Herdman new head coach

[dbailey62]

I have qualms as well and I've said so since day one. I too liked OZ and I'd like to hear the whole truth about his dismissal. 

It had more to do with just coaching. His responsibilities were much bigger than that. 

The big difference is I choose not to ridicule the man as you have done. 

I'm giving him a chance despite the fact I'd have much rather seen MDS in this position. 

Others seem disinclined to do so. 

 

[Kent]

Yeah, I am a Herdman defender but in terms of coaching performance of course OZ deserved more of a chance than he was given. Maybe he was unjustifiably dismissed, maybe there was something behind the scenes, or maybe CSA just thought they had someone better in Herdman, just like so many players get dropped all the time in favour of someone else.

On a side note I have learned a couple things in the last few posts though.

1. dbailey62’s real name is David, I liked to assume it was Donovan.

2. Unnamed Trialist apparently knows how every manager of every national team reaches out to his players when they are hired.

I really see nothing odd with him sending a letter at all. I have seen new executives do it in the business world, as a former season ticket holder I’ve seen the manager send a letter to the fans delivered with the tickets. A little introductory letter seems perfectly reasonable as a first contact thing. Unless we know who it was sent to and/or what it said it seems ridiculous to me to criticize him for this.

[kacbru]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

I really see nothing odd with him sending a letter at all. I have seen new executives do it in the business world, as a former season ticket holder I’ve seen the manager send a letter to the fans delivered with the tickets. A little introductory letter seems perfectly reasonable as a first contact thing. Unless we know who it was sent to and/or what it said it seems ridiculous to me to criticize him for this.

Now it is getting interesting, the season ticket holder freebies.  What else was included with the letter?  A Canada fridge magnet?  A Herdman bobble-head?  Or god forbid, inflatable thundersticks?

[Vic]

"I find this absolutely hilarious the lengths some will go to rationalize not giving a guy who's been a proven success even a chance to succeed or fail totally based on a sexist based premise."

Been a proven success? We're talking about men's soccer here and he has absolutely zero.

Had you said "been a proven success in women's soccer" that's a different story, and that also would lessened the impact of the original statement.

As much or more than gender change is the cultural change. All of Herdman's experience is dealing with players earning mostly government handouts and in a scenario where players have little playing options and will break their backs to play on the national team. Yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir.

That's not the case any longer and that change in economics (financial and supply and demand) will be as or more difficult than gender to manage.

[Cheeta]

Hopefully, one day soon the position of Canadian Men's National Team coach/manager won't be something so trivial as, oh I don't know, a laboratory for the conducting of tests on Lab Rats. 

That is, to say, we'll be in a position where we wouldn't ever even consider a coach who has neither coached nor played professional football as our Men's National Team manager. 

Let's just keep the dice rolling to the casinos shall we? No?

Here's hoping Mr Herdman is a surprising run-away success (not betting on it).....bottoms up!

[BearcatSA]

33 minutes ago, Vic said:

As much or more than gender change is the cultural change. All of Herdman's experience is dealing with players earning mostly government handouts and in a scenario where players have little playing options and will break their backs to play on the national team. Yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir.

I see the same thing as you.  As Captain Obvious would say, it's going to be a big challenge.

I wonder if he will be filling up all available international windows with senior MNT matches for 2018 or will he choose to keep the program in a lower profile and concentrate upon that U23-U20 core?

[Grizzly]

It may not be a big detail but I find the letter to be a bit of a bizarre way of first introduction. One would expect that he would at least call the main players in the pool during his first week. It is possible that he did but it does not sound like that is what happened. It is not like he is taking over a corporation of several thousand workers, he would only need to call 30 to 40 players. He is employed in a full time job (and one with a lot of downtime) and is already familiar with our player pool so it does not seem like a particularly hard task to accomplish. A letter seems a bit impersonal and unusual to me and I suspect some of the players may feel likewise. It is not a make or break issue but also does not assuage those skeptical of this hire and when you get a job in these circumstances with a lot of people questioning your qualifications it is perfectly natural that people and players are going to question everything you do. He is really going to need to get some results early on that are at least on par with what Zambrano was getting to take the pressure of critics and skeptics off of him.

