Herdman new head coach

[Cheeta]

On 10/8/2021 at 7:43 PM, Sal333 said:

Or he hired someone on his staff who does.

100%

Have to give him that.  And it's an ace talent to have that sort of insight.   A real ace talent.  

[Kadenge]

did anyone see Eric Tenllado  (assistant coach) v Mexico?

[The Real Marc]

Based on results? Right now, Berhalter. Based on pedigree, Martino no contest. Comparing managers at this level is goofy and nothing but an exercise in emotional fortification.

[frmr]

8 minutes ago, The Real Marc said:

Based on results? Right now, Berhalter. Based on pedigree, Martino no contest. Comparing managers at this level is goofy and nothing but an exercise in emotional fortification.

Berhalter who prior to the Honduras game was one foot out the door and 90% of the American fans and media were calling for his head? Gee we sure sure seem to be using two different metrics to measure managers here.

And comparing managers at this level (national, I assume?) is goofy? Uhh, okay, I guess. Thanks for the heads up.

[gator]

6 minutes ago, frmr said:

Berhalter who prior to the Honduras game was one foot out the door and 90% of the American fans and media were calling for his head? Gee we sure sure seem to be using two different metrics to measure managers here.

And comparing managers at this level (national, I assume?) is goofy? Uhh, okay, I guess. Thanks for the heads up.

That shows you how quickly things can change in these competitions, the book hasn't been written on any of these managers yet, let's see where we end up before calling Herdman the best in Concacaf! Debate about coaches or mangers is very polarizing in all sports, it's just opinions, a win tonight will certainly be another feather in the cap for Mr Herdman!

[Unnamed Trialist]

22 hours ago, Kadenge said:

did anyone see Eric Tenllado  (assistant coach) v Mexico?

Have you all noticed that for the WC qualifying, Herdman is not visibly consulting with his assistants, at least not standing? During the GC they seemed to be all bunched, chatting and showing that team spirit, and for the qualifiers, he is alone on the touch line and in the technical area designated. 

Now I am sure he is consulting on the bench, at the half, through whoever is prepping the guys warming up. 

Perhaps we are dealing with stricter rules, maybe FIFA dictated, regarding assistants standing in the technical areas?

[frmr]

37 minutes ago, gator said:

That shows you how quickly things can change in these competitions, the book hasn't been written on any of these managers yet, let's see where we end up before calling Herdman the best in Concacaf! Debate about coaches or mangers is very polarizing in all sports, it's just opinions, a win tonight will certainly be another feather in the cap for Mr Herdman!

Yes of course, I agree that it's all opinion and basically pointless. I'm subtly trying to make a point in this thread though, and hopefully for some of our more discerning readers, it's not lost. Take our most recent contestant, The Real Marc: in his second last post he stated that two results do not make Herdman the best manager in Concacaf. When I asked him who was the best manager in Concacaf, he said that based on results, Berhalter. I pointed out that prior to the Honduras game, basically everyone was saying he should be fired, including American fans, the American sports media, and even fans from other countries (aside from those who wanted him to stay to continue driving the USMNT into the ground). Then, after what was admittedly a great result in Honduras, and a very expected win against the bottom team in the group, The Real Marc called him the best manager in Concacaf based on results. So in the span of two posts, The Real Marc said that Herdman could not possibly considered the best manager off of two (great) results, having started not from the brink of getting fired, but from already a pretty good position, result-wise, and yet Berhalter went from the brink of getting fired to being the best Concacaf manager in his eyes, off of, that's right: two results.

This is my point, and this is why I've started this new meme for the thread of "intellectually inferior". Because that logic is a fucking joke. Literally and seriously. And he's not the only one. This thread is littered with embarrassing examples of pseudo-logic where people are moving the goal-posts, exercising mental gymnastics and performing otherwise child-like levels of rational thought on the topic of our manager.

It amuses me to see people exposing themselves like this and that's why I continue to bump this thread and prod at people to see what new and exciting ways people can exhibit how illogical and irrational they can be to explain their positions.

[Bison44]

Well if you are basing who is a good coach by the complete trash on social media then that is a perfect example of inferior intelligence.  You go anywhere, with anyone and there is chorus of negativity about everything, and usually from a very vocal minority.  ESPN FC hot takes about firing managers etc are practically worthless.  In the long run even the results only tell part of the story because of all the moving parts.  For my own part, with the increase in talent of our CDN squad the last 3-4 years...this is the results they should be getting and although I give credit to Herdman for his contribution he has landed in a golden time for CDN soccer.  So now lets just see how far and how much he can get out of these exceptional young players that previous mangers didnt have.  

[lamptern]

4 hours ago, frmr said:

Berhalter who prior to the Honduras game was one foot out the door and 90% of the American fans and media were calling for his head? Gee we sure sure seem to be using two different metrics to measure managers here.

And comparing managers at this level (national, I assume?) is goofy? Uhh, okay, I guess. Thanks for the heads up.

To be more precise, Berhalter has only one heel in the door and 99% of the American fans and media were calling for his head as of 45th minutes in Honduras game. 

Heck, His USMNT career was saved in next 45 minutes. 

