Samuel Piette

[Norrin Radd]

7 hours ago, Craig11rm said:

I was actually thinking about the same thing after I posted. IMO He definitely grew in to that role even though it was obvious that DM is his natural position. 

I always thought that employing players in a different position than one they are accustomed to would be good way to help them expand their skill set and improve in areas where they are lacking.

There's frequently negative reactions on here when young players are used in unfamiliar roles such as Marshall-Rutty this year or Corbeanu the first half of last season. I just see it as an opportunity for them to develop into more complete players.

It's rare for a player in his mid twenties such a Piette to get such an opportunity on the first team. I'm glad he made the most of it. Even it that was the only positive from Henry's tenure in Montreal it's still a positive for the CMNT.

[archer21]

11 hours ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

Herdman?  Dealing with the frailties of modern athletes takes a different kind of person now.

This. Coaching is different now from how it was in the past. I don’t see many old school jerk coaches being successful in the future. The younger generation doesn’t take to that coaching style anymore. 

[Joe MacCarthy]

Why coaching is different now, you have things like appointing a cultural and wellness manager

[jonovision]

6 hours ago, archer21 said:

This. Coaching is different now from how it was in the past. I don’t see many old school jerk coaches being successful in the future. The younger generation doesn’t take to that coaching style anymore. 

I doubt that style worked particularly well with previous generations either, it's just that there weren't many other options. I think treating players as humans with feelings is an advance in coaching, just like progress in training, nutrition, tactics, analytics, etc.

[The Beaver 2.0]

14 minutes ago, jonovision said:

I doubt that style worked particularly well with previous generations either, it's just that there weren't many other options. I think treating players as humans with feelings is an advance in coaching, just like progress in training, nutrition, tactics, analytics, etc.

We're seeing the same, finally, across all industries and professions. A bit of a head scratcher as to why it has taken so freaking long to figure out that if you treat your employees well they tend to work harder, and better, for you. 

[SpursFlu]

40 minutes ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

We're seeing the same, finally, across all industries and professions. A bit of a head scratcher as to why it has taken so freaking long to figure out that if you treat your employees well they tend to work harder, and better, for you. 

Are you sure? Productivity is way down in most industries and employees are making themselves irrelevant. Maybe that's the plan and the pied pipers are leading people right off the cliff?

As far as coaches are concerned. The coach who got the most out of me would always scream at me and put me down. I ran in to his son recently and he told me his dad always knew if I was having an off day he could get on my case, piss me off and I would take it out on the other team in an effort to shove it up his ass. When he would scream at me from the sidelines he would be laughing with the subs saying watch this. I guess it comes down to personalities and I find most young people today were coddled and don't deal with adversity well because they were raised by bulldozer parents who were upset because their parents didn't hug them enough so they over compensated by over protecting their children. So yah I guess you have to be really nice to players now but unfortunately the evidence shows you don't get much loyalty or increased performance in return you just avoid conflict and drama

Every generation is a reaction to the previous generation so I think things will swing back the other ways as most parents nowadays have recognized the faults of parents from just say the past 20 years and there is an effort to raise children in a way that will leave them a little more thicked skinned and have the ability to deal with adversity and confrontation in a much more positive way

Edited August 22, 2022 by SpursFlu

[Joe MacCarthy]

6 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

Are you sure? Productivity is way down in most industries and employees are making themselves irrelevant. Maybe that's the plan and the pied pipers are leading people right off the cliff?

What I found was the more employees received the less grateful they were and more entitled they became. We've essentially created our own monster and you are now starting to see, however small, some companies starting to push back ie Netflix, Starbucks.

[Joe MacCarthy]

3 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

 I guess it comes down to personalities and I find most young people today were coddled and don't deal with adversity well because they were raised by bulldozer parents who were upset because their parents didn't hug them enough so they over compensated by over protecting their children. So yah I guess you have to be really nice to players now but unfortunately the evidence shows you don't get much loyalty or increased performance in return you just avoid conflict and drama

A really good expert on this subject is NYU's Dr Jonathan Haidt.  He tells the hows and whys, how and when it started, why it continues etc.  He became well known for The Atlantic column and later book The Coddling of the American Mind (How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure)

Edited August 22, 2022 by Joe MacCarthy
Name spelling

[Macksam]

5 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

Are you sure? Productivity is way down in most industries and employees are making themselves irrelevant. Maybe that's the plan and the pied pipers are leading people right off the cliff?