[xcalibre]

Who got the letter? The last squad? I want players who might be on the fence to know that a new coach is seeing things as a clean slate. The letter in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing though, just hope he's not already alienating anyone.

[Joe MacCarthy]

5 hours ago, Vic said:

Had you said "been a proven success in women's soccer" that's a different story, and that also would lessened the impact of the original statement.

Which is what I meant, and somehow you managed to surmise, yes

[Joe MacCarthy]

5 hours ago, Vic said:

As much or more than gender change is the cultural change. All of Herdman's experience is dealing with players earning mostly government handouts and in a scenario where players have little playing options and will break their backs to play on the national team. Yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir.

Exactly who on the men's team is an overwhelming success at the top level?  How many of these guys consistently play games in the Big Four.  Does it even take one hand to count that number?  Some people here think Herdman has something to prove, I think most of that team has something to prove to him.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't ever remember a time when we've had fewer players playing full time for big name clubs

[Grizzly]

15 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

Exactly who on the men's team is an overwhelming success at the top level?  How many of these guys consistently play games in the Big Four.  Does it even take one hand to count that number?  Some people here think Herdman has something to prove, I think most of that team has something to prove to him.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't ever remember a time when we've had fewer players playing full time for big name clubs

To the extent he is the head of the program every player has something to prove to him. However, to the extent that as a head coach who needs to get the maximum level of effort and commitment out of players he has a lot to prove to all of them. His experience in mens soccer and professional soccer is pretty much zero. Hopefully his experience in women's international soccer will translate but as far as the men's game goes even our players in German third division have more experience than him and their coaches have vastly more experience than he does. If he wants to get the players to be motivated to play for him and buy into his system he will need to prove to them pretty quickly that he knows what he is doing and is not out of his depth as a coach.

[Unnamed Trialist]

11 hours ago, Kent said:

Yeah, I am a Herdman defender but in terms of coaching performance of course OZ deserved more of a chance than he was given. Maybe he was unjustifiably dismissed, maybe there was something behind the scenes, or maybe CSA just thought they had someone better in Herdman, just like so many players get dropped all the time in favour of someone else.

On a side note I have learned a couple things in the last few posts though.

1. dbailey62’s real name is David, I liked to assume it was Donovan.

2. Unnamed Trialist apparently knows how every manager of every national team reaches out to his players when they are hired.

I really see nothing odd with him sending a letter at all. I have seen new executives do it in the business world, as a former season ticket holder I’ve seen the manager send a letter to the fans delivered with the tickets. A little introductory letter seems perfectly reasonable as a first contact thing. Unless we know who it was sent to and/or what it said it seems ridiculous to me to criticize him for this.

Wow you thinks it's okay because you've seen CEOS do it, great. That is your basis for denying what soccer protocol normally is.

I can't think of a single case in managerial changes, though I'm sure there have been a few. As I said, there are two standards: one is to let the federation do the work or for tge new coach to call, and always limited to senior players or captains. The other is to not say anything and wait for the first call up and then do calls made previously related to player availability for that specific case. . 

Edited January 25, 2018 by Unnamed Trialist

[Vic]

5 hours ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

Exactly who on the men's team is an overwhelming success at the top level?  How many of these guys consistently play games in the Big Four.  Does it even take one hand to count that number?  Some people here think Herdman has something to prove, I think most of that team has something to prove to him.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't ever remember a time when we've had fewer players playing full time for big name clubs

It's a bit different on the women's side. If you aren't on the WNT and want to play the game as a career your option is essentially the national team - period. Some countries have strict rules around women playing (i.e. England where you must have X% of recent national caps forcing a catch-22 for a developing player, to channel Genesis - you gotta get in to get out). A lot of the players who leave to play internationally do so under a grandfathered passport. There are also very few countries you can go to as a woman to play as your sole source of income.

