Lucas Cavallini

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

15 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I have already chimed in so won’t belabour it but the idea that it wasn’t intentional seems absolutely implausible to me.  Like no possible way I could believe that he didn’t know what he was doing.  

The ball was ahead, the player was off to the side, he choose to keep running that way.

He had enough awareness to jump and he took a look at the player on the ground before he did.

Would love to defend him but...  

[kacbru]

There is a lot of space between "it was accidental" and "he tried to curb stomp his head." 

[El Diego]

31 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I have already chimed in so won’t belabour it but the idea that it wasn’t intentional seems absolutely implausible to me.  Like no possible way I could believe that he didn’t know what he was doing.  

Mental gymnastics

[CanadaFan123]

3 hours ago, frmr said:

What facts would you be referring to?

The only facts we have - the video.

Most people seem content to base their opinion on that, so show me intent in that video. It’s impossible. This is just based on people not liking Cavallini and his history of yellows. Fact is he doesn’t have a history of psychopathic acts.

[frmr]

5 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

The only facts we have - the video.

Most people seem content to base their opinion on that, so show me intent in that video. It’s impossible. This is just based on people not liking Cavallini and his history of yellows. Fact is he doesn’t have a history of psychopathic acts.

I still don't understand what you're asking me to do. Counter the facts in the video? He stepped on a guy's head. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be countering. You can't prove intent, and you can't prove lack of intent. From the video, it personally looks pretty clear to me that he could have avoided him, but he didn't. That's just my opinion and it's shared by most as far as I can tell, including the people that matter, who gave him an additional three game ban.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

I have already chimed in so won’t belabour it but the idea that it wasn’t intentional seems absolutely implausible to me.  Like no possible way I could believe that he didn’t know what he was doing.  

Then he intentionally barely touched the guy on the ground and intentionally avoided hurting him-- I agree.

If you want to claim intentionality, don't do it halfways. The rival was unscathed: intentionally.

By the way, the first foul is an intentional attempt at a shoulder barge, which Cavallini does a lot to get in front of a rival in a divided play. It is a proper way to play football. It wasn't malicious, because otherwise it could have and would have been more than a shoulder: it was just executed poorly. 

Then the guy goes down soft, if you have seen the video and want to cite what you see, you can't deny he goes down soft and exagerrates the contact. 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

4 minutes ago, frmr said:

I still don't understand what you're asking me to do. Counter the facts in the video? He stepped on a guy's head. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be countering. You can't prove intent, and you can't prove lack of intent. From the video, it personally looks pretty clear to me that he could have avoided him, but he didn't. That's just my opinion and it's shared by most as far as I can tell, including the people that matter, who gave him an additional three game ban.

I think you can prove intent.  He takes a look at the guy on the ground and jumps in his direction.  He may not have intended to injury him but he his intent was enought to fufill this  

"Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball"

[dyslexic nam]

32 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

The only facts we have - the video.

Most people seem content to base their opinion on that, so show me intent in that video. It’s impossible. This is just based on people not liking Cavallini and his history of yellows. Fact is he doesn’t have a history of psychopathic acts.

First off, I like Cav.  Always have.  Was very excited when he committed to Canada.  

Secondly, he may not have a history of “psychopathic acts” (which is a very hyperbolic bar to set in this discussion) but he does have a history of aggressive, reckless challenges that result in cards a fair amount of the time.  Anyone who has followed his career knows he plays with the sort of edge that gets punished fairly regularly.

Lastly, you can never determine intent with certainty from the video, but that doesn’t mean you can’t speculate with a fair degree of confidence.  And in this case, the facts lead me to very confidently conclude that he acted with intent.  Not intent to injure as UT points out, but the intent to do exactly what he did.   

23 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Then he intentionally barely touched the guy on the ground and intentionally avoided hurting him-- I agree.

If you want to claim intentionality, don't do it halfways. The rival was unscathed: intentionally.

By the way, the first foul is an intentional attempt at a shoulder barge, which Cavallini does a lot to get in front of a rival in a divided play. It is a proper way to play football. It wasn't malicious, because otherwise it could have and would have been more than a shoulder: it was just executed poorly. 

