Herdman new head coach

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, matty said:

Did OZ have CA experience? Also Herd coached matches in Brazil in one of the most important tournaments in women's soccer.

I'm with everyone in questioning if he's the right fit but want to see if he translates well before crucifying him because I don't like the CSA's handling of this.

Also what did my comment have to do with any of this.

Yeah Zambrano had no experience directly in central america but coaching for years on the club side in Colombia (and I think Ecuador) was likely a better proxy than Brazil at the Olympics. 

Now if the were talking about the 2022 world cup in Qatar and debating whether or not Zambrano had a better proxy than Herdman, I would say no because he has World Cup experience.

But...we have to get there first...and the path will go through central america.

[Vic]

1 hour ago, carolynduthie said:

This happens all the time. The last France coach got hired and literally admitted he had never seen a women's soccer game (I'm sure Herdman has seen men play soccer before?). 

Which is why he didn't even last a year and why they went back to a women's coach.

And it doesn't happen all the time. Maybe in Africa, communist countries, dictatorships or backwoods republics. But in the civilized world of women's soccer it's not very common.

My comment was iifthis happened to OUR women's team (or the Americans) there would be a sh#tstorm. And I'll go one better - they would 100% walk out. And I think that's a fairly simple connect the dots from the past decade of gender equity history. And I also think it's a good thing.

The ironic part about them walking out is it would be because of their professionalism, whereas our men won't because they're professionals. 

The"fairness" element is far more important to women whereas men are more driven by the financial element and lifetime career impact. 

[matty]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Yeah Zambrano had no experience directly in central america but coaching for years on the club side in Colombia (and I think Ecuador) was likely a better proxy than Brazil at the Olympics. 

Now if the were talking about the 2022 world cup in Qatar and debating whether or not Zambrano had a better proxy than Herdman, I would say no because he has World Cup experience.

But...we have to get there first...and the path will go through central america.

Yea I agree OZ's time in South America (I think he worked in Colombia too) was more valuable but don't think Kadenge is right to say JH is unqualified outright for CA.

 

[Obinna]

12 minutes ago, matty said:

Yea I agree OZ's time in South America (I think he worked in Colombia too) was more valuable but don't think Kadenge is right to say JH is unqualified outright for CA.

 

I think he's qualified in a sense but so are Marc Dos Santos, Mauro Biello and many other coaches, all for different reasons. 

I see nothing wrong with the opinion that Zambrano is more qualified than Herdman, with the biggest knock against him, of course, that he hasn't coached a high level game in Men's soccer. Zambrano has.

Of course, when I brought up this point in online debates, the response was CWNT fans (all men btw) calling me sexist. 

Which takes us back to what I was saying before about (some) CWNT fans...

 

[matty]

6 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I think he's qualified in a sense but so are Marc Dos Santos, Mauro Biello and many other coaches, all for different reasons. 

I see nothing wrong with the opinion that Zambrano is more qualified than Herdman, with the biggest knock against him, of course, that he hasn't coached a high level game in Men's soccer. Zambrano has.

Of course, when I brought up this point in online debates, the response was CWNT fans (all men btw) calling me sexist. 

Which takes us back to what I was saying before about (some) CWNT fans...

I think that's mostly people being indifferent to differences between the two games and certain segments being more vocal online.

Anyways we just disagree on the numbers (at least for male fans). Let's leave it

PS. Agree JH's appointment should be criticised and OZ, while possibly not a better coach, was more traditionally qualified (no idea about OZ's admin stuff)

Edited January 13, 2018 by matty

[Bison44]

Did we all watch the TSN live interview a few hours ago??  Jack specifically asked him what were the problems with the mens side and Herdman did a verbal dance for 3minutes and said absolutely nothing.  He also seemed to take credit for the New Zealand mens making the world cup (I had to google it after the interview to make sure he wasnt working on the mens side back then).  About the only thing that he said that "seemed " positive was that he wanted to stay in canada, raise his kids here.  Which is nice, but it doesnt ring true when everyone knows you were ready to jump to the englands head coaching job.

check it out  https://www.tsn.ca/soccer/video/herdman-says-the-time-felt-right-for-new-opportunity~1303151

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, matty said:

I think that's mostly people being indifferent to differences between the two games and certain segments being more vocal online.