It's not miracle, it's called football. Result is KING.

Edited October 10, 2021 by lamptern

[frmr]

2 hours ago, lamptern said:

To be more precise, Berhalter has only one heel in the door and 99% of the American fans and media were calling for his head as of 45th minutes in Honduras game. 

Heck, His USMNT career was saved in next 45 minutes. 

It's not miracle, it's called football. Result is KING.

Unless you're John Herdman apparently.

[gator]

7 hours ago, lamptern said:

To be more precise, Berhalter has only one heel in the door and 99% of the American fans and media were calling for his head as of 45th minutes in Honduras game. 

Heck, His USMNT career was saved in next 45 minutes. 

It's not miracle, it's called football. Result is KING.

I wonder how they are feeling now?😀 That's the thing, many opinions will change from one match to the next based on the emotion from the most recent result!

[lamptern]

4 hours ago, frmr said:

Unless you're John Herdman apparently.

2 points average at home and 1 point average away will make us to Qatar. He achived so far. 

[lamptern]

3 minutes ago, gator said:

I wonder how they are feeling now?😀 That's the thing, many opinions will change from one match to the next based on the emotion from the most recent result!

Very true. one game in heaven, next one in hell. That's nature of  life for a national coach, so does for a fan.

[Kent]

21 hours ago, frmr said:

Yes of course, I agree that it's all opinion and basically pointless. I'm subtly trying to make a point in this thread though, and hopefully for some of our more discerning readers, it's not lost. Take our most recent contestant, The Real Marc: in his second last post he stated that two results do not make Herdman the best manager in Concacaf. When I asked him who was the best manager in Concacaf, he said that based on results, Berhalter. I pointed out that prior to the Honduras game, basically everyone was saying he should be fired, including American fans, the American sports media, and even fans from other countries (aside from those who wanted him to stay to continue driving the USMNT into the ground). Then, after what was admittedly a great result in Honduras, and a very expected win against the bottom team in the group, The Real Marc called him the best manager in Concacaf based on results. So in the span of two posts, The Real Marc said that Herdman could not possibly considered the best manager off of two (great) results, having started not from the brink of getting fired, but from already a pretty good position, result-wise, and yet Berhalter went from the brink of getting fired to being the best Concacaf manager in his eyes, off of, that's right: two results.

This is my point, and this is why I've started this new meme for the thread of "intellectually inferior". Because that logic is a fucking joke. Literally and seriously. And he's not the only one. This thread is littered with embarrassing examples of pseudo-logic where people are moving the goal-posts, exercising mental gymnastics and performing otherwise child-like levels of rational thought on the topic of our manager.

It amuses me to see people exposing themselves like this and that's why I continue to bump this thread and prod at people to see what new and exciting ways people can exhibit how illogical and irrational they can be to explain their positions.

I don't really care which coach is the best in CONCACAF, but to play devil's advocate for Berhalter, his list of results is more than 2 games. If Canada/Herdman had won the Nations League and the Gold Cup, I don't think we would forget about it so quickly. So it's only fair to remember that Berhalter won those tournaments with the USA.

[frmr]

58 minutes ago, Kent said:

I don't really care which coach is the best in CONCACAF, but to play devil's advocate for Berhalter, his list of results is more than 2 games. If Canada/Herdman had won the Nations League and the Gold Cup, I don't think we would forget about it so quickly. So it's only fair to remember that Berhalter won those tournaments with the USA.

That’s true, but again, the same logic needs to be applied to Herdman. We nearly upset Mexico in front of 70k Mexican fans with our MLSers. Surely Herdman deserves a lot of credit for that?

Edited October 11, 2021 by frmr

[nolbertos]

4 hours ago, frmr said:

That’s true, but again, the same logic needs to be applied to Herdman. We nearly upset Mexico in front of 70k Mexican fans with our MLSers. Surely Herdman deserves a lot of credit for that?

Herdman does deserve credit for the tie, but Berhalter as a player tied Mexico at Azteca already and beaten Tata twice in a meaningful competition.  So far Herdman has yet to beat Tata and Berhalter, but has come close.  Right now Berhalter is “unofficially” the best and Tata second.

Edit: Herdman has done alot for the CMNT, but he hasn’t reached Tony Waiters or Holger’s level of accomplishments yet.  He’s getting better but “almost” qualifying for the World Cup won’t help his status, if he doesn’t get the team there.

Edited October 11, 2021 by nolbertos

[narduch]

2 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

Herdman does deserve credit for the tie, but Berhalter as a player tied Mexico at Azteca already and beaten Tata twice in a meaningful competition.  So far Herdman has yet to beat Tata and Berhalter, but has come close.  Right now Berhalter is “unofficially” the best and Tata second.

The American's beat Honduras in San Pedro just a few weeks ago. 4-1.

[PiedPilko]

37 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

Herdman does deserve credit for the tie, but Berhalter as a player tied Mexico at Azteca already and beaten Tata twice in a meaningful competition.  So far Herdman has yet to beat Tata and Berhalter, but has come close.  Right now Berhalter is “unofficially” the best and Tata second.