Then the guy goes down soft, if you have seen the video and want to cite what you see, you can't deny he goes down soft and exagerrates the contact. 

I agree that there was an initial foul that was consistent with Cav fighting hard for the ball.   And I agree that the guy went down soft and embellished the foul like a twat.  But none of that changes what happened next.  As others have pointed out, the fact that Cav gingerly steps on his head with virtually no weight reinforces the idea that it was intentional.  It’s not like he did everything he could to avoid the event and the light step on his head was the very best he could do - anyone who believes that is viewing the sequence with some pretty strongly tinted rose colored glasses.  He didn’t want to hurt the guy - that much is obvious.  But he did want to be give a little warning shot to a guy who was being a dick trying to get Cav booked.  And unfortunately the act he committed warrants the kind of suspension that was handed down.  You just can’t go around stepping on people’s heads when they are down, no matter how carefully and gingerly you do it.  

Fuck, I was done discussing this.  
 

[footballfreak]

If nothing else, this topic has been instructive as to where the steady supply of Sunday league psychopaths come from. 

“Can’t step on someone’s head anymore? Game’s gone.”

[costarg]

We need a CANMNT game soon.  We're getting edgy and forgetting that we're all on the same team.

 

......well except for the yay or nay Arfield subject.  There is a huge divide there. 

[dyslexic nam]

4 minutes ago, costarg said:

We need a CANMNT game soon.  We're getting edgy and forgetting that we're all on the same team.

 

......well except for the yay or nay Arfield subject.  There is a huge divide there. 

It’s funny how often this happens.  In the long spaces between windows I think you chart the increase in bitchy posts (and I am sure I am just as guilty as others).  

[GasPed]

2 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I have already chimed in so won’t belabour it but the idea that it wasn’t intentional seems absolutely implausible to me.  Like no possible way I could believe that he didn’t know what he was doing.  

Maybe?  I feel if he actually intended to hurt the guy, he would be looking down at him as he jumps over him, watching his foot tread on the guy's head and maybe giving it a little extra push.  But he never looks down at the guy, appears to be be trying to jump over him, and as his foot clips him he lifts it up rather than pushes down.  Put it this way, I think it was intentional that he barged the guy to the ground and ran over him, but I don't think he intended to stomp on his head.  Of course, only Cav knows what he intended...  

[frmr]

I mean, Cav himself came out with an apology that said he let his emotions get the better of him, so that's about as close to an admission of intent as there is. People who are trying to claim it was unintentional are grasping at straws.

[dyslexic nam]

19 minutes ago, GasPed said:

Maybe?  I feel if he actually intended to hurt the guy, he would be looking down at him as he jumps over him, watching his foot tread on the guy's head and maybe giving it a little extra push.  But he never looks down at the guy, appears to be be trying to jump over him, and as his foot clips him he lifts it up rather than pushes down.  Put it this way, I think it was intentional that he barged the guy to the ground and ran over him, but I don't think he intended to stomp on his head.  Of course, only Cav knows what he intended...  

To be clear, no one (or at least almost no one) is claiming that he was trying to hurt the guy and just failed.  Most people (me included) are arguing the opposite - that it was intentional and that he quite deliberately stepped gently on his head.   

[Obinna]

There is a difference between intentionally stepping on the player, which clearly was the case, and intentionally trying to hurt him, which certainly wasn't the case. I don't think anyone here believes Cav was out to cause the player injury. I think he would have stepped a lot harder if that were the case lol

[Corazon]

1 hour ago, GasPed said:

Maybe?  I feel if he actually intended to hurt the guy, he would be looking down at him as he jumps over him, watching his foot tread on the guy's head and maybe giving it a little extra push.  But he never looks down at the guy, appears to be be trying to jump over him, and as his foot clips him he lifts it up rather than pushes down.  Put it this way, I think it was intentional that he barged the guy to the ground and ran over him, but I don't think he intended to stomp on his head.  Of course, only Cav knows what he intended...  

