne and Bernardeschi are too good for MLS.

I would argue TFC still don't even have any real plan. The summer window kinda highlights this. They were never serious about player development. 

And that's their prerogative. I just don't agree with it

Edited August 28, 2022 by narduch

[canuckgbp]

That puts bums in the seats. Key thing for guys like Shaffelburg is to have the play me or trade me mentality. Turning 23 in November. Soon you are out of the "prospect" range and need consistant game time. 

Thought Fraser was going down that same path but ended up at too low a level (imo). 

Several guys on TFC need to seek out regular game time at a good level. I know it is easier said than done but it does appear some of them are too comfortable. Good of Shaffelburg for making a move and contributing. 

I like more Canadian talent spread across more MLS teams then just being bunched up North of the border. 

[mpg_29]

Some of it is the MLS salary rules. You can spend big money....on a few players. Not across the entire roster.

[Kadenge]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

They spent big on the Downsview facility with little to show for it initially but it takes time to build a soccer culture. When other MLS teams want your castoffs such as Shaffelburg, Prso and Russell-Rowe it's a sign that the Academy is finally doing something useful. Being second in the East in Next Pro also suggests things are heading in the right direction in that context after less than stellar performances in the past in a USL context. Spending big on DPs and the Academy system isn't either/or. Doing both well is the key to being one of the dominant franchises in MLS terms.

The concern, as @TOcanadafanmentioned, is the mismanagement of the pipeline from Academy to 1st team. Bringing high end GTA talent into the Academy is like picking low hanging fruit... it's how you develop that talent and get them ready for 1st team. Almost all TFC young players look tactically naive & lack physical assertiveness (other than Ayo) and that's development. Even a slightly built player can use body positioning to disrupt, keep posession or induce a foul if you are surrounded by 2/3 players.  It's not a lack of skill. Other teams like NE, Philly and Dallas in prior years have young players that seem better prepared when they do play 1st team mins.

 

 

[Kadenge]

I think @narduchsaid it previously, TFC management are lazy. Bez made solid and cost effective signings to surround the DPs so it really was a team performance. Manning  should have been fired along with Curtis last season. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

...like I said the default setting of certain posters (a few posts up not immediately preceding) is clearly stuck at criticize TFC regardless of what they do. MLS rules allow teams to sign three players that are far too good for a regular MLS roster spot. That's simply how the league is structured and having the chance to play with that level of talent can do wonders for the younger players around them.

If Insigne and Bernardeschi had been around at the start of the season they would have reached the playoffs no problem. Next season they will be. There are mixed signals on whether they were ever in for Andrea Belotti but what could happen if they ever replaced Akinola or Jimenez in a starting 4-3-3 lineup with someone on those guy's level doesn't bear thinking about.

For years TFC were criticized on here for not playing their Academy prospects with plenty of justification last season when the players that were being selected instead were borderline useless in MLS terms. If you are going to lose do it with guys that can gain from the experience and help you down the road.

Now Curtis and Perez are gone and they are finally giving guys coming through from the academy a fair shake rather than viewing them as dead weight that needs to be carried to meet roster rules some people on here still want to criticize even though what has unfolded this season is exactly what is needed to build more CMNT roster depth.

37 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

The concern, as @TOcanadafanmentioned, is the mismanagement of the pipeline from Academy to 1st team. Bringing high end GTA talent into the Academy is like picking low hanging fruit... it's how you develop that talent and get them ready for 1st team...

Best thing that could have happened from a development standpoint of players like Jacob Shaffelburg would have been a CanPL affiliate with a mix of TFC prospects and older experienced players playing in games that really matter in a competitive sense as a stepping stone between the Academy and MLS. The TFC II reserve team was getting regularly rag dolled in the USL Championship by older more experienced teams and any USL D1 I ever watched after that didn't look up to much in terms of playing standards. Not sold on the idea that MLS Next Pro is the answer but we'll see what happens.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[narduch]

23 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

I think @narduchsaid it previously, TFC management are lazy. Bez made solid and cost effective signings to surround the DPs so it really was a team performance. Manning  should have been fired along with Curtis last season. 

Yup.

This summer window: 3 Italian free agents found searching Transfermarket and 3 Canadian MNT players added.

In the meantime the team has no depth.

[TOcanadafan]

16 minutes ago, narduch said:

Basically feels like playing a video game with a cheat code.

This summer window: 3 Italian free agents found searching Transfermarket and 3 Canadian MNT players added.

In the meantime the team has no depth.

The video game with a cheat code is a perfect analogy.  You do get the high of winning, but no deep down sense of accomplishment and the high fades quickly.  Plus you get resentful and negative very fast if things dip (like we saw the past few years). 

And even now, the fans are crying that we need to buy another striker, midfielder and goalie.  If there was an actually plan in place, they could at least round off the team with some academy grads, but that takes time and vision.   I'm not going to be naive that this isn't how it's done in other leagues if you're a big team, and how the bandwagon Toronto fan-base would prefer it, it's just not how I'd prefer it be done.  And it's valid poke at management to point out that it's pure money that's buying success and nothing to do with smarts or hard work.

[RS]

4 hours ago, TOcanadafan said:

After the loan move, Peter Galindo put out a tweet giving the opinion (and rightly so) that TFC mismanages their Academy to 1st team pipeline and presented a list of other franchises that do it better.  Many TFC supporters respond with a “at least we won a championship” chirp.  I replied by stating that TFC has outspent every other MLS team each year since 2014, some years almost double / triple most everyone else, so it’s rather disappointing that they only have one title and I get piled on as well.  
I find it ridiculous that some feel you can’t critique the management of the team you cheer for.  As a TFC and CMNT fan I’m actually very disappointed that they are once again going with the out-spend everyone else route, instead of trying to compete by building a successful / sustainable ‘develop from within and augment with a couple of from-outside signings’ model.