Anyways we just disagree on the numbers (at least for male fans). Let's leave it

As a final word though, I must point out that "being indifferent to differences between the two games" just completely ignores the massive gulf in quality. It is replaces a soccer agument with a gender argument and reinforces my opinion of those people, but I digress.

[matty]

18 minutes ago, Obinna said:

As a final word though, I must point out that "being indifferent to differences between the two games" just completely ignores the massive gulf in quality. It is replaces a soccer agument with a gender argument and reinforces my opinion of those people, but I digress.

Or it's a matter blind casual excitement (again folks like a winner) rather than politics (imo at least virture signal mean political motives). Not arguing but throwing it out there for the poll (online debates are different). Good chat

[The Beaver]

I missed the press conference. What are the key take-aways? What is his overall philosophy? His on-field philosophy? Did he provide the broad strokes of his plan, especially key next steps? 

[BearcatSA]

5 hours ago, jpg75 said:

I blame Vic for this myth (basically a result of the 8-1 whooping), but history shows you need to win your HOME games to advance in CONCACAF with the odd road result to help your case (draw or win).

You definitely can't sh*t the bed at home but I also think you really need to be able to put the sword to the weakest CA or Caribbean opponent in your group in their house.

I don't think anybody has a clue of what to expect come his player selections for friendlies and camps in 2018.  His big strength as a manager was to build a club mentality within the WNT using a variety of means.  I'm not sure you can build that kind of culture with the player pool we have at our disposal because of the more demanding pro club commitments, with many of our guys unavailable for international windows because of the league tier at which they play.  That's a big if. 

But, I'll say it again, like I've said with all the previous MNT managers since I have been on this board, let's see what he can do.  We might be on to something special or he'll be in, in the words of Bob McCown, "just another guy."

And even, now after a few days, I still think the CSA looks like the Cleveland Browns with how things played out.

 

[The Beaver]

Okay, just found the interview on Sportsnet.  I thought Herdman did well, but the circumstances under which the CSA removed Zambrano impacted Herdman's ability to focus on what he is going to do with the men's side in any half-tangible terms.  

What I take away from this, and from everything else that has been reported thus far:

1. CSA clearly wanted Zambrano to establish a development system AND coach the team, but that he was lacking on the former. Herdman, unsurprisingly, talked about building an integrated development system intended to get us better and better results over the long term, and forever. He talked about systems a fair bit. Suggests to me that he is indeed strategic, which is great to hear and not a surprise.

2. I did not hear anything specific about on-field goals and playing philosophy, but I was pleased to hear that he will be talking to core players--the leaders on our team--before he starts developing and outlining that philosophy. Very smart. I was pleased to hear him admit he has gaps in his coaching, and that he continues to get help on how to get the best out of players etc. A combination of determination and humility in a leader tends to be the magic formula for sustained success.

3. The Beaver's Big Prediction: The irony of all of this is that Herdman will likely improve our overall development system, maybe even significantly and in a manner that will be sustained, but that he will likely not reap the benefits of that great work on the field because it will likely take a decade for that system to produce the sorts of players that will get us to the World Cup. (Think of the soccer renaissance in France that led to their World Cup and Euro win, for instance.) Having said that, with the system in place and humming along nicely, the first coach with reasonable pedigree who replaces Herdman will benefit immediately from all of John's vision and hard work. 

4. The Beaver's Big Wish: That the CSA had the funds to hire Herdman to do what he is great at while keeping Zambrano as coach. Who knows, maybe they even tried that, but I am guessing that neither Z nor Herdman found the arrangement enticing.