Edit: Herdman has done alot for the CMNT, but he hasn’t reached Tony Waiters or Holger’s level of accomplishments yet.  He’s getting better but “almost” qualifying for the World Cup won’t help his status, if he doesn’t get the team there.

He has beaten Berhalter

[Kent]

12 hours ago, frmr said:

That’s true, but again, the same logic needs to be applied to Herdman. We nearly upset Mexico in front of 70k Mexican fans with our MLSers. Surely Herdman deserves a lot of credit for that?

Yeah, absolutely he deserves credit for that. I've always liked Herdman.

Anyways, I have no idea how to evaluate the best coach in CONCACAF. Do you just pick the coach of the best team? Do you pick the one whose team outperforms expectations? If it's the latter, maybe it's the Montserrat coach? Or how about El Salvador or Panama? They were picked by a lot to be bottom of the oct and are now doing quite well. Panama in fact have beaten USA, tied Mexico and Costa Rica, and smashed Jamaica in Jamaica.

Maybe Herdman is the best manager in CONCACAF. I have no idea. I hope he gets us a big win on Wednesday!

[frmr]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Yeah, absolutely he deserves credit for that. I've always liked Herdman.

Anyways, I have no idea how to evaluate the best coach in CONCACAF. Do you just pick the coach of the best team? Do you pick the one whose team outperforms expectations? If it's the latter, maybe it's the Montserrat coach? Or how about El Salvador or Panama? They were picked by a lot to be bottom of the oct and are now doing quite well. Panama in fact have beaten USA, tied Mexico and Costa Rica, and smashed Jamaica in Jamaica.

Maybe Herdman is the best manager in CONCACAF. I have no idea. I hope he gets us a big win on Wednesday!

Yeah probably a mix of overall results and how much the team is over-performing. A manager who has his squad over-performing by 10% at the top of the table is better than a manager that has his squad over-performing by 12% at the bottom of the table. I know nothing about the Panama manager but he seems to have his team playing pretty well right now. Will be a good measure of Herdman to see if he can bring them back down to earth.

I don't know if Herdman is the best manager in Concacaf either but he's certainly not one of the worst. A win against Panama on Wednesday keeps us on pace and should keep him in all of our good books.

[canuckgbp]

I know we called in 27 but the only replacement has been St. Clair for Borjan. 

Essentially we had only 24 called that we knew were available. Hoilett going down was unforeseen but that reinforces the need for a bigger squad. Think he has to get over only calling 23-24 and get 27 involved. This window should have been the one with 30 with 3/4 on "in the best case" we can use them. 

If Larin, Hutch and Cavallini health weren't in question would we have seen this other players? Possibly Millar? 

Tesho, Ennin and another midfielder like Baldisimo or Paton should be here. Even Waterman incase Johnston can't go makes some sense.

Yeah it is hindsight but we knew 3 players availability were in question before the squads were announced. Hoilett going down wasn't planned but with a super thin attack a couple more forwards should be here. 

If it is strictly a monetary issue then shame on the CSA. The only thing that matters is qualifying. If it was strictly on Herdman and his "togetherness" then in my opinion he needs to get over it. 

Next window we only have 2 games, both at home. Probably won't need 30 called but if availability is in question for several players again and the depth is looking thin then call 24,25,26. 

 

[king1010]

22 minutes ago, canuckgbp said:

I know we called in 27 but the only replacement has been St. Clair for Borjan. 

Essentially we had only 24 called that we knew were available. Hoilett going down was unforeseen but that reinforces the need for a bigger squad. Think he has to get over only calling 23-24 and get 27 involved. This window should have been the one with 30 with 3/4 on "in the best case" we can use them. 

If Larin, Hutch and Cavallini health weren't in question would we have seen this other players? Possibly Millar? 

Tesho, Ennin and another midfielder like Baldisimo or Paton should be here. Even Waterman incase Johnston can't go makes some sense.

Yeah it is hindsight but we knew 3 players availability were in question before the squads were announced. Hoilett going down wasn't planned but with a super thin attack a couple more forwards should be here. 

If it is strictly a monetary issue then shame on the CSA. The only thing that matters is qualifying. If it was strictly on Herdman and his "togetherness" then in my opinion he needs to get over it. 

Next window we only have 2 games, both at home. Probably won't need 30 called but if availability is in question for several players again and the depth is looking thin then call 24,25,26. 

 

ZBG? 

[canuckgbp]

19 minutes ago, king1010 said:

ZBG? 

I mean we knew 4 players were injured/covid. The only replacement we got was St. Clair for Borjan. We didn't bring anyone for Larin, Hutch, Cav even though they wouldn't be travelling. I am saying he should of called additional players for those 3. 

I was never a true 27 player squad. Best case was those 3 joining up in Toronto. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by canuckgbp

[PiedPilko]

52 minutes ago, king1010 said:

ZBG? 

I don't understand why he was called when we had more uncertainty at every other position. Even with Richie and Tajon out, he didn't see any playing time. 

 

Tesho/Ennin or even Waterman/James would've made more sense.

[canuckgbp]

I don't mind ZGB think he can provide some good cover. But others should have been called as well.