As far as coaches are concerned. The coach who got the most out of me would always scream at me and put me down. I ran in to his son recently and he told me his dad always knew if I was having an off day he could get on my case, piss me off and I would take it out on the other team in an effort to shove it up his ass. When he would scream at me from the sidelines he would be laughing with the subs saying watch this. I guess it comes down to personalities and I find most young people today were coddled and don't deal with adversity well because they were raised by bulldozer parents who were upset because their parents didn't hug them enough so they over compensated by over protecting their children. So yah I guess you have to be really nice to players now but unfortunately the evidence shows you don't get much loyalty or increased performance in return you just avoid conflict and drama

Every generation is a reaction to the previous generation so I think things will swing back the other ways as most parents nowadays have recognized the faults of parents from just say the past 20 years and there is an effort to raise children in a way that will leave them a little more thicked skinned and have the ability to deal with adversity and confrontation in a much more positive way

 

5 hours ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

A really good expert on this subject is NYUs Dr Jonathan Heidt.  He tells the hows and whys, how and when it started, why it continues etc.  He became well known for the book The Coddling of the American Mind (How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure)

Very interesting outlooks.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Macksam

[Bdog]

Seems like a good time to post this video from Leon Edwards' corner between rounds during his fight on Saturday, the guy with the awesome British accent motivated him the right way.

I do have to disagree with the idea of how Mike Babcock-esque screaming and demeaning players benefits anyone though. If anyone ever tried to yell at me to "get more out of me" I'd just consider them to be an asshole who's disrespecting me, I assume most bosses who do that are just power tripping douchebags. My first job after high school had so many people quit because our manager was a dick to everyone new, he was finally nice to me after half a year but at that point I still had enough of his shit and left soon after. It didn't motivate me when he was being a dick, it just made it more miserable to work there. I'm one of the hardest workers at my current job simply because it's one of my character traits, and my co-workers all get along together well which actually makes it a positive environment.

I will say I don't like entitled parents who think their kids are perfect and never discipline them because they think their little angel can't do any wrong. Also it seems like letting kids play outside unsupervised is rarely a thing anymore because a lot of parents are paranoid their kids are going to get kidnapped or something, I hope I never bubble wrap my future kids like that. There has to be a good balance I guess, and I think a lot of people I know my age and a few years older (born early-mid 90s) turned out ok.

 

[El Hombre]

8 hours ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

We're seeing the same, finally, across all industries and professions. A bit of a head scratcher as to why it has taken so freaking long to figure out that if you treat your employees well they tend to work harder, and better, for you. 

This is definitely my experience.  A happy employee does a better job than an angry employee.  Always.  I've found this in both work environments and coaching environments.

The biggest mistake a manager/boss can make is think that they are more important than the people doing the actual work.

[Obinna]

I think different people respond to different types of coaching. In my view there is nothing wrong with yelling at players to get your message across if it's done in the right way. That's the key.

I won't say who but I had one coach who was not a yeller, he was quiet yet somewhat stern, or maybe it was just unemotional, hard to describe. I always felt unsure of where I stood with him, and he just gave me the vibe he would rather be elsewhere. He was a university coach who held the position for many years, so he must of wanted to be there despite my impression. And he was nice enough to me and everyone else, but I never ever felt like playing for him, and I never felt any connection to him whatsoever. Of all the coaches I had he was the only one like that, and it is hard to put a finger what exactly put me off. The other guys seemingly had no problem with him, so maybe it was just me.

By contrast I had a couple coaches who would chew us out if the standard wasn't high enough, and I always responded to that very well. I always wanted to show my best for those kind of coaches who gave a shit. One coach in particular (U17 level) made one of my teammates cry with his harsh evaluation of his performance, but yet he was my favrouite coach. Nobody recieved great feedback on that particular occassion, but I took the feedback contructively and my teammate was obviously hurt by it, but such is life I guess.

I think it just comes down to the relationship you have with the coach and your personality as well as his (or hers). I have never played for a coach who just yelled because he was dickhead or singled players out for personal reasons, but I assume that is a no-no in a black and white way. Everything else is perhaps a shade of grey?

Edited August 23, 2022 by Obinna

[An Observer]

Being someone who has been a manager for many years, there are many different challenges.  Sure, a happy employee is better than an angry employee but its also true that different people are motivated by different things.  Some people need an arm around their shoulder and constant positive reinforcement; others don’t respond to that and occasionally need a kick in the ass.  And there are definitely cultural, gender and age stereotypes, etc. that have a lot of truth in them but you still need to be careful there as they don’t apply to everyone.  The toughest thing as a manager is getting the balance right and treating everyone fairly (but not the same).  I definitely agree that yelling at people doesn’t work especially in the longterm with the vast majority of people (young and old); but also being overly sensitive to everyone’s feelings no matter how absurd (and some people have some very absurd and crazy views) is terrible for an organisation.