Let's see what Herdman will do. He's damned smart and hardworking and is a consummate builder and visionary; I just hope we don't have to wait a decade before we start getting good results on the field.

Oh, and he did not come across as smug to me at all. Not one bit.

 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

After a few days, I am still as disgusted by the decision as when I first heard it. And very angry with the CSA for making it. But since there are enough posters here and opinions out there thinking we have to get behind him, let me summarize my position, trying to interpret my emotions.

1-Zambrano had done everything to suggest he was a good coach, capable of getting us good results, building on Floro and improving a lot of things. We were watchable, the Gold Cup was fun even. Since he was recently hired to do a project there is no basis to fire him for reasons that have nothing to do with performance on the pitch. That is disgraceful, at a club, anywhere, unless there is some extreme disciplinary question involved. No coach doing the job they were duly hired for should be fired for reasons unrelated to the quality of his coaching.

2-Herdman has no experience in men's football. I believe this is a mark against him, as would be having some but very limited or at a low level. There are many differences between the games, and as I have even coached both, and watched both in the past and do so now, I still see them. He has no experience with this.

3-There is no evidence from the way our women played that he can make us play well. Canada has been effective while not being the technially strongest team out there. This exposed us at the WC, but at the Olympics we overcame it. But we do not play very nicely, are not at all modern, we are still excessively direct and naive tactically. These are not things to be thinking we have to take over to the men. The only thing Herdman could argue is that he got a lot out of a team like ours, we played over our heads (remembering our ranking has never justified getting past a quarter final).

4-Herdman was not honest with his colleague Zambrano, meaning we will never know in the future either. He is not to be trusted. He seems to have played the CSA boardroom to his advantage, clearly working to take away a colleague's job. It is appalling the CSA and Reed especially would have agreed to this, they should have told him to grow up, find a USL job or a men's team in Australia or something, and please, John, come back in a few years. So the CSA backs a guy who should not be backed, he should be told to grow up. If he was dishonest and disloyal behind people's backs he will be in the future with the men. Wait for it.

5-Women and men play the game differently and results are gotten differently. Meaning coaches have to have a different set of knowlege and experience to succeed. At youth age, for up to 14-15 this would not be so problematic, but as adults it is. Even at the highest level of women's football, you do not see the edge, drive, meanness, extreme competitive drive, hubris, never mind the speed, variations and tactical complexity. Little of the diving, insults, elbows. A divided ball in the men's game is war, in women's it is still overly polite. Even today way more fouls in women's are for lateness or clumsiness, rather than pushing the limits and being called, then screaming at the ref. Defending in the box is ornery with the men, the women are still guileless. Every women's game I see (I watch Barça, enjoying Mertens lately), I am reminded of this. It is incredibly orderly and clean, it is textbook neat, like a computer game version of soccer. It is aesthetic for this reason, that is one reason people like to watch it. It is mostly totally lacking in the dire madness of the men's games. And Herdman is not ready for this, he has never seen it at work.*

6-A national team is a bad place for a coach to learn about the men's game. Because there are just too few games, and little training, it is not the way. For me his appointment is a huge risk because it is technically inadequate and this will more than likely show when push comes to shove. The cycles are too short and slim to prove anything quickly and then, before you know it, it is too late. Herdman will be able to end up hiding behind getting the same results as all the rest (not qualifying for the WC, no Olympics, no World u-20, no great GC tournament). And then we will have a new CSA president (back to our  internal Anglo-Latin wars perhaps?), and we will start all over again. 