Galindo was right about the Philly/Dallas/Red Bulls of MLS getting more out of their respective academies than Toronto has up to this point, but he also put Vancouver and Montreal in that same category which (as I’ve pointed out a ton here and elsewhere over the years) is a weird “Mandela Effect” that doesn’t truly reflect reality.

None of the three Canadian teams have ever really effectively maximized their respective youth systems, and anyone thinking TFC is any worse than the others in this regard (especially this year) is a bit out to lunch IMO.

And yes, as others have pointed out, Toronto doesn’t need to rely on its academy as heavily as some other teams do, which is perfectly fine. That doesn’t mean they cannot do better though, and acknowledging that TFC’s given several prospects a fair shot this year isn’t “defending” the front office as much as it is simply stating the truth.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Persuading players like Insigne and Bernardeschi who are both still last 16 in the Champions League level talents that MLS is where they should play is no small feat even if it does revolve around a fistful of dollars. These guys aren't in washed up hasbeen mode yet like Eusebio was when he played in Toronto in the 70s and they are both clearly very much enjoying their soccer at the moment.

If a spate of injuries led to Doniel Henry or Lukas MacNaughton being on the pitch against Croatia and Belgium in Qatar training with these guys on a daily basis exposes them to the level of talent they would be facing. Having these guys plying their trade in Canada is a massive boost to Canadian soccer.

[narduch]

5 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Persuading players like Insigne and Bernardeschi who are both still last 16 in the Champions League level talents that MLS is where they should play is no small feat even if it does revolve around a fistful of dollars. These guys aren't in washed up hasbeen mode yet like Eusebio was when he played in Toronto in the 70s and they are both clearly very much enjoying their soccer at the moment.

If a spate of injuries led to Doniel Henry or Lukas MacNaughton being on the pitch against Croatia and Belgium in Qatar training with these guys on a daily basis exposes them to the level of talent they would be facing. Having these guys plying their trade in Canada is a massive boost to Canadian soccer.

Looks like you are missing the forest for the trees on this one.

[Mattd97]

4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

If a spate of injuries led to Doniel Henry or Lukas MacNaughton being on the pitch against Croatia and Belgium in Qatar training with these guys on a daily basis exposes them to the level of talent they would be facing. Having these guys plying their trade in Canada is a massive boost to Canadian soccer.

😬

[costarg]

23 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Best thing that could have happened from a development standpoint of players like Jacob Shaffelburg would have been a CanPL affiliate with a mix of TFC prospects and older experienced players playing in games that really matter in a competitive sense as a stepping stone between the Academy and MLS. 

No, dude, you're wrong!  Wake up man. you're not listening, you're just spewing TFC PR crap.  Stop and read this.....

Shaff is almost 23, he should not have been in CPL this year or even last year.  He needed to be developed at 17-19.  Do you really need to see the list of guys TFC wasted on the sidelines? 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Joel Waterman was around 23 years old when he played for the Cavalry in CanPL in 2019. Didn't seem to do his career any harm. I have outlined how the problem there has been on development has been effectively bridging the gap between U-18 Academy stuff and the MLS first team and expressed the opinion that TFC II wasn't doing a good job for them in a USL context and that I'm not convinced Next Pro is the answer either. How is that "TFC PR crap"?

[narduch]

19 minutes ago, costarg said:

No, dude, you're wrong!  Wake up man. you're not listening, you're just spewing TFC PR crap.  Stop and read this.....

Shaff is almost 23, he should not have been in CPL this year or even last year.  He needed to be developed at 17-19.  Do you really need to see the list of guys TFC wasted on the sidelines? 

He already proved last year that he is good enough for MLS. 

And he is proving it again at Nashville now.

So ya, a move to CPL would be totally pointless for him.

[BearcatSA]

On 8/28/2022 at 6:30 AM, Gian-Luca said:

It’s a shame they didn’t let Jacob take the PK he earned as Dax McCarty’s strike was woeful. Since it was an inconsequential pk (end of the game, team already up 3-0 against 10 men), you would think they would let the PK earner or maybe a guy on a hat trick take it

I would have let Zimmerman's back up get a chance for his hat trick.

[costarg]

6 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Joel Waterman was around 23 years old when he played for the Cavalry in CanPL in 2019. Didn't seem to do his career any harm. I have outlined how the problem there has been on development has been effectively bridging the gap between U-18 Academy stuff and the MLS first team and expressed the opinion that TFC II wasn't doing a good job for them in a USL context and that I'm not convinced Next Pro is the answer either. How is that "TFC PR crap"?

You're just digging yourself in deeper dude and loosing more and more credibility each post.  EVERYONE - except you it seems - knows most CB's (aside from true outliers/stars) develop later than any and every other position. 

It's ok (and necessary to prove you're not insane) to admit TFC has screwed and wasted a generation of talent that passed through their system.

And no, it's not the price to pay for winning.  They only won one season, but have been killing careers for years.  Freakin Man U was playing youngsters during their ridiculously long successful run.  And, that is just one example, before you start with your "ya but but but".  Vanney was just lucky to have a roster worth triple his nearest competitor.

 

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

I guess Giuseppe Bergomi didn't get the memo on defenders developing later. I literally just outlined how TFC haven't been doing a good job on developing players in this latest post. In an earlier one I made the analogy of homegrown players being at times treated as dead weight prior to this season only kept around to meet roster regulations. You are not responding to what I am actually writing