I have always found that being clear and transparent with your communication, listening to people and I mean really listening, showing your own vulnerability as a manger but then when all is said and done, making a decision whether people agree or not is the best way forward.  If people feel they have been heard, they generally accept your decision or policy even if they don’t like it.  

[Free kick]

18 hours ago, An Observer said:

I have always found that being clear and transparent with your communication, listening to people and I mean really listening, showing your own vulnerability as a manger but then when all is said and done, making a decision whether people agree or not is the best way forward.  If people feel they have been heard, they generally accept your decision or policy even if they don’t like it.  

100% here.   If you are transparent, you will gain respect, if you are not , you wont.   Another that I found really helps in managing, is if you are an individual who has risen through the ranks.  People will respect that because they know that you will understand their issues and that that you are able to resolve issues.  People will open up to you.   If you are transplanted manager brought in from outside and you don't know the organizational culture, organizational processes and assets and you are less likely to have answers.  Therefore people wont escalate issue to you and problems will fester.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Free kick

[GasPed]

12 hours ago, An Observer said:

Being someone who has been a manager for many years, there are many different challenges.  Sure, a happy employee is better than an angry employee but its also true that different people are motivated by different things.  Some people need an arm around their shoulder and constant positive reinforcement; others don’t respond to that and occasionally need a kick in the ass.  And there are definitely cultural, gender and age stereotypes, etc. that have a lot of truth in them but you still need to be careful there as they don’t apply to everyone.  The toughest thing as a manager is getting the balance right and treating everyone fairly (but not the same).  I definitely agree that yelling at people doesn’t work especially in the longterm with the vast majority of people (young and old); but also being overly sensitive to everyone’s feelings no matter how absurd (and some people have some very absurd and crazy views) is terrible for an organisation.

I have always found that being clear and transparent with your communication, listening to people and I mean really listening, showing your own vulnerability as a manger but then when all is said and done, making a decision whether people agree or not is the best way forward.  If people feel they have been heard, they generally accept your decision or policy even if they don’t like it.  

Rec'd - as a fellow long-time people manager, I completely agree.  Having said that, I will also say that more recently I've noticed my effectiveness as a manager seems to be waning:

• My ability to motivate people with "Atta boy/girl" or "This is why you should do this - so go for it" doesn't work with the same frequency.  There are some people (particularly younger folks) who almost don't care what I say - they just do what they do when they want to do it.  They seem un-willing/able to take initiative or go the extra mile.   Even the threat of dismissal doesn't seem to boost their performance much, or at least not for long.
• Further to that, I used to explain my reasoning to my staff so they clearly understood decisions, and even if they didn't like them, they would respect and abide by them.  I still do the explaining part, but I find people don't care for my explanations nearly as much - all they care about is how the decision affects them, and if it's in any way negative, they make a large disruptive fuss.  There's no ability/willingness to look at the bigger picture, no negotiation/compromise, no appreciation for the needs/issues of others - it seems to be all about "what's in it for me".

Of course not all staff are like this, and perhaps this is just a trend from my personal experience, not a global one.  (In fact, maybe it's just me - i.e. I'm getting old and I'm not as good at my job anymore.)  But my anecdotal experience is that being a manager these days is more difficult than it used to be, and the results seem to be frequently underwhelming.  I guess it's time to retire?

[costarg]

35 minutes ago, GasPed said:

Rec'd - as a fellow long-time people manager, I completely agree.  Having said that, I will also say that more recently I've noticed my effectiveness as a manager seems to be waning:

• My ability to motivate people with "Atta boy/girl" or "This is why you should do this - so go for it" doesn't work with the same frequency.  There are some people (particularly younger folks) who almost don't care what I say - they just do what they do when they want to do it.  They seem un-willing/able to take initiative or go the extra mile.   Even the threat of dismissal doesn't seem to boost their performance much, or at least not for long.
• Further to that, I used to explain my reasoning to my staff so they clearly understood decisions, and even if they didn't like them, they would respect and abide by them.  I still do the explaining part, but I find people don't care for my explanations nearly as much - all they care about is how the decision affects them, and if it's in any way negative, they make a large disruptive fuss.  There's no ability/willingness to look at the bigger picture, no negotiation/compromise, no appreciation for the needs/issues of others - it seems to be all about "what's in it for me".