 

*I admit the women's game is way better now internationally than even 10 years ago, or maybe 15. Players are fitter (overweight players were common until not that long ago), keepers make way fewer amateur errors (though average height is a factor, no doubt, making it one of the hardest positions in women's soccer, since shots go the same places they do with the men), the players line up on the pitch and interpret positional play way better. Now you watch teams pass, it is clean and orderly. It is more technical overall. I am not slighting it, I watch it, but it does not have the bite and cruelty. It is the same with women's basketball, and handball. With women's hockey too. Not all sports, for sure (women's MMA is frigging amazing and just as gutsy), but in soccer it is way softer and much saner in the crunch. What version of soccer is closer to how you draw it up on the blackboard? The answer is very obvious to me. What sort of drawings is JH going to come up with when he has the boys in the locker room, all ears? And does he honestly have any idea of how it is supposed to work?

 

Edited January 14, 2018 by Unnamed Trialist

[Gian-Luca]

I found this analysis more interesting that either of the actual Herdman interviews:

https://www.tsn.ca/herdman-says-time-was-right-for-new-coaching-challenge-1.967352

Not sure I can get the link correctly, but I am referring to the video of Stephen Caldwell & Kristian Jack analysis which rips apart the CSA on this one that is on that page.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Gian-Luca

[The Beaver]

4 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

I found this analysis more interesting that either of the actual Herdman interviews:

https://www.tsn.ca/herdman-says-time-was-right-for-new-coaching-challenge-1.967352

Not sure I can get the link correctly, but I am referring to the video of Stephen Caldwell & Kristian Jack analysis which rips apart the CSA on this one that is on that page.

Great analysis all around. 

 

[Free kick]

On 1/13/2018 at 9:31 AM, Gian-Luca said:

The men he will be coaching will have fundamentally different experiences of their own as professional players and from the environments they will have played in - even before you get into all of the physical differences. Just from a "motivational coach" point of view, it will be a completely new experience for him in trying to motivate players who have completely different experiences and most likely very different personalities. If he doesn't understand that, then he might not know what he's letting himself in for, and will need to learn in a hurry.

This is key a part.  For women players, their notoriety is created and exists only through their olympic experience and perhaps the womens world cup.   Their careers are defined almost entirely by their callup to national team.

Women soccer player are olympians, whereas men are profesionals and the national team callup is the cherry on the sundae of their careers; the achievement award.  Thats because their (men) reputation and notoriety is established and created in their professional career.   Men can more easily say: “No”.    No,  i dont want to play the way you want us to.   No, i dont want to risk losing my spot at the club by coming over.  No, i cant come because my club has an important game. No, i dont want to play for Canada just now because i might get called for country X.

These are huge differences between coaching the men and women and they impact how you motivate players.   What might work for motivating women, wont work for motivating men.   Women are more apt to play anyway you want them to or in any role just to be on the national team and go to the olympics.   Men, if they dont like a coach,  can tell a coach and his motivation techniquez to shove it. 

Edited January 14, 2018 by Free kick

[mpg_29]

4 minutes ago, Free kick said:

This is key part.  For women players, their notoriety is created and exists only through their olympic experience and perhaps the womens world cup.   Their careers are defined almost entirely by their callup to national team.

Women soccer player are olympians, whereas for the men, the national team callup is the cherry on the sundae of their careers.  Thats because their reputation and notoriety is established and created in their professional career.   Hence mens, can more easily say: “No”.    No,  i dont want to play the way you want us to.   No, i dont want to risk losing my spot at the club by coming over.  No, i cant come because my club has an important game. No, i dont dont want to play for Canada just now because i might be called up for country X.

These are huge differences between coaching the men and women and they impact how you motivate and players.   What might work for motivating women, wont work for motivating men.   Women are more apt to play anyway you want them to or in any role just to be on the national team and go to the olympics.   Men, if they dont like a coach,  can tell a coach and his motivation techniquez to shove it. 

This is true but also less of the case in Canada. Outside of a few players most are not at a high level earning millions..most are lucky to get minutes in lower leagues and not getting paid high amounts.....Herdman is probably making more than 90%-95% of the players..

[Bison44]

27 minutes ago, Free kick said:

This is key a part.  For women players, their notoriety is created and exists only through their olympic experience and perhaps the womens world cup.   Their careers are defined almost entirely by their callup to national team.