Anyone that truly has no idea that they are about to step on someone’s head cannot retract a foot like that in mid air, that quickly.  That’s just how it is.  Absolutely Cavallini was not trying to cause injury but it was 100% planned. 

If Cavallini truly had no idea what he was doing, the damage/injury would have been a lot worse.

Again, moment of chaos for Cavallini.  But I haven’t seen enough from any other #9 for Canada to displace him for Qatar.

[LeoH037]

I don't need to go to a circus when this thread exists... what with all the mental gymnastics and over abundance of 🤡s attempting to defend (and justify?) a player stepping on another player's head. 

[JAVIERF]

Cavallini let his surname got The better of him.  Horse means  Not a donkey like That old 9 you had in Plymouth d'autre fois.  Mobilio was?  Had an italian last name. A Tony Cascarino type of 9

[CanadaFan123]

12 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

To be clear, no one (or at least almost no one) is claiming that he was trying to hurt the guy and just failed.  Most people (me included) are arguing the opposite - that it was intentional and that he quite deliberately stepped gently on his head.   

This would seem a lot more plausible from a mentality standpoint, but less plausible from a technical/physical standpoint. I guess we’ll never know. 
 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

The problem with these last few pages is that so few supposed fans realise that this player can be immensely useful for Canada in Qatar, and going forward. Because the same way he can take card, he also can play clean to the edge and provoke rivals into fouling him, drawing free kicks, and also forcing them into cards.

He gets under rivals' skins, fact is fact. He knows how to hold up in a corner, draw fouls deep, distract CBs, I want him any day for the last 16 minutes if we are beating or drawing with any rival at Qatar and need to hold on for dear life. A hundred times over Ugbo, for example, who is merely a finisher if that and inocuous in the flow of play. David is soft on the field, Larin has a bit more grit, Davies has a bit of that nasty edge when he wants, Laryea is more a shit disturber verbally than in play but also gets under rivals' skins (that spit he drew  in qualifying, that is a opposing red in Qatar). Staq can put in a foot, Osorio can jaw, we have a mostly gritty team and that is going to benefit us if we can manage it without it hurting us.

It's assinine that Canadians of all people don't understand that sort of role on a sports team. The moralising and character damnation from a hockey nation is a bit pathetic.

Not to mention he can score, and create fairly decently.

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Macksam]

18 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I think you can prove intent.  He takes a look at the guy on the ground and jumps in his direction.  He may not have intended to injury him but he his intent was enought to fufill this  

"Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball"

Depends on which definition of violence is used or what violent conduct entails. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Macksam

[TOcanadafan]

I don’t think this is the major debate of the last page or so, but I’ll say it one more time that you gotta bring Cav to Qatar… always good to have warrior types in the squad.

I also think it’s important for Herdman to weigh Cav’s propensity to get cards and act reckless if he’s thinking about bringing him into the game.  Every sub decision has a risk / reward ‘calculation’ involved, so I don’t see it all that different.

This particular incident, intentional or not, psychotic or not - he’s a pro athlete who shares the trait that most live on the edge, and are always ‘cheating’ or testing boundaries to get an edge.  And  maybe there was something personal in it… but to this you definitely say Cav was stupid to get back at the opponent  in plain site.  It is what it is, he (and indirectly his team) got punished, it’s over.  Shit happens in pro sports.
I also find the  ‘intentional vs not’ argument a bit over blown… to say most pro athletes won’t do anything to win is naive… if they know you have a sore ankle, you bet they’re gonna go extra hard on you in every tackle.  And all the shit that goes on during set-piece scrums… I think we give too much morality to players… in the heat of the battle, if they know you are weak or injured, they’ll exploit this.

 

 

 

[JAVIERF]

Cavallini way better than anyone up front.  I would play all of them together,  larin David davids cavallini 

[JAVIERF]

Buchanan Eustaquio hutchinson 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, Macksam said:

Depends on which definition of violence is used or what violent conduct entails. 

The quote was FIFA's definition.