As we have zero opportunities in Canada for even elite women's soccer, and negative infinity for anything more than that, the end run is the national program is the bright light at then end of the tunnel. The men's game being more advanced has both domestic and international career opportunities with MNT caps being icing on the cake and not the cake. There are no year-long residencies or four-month camps. It's a hugely different dynamic in terms of motivations and management.

 

Edited January 25, 2018 by Vic
typo

[ted]

15 hours ago, Kent said:

I really see nothing odd with him sending a letter at all. I have seen new executives do it in the business world, as a former season ticket holder I’ve seen the manager send a letter to the fans delivered with the tickets. A little introductory letter seems perfectly reasonable as a first contact thing. Unless we know who it was sent to and/or what it said it seems ridiculous to me to criticize him for this.

No kidding. Given the circumstances, and the delay until he actually gets to meet with them face-to-face, it seems a reasonable thing to do.

[Joe MacCarthy]

But there is something sexist about saying a man who has coached women is incapable of coaching men, that is a straight-up fact!

[Unnamed Trialist]

17 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

But there is something sexist about saying a man who has coached women is incapable of coaching men, that is a straight-up fact!

You just won't let it go, will you? You have no argument, so you pull out the sexist line because it is all you have to fall back on. Sorry, it just doesn't hold and all you are doing is coming on the board to directly insult 90% of posters here. 

Look, I coached young women's soccer in the 70s, in a pioneer league, when no one gave a damn, the project founded by a person so forward thinking that the leagues now are named after him. So it is like, who the fuck is this person who us calling me names for expressing an opinion?

Edited January 26, 2018 by Unnamed Trialist

[jpg75]

24 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

But there is something sexist about saying a man who has coached women is incapable of coaching men, that is a straight-up fact!

But that's not what people are saying! We're saying a man who has coached at the WNT level is a risky bet to step up and coach the MNT. Maybe he'll be a good coach, maybe he won't. If a guy had only coached our U17 team and semi-pro clubs would you call us ageists for saying he's under qualified? Or would you say the candidate has no credible CV? For 350K we should expect someone with a decent track record to coach our NT.

[Joe MacCarthy]

14 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

So it is like, who the fuck is this person who us calling me names for expressing an opinion?

Like Tricky Dick Nixon used to say "If the shoe fits, well it" 

[Joe MacCarthy]

22 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You just won't let it go, will you? You have no argument, so you pull out the sexist line because it is all you have to fall back on.

It's all I need because it's the truth and it's hilarious to see some of you spinning cartwheels trying to prove to me otherwise.  You don't need to prove anything to me, your previous posts are as the Nazis used to say "All the people need to know"

[Unnamed Trialist]

14 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

It's all I need because it's the truth and it's hilarious to see some of you spinning cartwheels trying to prove to me otherwise.  You don't need to prove anything to me, your previous posts are as the Nazis used to say "All the people need to know"

Really Joe, Nixon, Nazi quotes? You like Herdman, that is a fair opinion, he is going to be a great coach no doubt and Canada will qualify for the HEX. Anyone who doesn't agree is harbouring secret hatred towards women.

Nixon and German Fascism convinced me.

[Joe MacCarthy]

2 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

he is going to be a great coach no doubt and Canada will qualify for the HEX.

Never said it and have railed against those who won't give him a chance to prove or disprove it.

[Gian-Luca]

58 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

But there is something sexist about saying a man who has coached women is incapable of coaching men, that is a straight-up fact!

As far as I can tell, it is a straight up fact that no one here has said this. People who are complaining about his lack of experience coaching men's soccer are complaining about a lack of experience, not saying that he is incapable. 

You are making this claim of sexism based on a complete strawman argument. 

[Joe MacCarthy]

4 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

As far as I can tell, it is a straight up fact that no one here has said this. People who are complaining about his lack of experience coaching men's soccer are complaining about a lack of experience, not saying that he is incapable.

And some are equating those as the same thing, I'm just holdin' up the mirror.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Joe MacCarthy

[Admin]

It's just too strong an accusation for people discussing soccer, especially given the current weight such a claim carries. 

[Gian-Luca]

Bump.

It's like David McCallum making himself visible again (apologies for those who might not get the reference)