Women soccer player are olympians, whereas for the men,  they’re profesionals and the national team callup is the cherry on the sundae of their careers; the achievement award.  Thats because their reputation and notoriety is established and created in their professional career.   Hence mens, can more easily say: “No”.    No,  i dont want to play the way you want us to.   No, i dont want to risk losing my spot at the club by coming over.  No, i cant come because my club has an important game. No, i dont dont want to play for Canada just now because i might be called up for country X.

These are huge differences between coaching the men and women and they impact how you motivate and players.   What might work for motivating women, wont work for motivating men.   Women are more apt to play anyway you want them to or in any role just to be on the national team and go to the olympics.   Men, if they dont like a coach,  can tell a coach and his motivation techniquez to shove it. 

 

I'm sure if he doesnt get this big difference now, he soon will.  Dealing with the womens players who have such limited opportunities to make a living and are very motivated to play on the national squad/win medals etc must be very different from men.  I'd like to think these guys are as motivated as the women but I dont think they are.  I cant see most of our pros risking their club carer over the olympic team, gold cup or anything short of WCQ.  They wont be as willing to commit to what the national team coach says as the women.  

[Scorpion26]

Wonder if he has started talking to Tabla.... let see if he can get him to join Canada.

[BearcatSA]

Herdman's success will premise upon key young guys (i.e. Davies and others) truly coming good and becoming big time contributors to the team in the same way Lawrence, Buchanan, Fleming, and a couple of others have emerged with CWNT.  If these guys remain as members of Pressbox-on-Match-Days United or simply don't pan out, then Herdman's going to be, in the words of Bob McCown, "just another guy" in the CMNT gaffer vortex. 

Unless something emerges that is catastrophic from a p.r. point of view, Herdman is going to be the face of the CMNT for the next several years.  The CSA are tied to that wagon, hopefully for the better.

[Bertuzzi44]

I watched the entire Sportsnet interview with Sharman and Herdman did not come off well in my eyes. Spent most of the interview talking about the job he just left as opposed to the job he will be taking on. Very self-congratulatory and didn't mention Zambrano's name once.

I don't follow the Women's game as closely as many on here do, and I hear Herdman is respected and liked, but from what's I've seen/heard and as primarily a supporter of the Men's team Herdman comes off poorly. If he doesn't improve on what OZ had accomplished there should be hell to pay.

[Northvansteve]

23 hours ago, The Beaver said:

1. CSA clearly wanted Zambrano to establish a development system AND coach the team, but that he was lacking on the former. Herdman, unsurprisingly, talked about building an integrated development system intended to get us better and better results over the long term, and forever. He talked about systems a fair bit. Suggests to me that he is indeed strategic, which is great to hear and not a surprise.

 

 

 

Think you nailed it here. CSA clearly believes Herdman can build a system and Zambrano would not be able to get that job done. I'm hoping we will look back at this move as the first step at establishing a strong development system in Canada.

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, Northvansteve said:

Think you nailed it here. CSA clearly believes Herdman can build a system and Zambrano would not be able to get that job done. I'm hoping we will look back at this move as the first step at establishing a strong development system in Canada.

As much as this whole thing still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, I very much hope this is true and that the ends will ultimately justify the means.

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 14/1/2018 at 1:14 AM, The Beaver said:

1. CSA clearly wanted Zambrano to establish a development system AND coach the team, but that he was lacking on the former. Herdman, unsurprisingly, talked about building an integrated development system intended to get us better and better results over the long term, and forever. He talked about systems a fair bit. Suggests to me that he is indeed strategic, which is great to hear and not a surprise.

The problem with this is that it clearly overstates the importance of a national development system for the men. 

First, there is little more we can do, because no camp or academy can develop a footballer. Only club play can. The CSA can then encourage club play. If Reed had any drive to set up the CPL properly, with academies,, Zambrano or Herdman would not have to be called on to strengthen one, we'd have more than double the clubs likely doing it.