Of course not all staff are like this, and perhaps this is just a trend from my personal experience, not a global one.  (In fact, maybe it's just me - i.e. I'm getting old and I'm not as good at my job anymore.)  But my anecdotal experience is that being a manager these days is more difficult than it used to be, and the results seem to be frequently underwhelming.  I guess it's time to retire?

OK, I'll take one for the team and say it.... Millennials.  They're just lost and can't seem to fit into any kind of structure anywhere.  Can't blame them though, they've been lied to all their lives by their parents and have a room full of participation medals and trophies.  They must be great right?  Yet no one seems to understand that once the graduated from high school.

Thank you!  I need to let that out every once in a while, HR won't even let us say the word Millennial.  

[RS]

Some millenials are in their 40s. 

"Young people" nowadays are Gen Z.

[Joe MacCarthy]

1 hour ago, GasPed said:

But my anecdotal experience is that being a manager these days is more difficult than it used to be, and the results seem to be frequently underwhelming.  I guess it's time to retire?

In the last five years I saw things I never thought I would see in the workplace such as people blatantly lying to try and take somebody out.  My advise to you would be, if you can afford it, get out before somebody tries to take you out.  Guilty or not your reputation won't be restored, people believe the worst.

Companies are being cowed by less than 20% of the workplace.  The latest scam is called quiet quitting, it is going to take a long time before things come back into balance, my company branch lost all five of its top people before age 60.  They just don't want to manage in this environment anymore and even though they had always had the backing of the company they couldn't trust that they would going forward.  Let me tell you the company was pissed they lost all their braintrust and experience in about three months but as I said they created the monster by excessive enabling.

[The Real Marc]

Kids these days. Show them some respect and kindness and they take it to heart and start to develop a sense of self-worth. Let's not even get started on girlfriends. Ah the good old days.

[SpursFlu]

There is nothing that makes me more unhappy then when my company tries to make me happy. Hey everyone let's stop working play trivia and give away Starbucks gift cards. Such and such brought ethnic food from where she is from! That's typically when I start looking at the window and think to myself... if I jump from here is there a chance I won't die?

[Joe MacCarthy]

1 minute ago, SpursFlu said:

There is nothing that makes me more unhappy then when my company tries to make me happy. Hey everyone let's stop working play trivia and give away Starbucks gift cards. Such and such brought ethnic food from where she is from! That's typically when I start looking at the window and think to myself... if I jump from here is there a chance I won't die?

My example of that (and I don't want to get too specific) was my company gave out a $300 piece of clothing  to all the employees.  Like my brother's wife who bought him a pink dress shirt (because it was on sale) that he would never wear, this piece of clothing, no one would wear.  It became an object of derision.  Now I was more gracious than most and at least appreciated the gesture, I had to ask myself why they didn't do a bit more due diligence to see if the employees actually wanted something like this.  Everyone I talked to would have preferred the $300 bucks.

I worked for another company that had a gym onsite, a crying room, pool table, a large cake every month (birthday for everybody) and supposed massages.  Never saw any of it.  If I was able to manage it, I would try to get in 10 minutes on the treadmill during a break if the day was stressful.  Have no idea about the massages   If you're actually working, you won't have time for that stuff.

[Unnamed Trialist]

I could chirp in as a professor, but the point: business or educational models aren't applicable to elite performance. They just stretch concepts, like motivation or performance, to the point of being unrecognizable. 

It's its own category, elite sport. I mark, comment, sometimes hard, students complain. I try to motivate, I see that one class dynamic is different from another. I know profs who agratiate themselves to the students, get good ratings; others who are the hardest markers in their department and get the highest ratings. Yes, I'm trying to train people to perform well, think with high standards and especially not be enslaved by the system. 

But I don't think any of thst is really applicable to coaching sport. Not fundamentally. 

[kacbru]

How about that cross field pas by Piettte?

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, kacbru said:

How about that cross field pas by Piettte?

Seems like he was motivated by CF Montreal management!

[saintjoes]

8 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

But I don't think any of thst is really applicable to coaching sport. Not fundamentally.

I actually think it is all applicable. Note the striking similarities in the below "high performance environment" criterias, one work and one CANMNT:

1. https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/basics/workplace-dynamics 

2. https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/john-herdman-interview-canada-world-cup/
 

Trust, security, team, purpose..