At a lower level, unless Reed can get out and convince, or rule, that all provinces have proper high performance leagues, and streaming for top quality players, it is pointless anyways. Development happens at home nine times out of ten.

Second, what else do we want? Identification of young players? Camps for Olympic qualifying or world u-20s, u.17s? Well it turns out none of those things were on the agenda in 2017. Do people honestly think that Octavio, after having consolidating his idea for the Senior men, would not be naturally turning to the next step, the younger ages? Arguing he did not have a plan is plain false, and that he did not implement anything, a very mean-spirited line of reasoning. 

Herdman won't do anything more than Zambrano was not allowed to do, simply because he can't. Unless all of a sudden Reed wakes up and starts implementing in a big way.

[The Beaver]

3 hours ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

I watched the entire Sportsnet interview with Sharman and Herdman did not come off well in my eyes. Spent most of the interview talking about the job he just left as opposed to the job he will be taking on. Very self-congratulatory and didn't mention Zambrano's name once.

I don't follow the Women's game as closely as many on here do, and I hear Herdman is respected and liked, but from what's I've seen/heard and as primarily a supporter of the Men's team Herdman comes off poorly. If he doesn't improve on what OZ had accomplished there should be hell to pay.

To be fair, why would he name Zambrano? Makes no sense considering how the CSA has handled Z's termination. I suspect that Herdman was not allowed to say anything about Zambrano at all, which again makes perfect sense. There are most certainly legal issues at play here, stuff like wrongful dismissal to avoid.

You don't have to love Herdman--none of us do--but Herdman is in the position he is because of how the CSA has handled this. Did you check out KJ's commentary on this? He nailed it when he said that he feels for Herdman because of the way the CSA has handled this. Herdman is not entering this new job under an atmosphere of hope and excitement, but under a shroud of controversy and unclear messaging.  What a shitty way to start a new job! Herdman might be complicit, in so much as he could have pushed for this new role at Zambrano's expense, but the handling of this has been very poor.

My guess: Victor M signs Zambrano, perhaps too hastily, to the job.  Reed comes in to replace Victor, assesses the lay of the land, sees that Zambrano is a decent coach but not a systems builder, and starts the process of talking to Herdman about a new role that is both coach the MNT and developing a comprehensive strategy to build long term development systems for the program.

A few of you have already said this: They are rolling the dice on Herdman as coach.

[The Beaver]

8 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The problem with this is that it clearly overstates the importance of a national development system for the men. 

First, there is little more we can do, because no camp or academy can develop a footballer. Only club play can. The CSA can then encourage club play. If Reed had any drive to set up the CPL properly, with academies,, Zambrano or Herdman would not have to be called on to strengthen one, we'd have more than double the clubs likely doing it.

At a lower level, unless Reed can get out and convince, or rule, that all provinces have proper high performance leagues, and streaming for top quality players, it is pointless anyways. Development happens at home nine times out of ten.

Second, what else do we want? Identification of young players? Camps for Olympic qualifying or world u-20s, u.17s? Well it turns out none of those things were on the agenda in 2017. Do people honestly think that Octavio, after having consolidating his idea for the Senior men, would not be naturally turning to the next step, the younger ages? Arguing he did not have a plan is plain false, and that he did not implement anything, a very mean-spirited line of reasoning. 

Herdman won't do anything more than Zambrano was not allowed to do, simply because he can't. Unless all of a sudden Reed wakes up and starts implementing in a big way.

I don't disagree. I mean, I suspect there ARE things that Herdman can do to improve the development systems (smaller nuanced things), but you are totally right in thinking that only clubs can effectively develop players.

What makes me most anxious about all of this is that the job seems demanding and unwieldy, the sort that will force Herdman to make compromises in what he focuses on. I know we are cash-strapped, but did we really need to jam two jobs into one?