CPL General

[Watchmen]

11 hours ago, Ansem said:

I'm starting to think that IG Field would have had a better attendance than Vancouver. This tournament needs to build/expand its fanbase across the country. The 3 MLS teams (who mostly played one another for over a decade) hosted for years. Going to CPL venue to get new fans to the competition might pay off medium to long term down the road

Last year the two CPL teams that hosted MLS sides had an attendance figure of about 5000, which is fine but it's still below what Vancouver had.  And those games involved Victoria hosting Vancouver for the first time and Forge in the semi-finals against Montreal.  I would say there's no indication that Valour would have had a better attendance for a mid-week game against the Whitecaps.

11 hours ago, Ansem said:

2 legged series should be coming back, this is temporary. MLS fans had it for over a decade, I don't think it's too much to ask for single leg games to be played in D3 and CPL venues so they get their turn to host MLS clubs.

MLS fans had it when it was only a semi final and final.  We've introduced a quarter final stage now, and with another CPL team coming next year, League 1 BC starting up now, and a Central League 1 on the way, I suspect we'll get a round of 16 soon too.  Considering how much trouble the CSA already seems to have finding a consist time/schedule for this tournament, I don't think we'll see a 2 legged series coming back.  Or at least not in every round.

[Ansem]

8 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

It is totally arbitrary.  Us goobers have latched onto these attendance figures based of guesses...No one knows exactly how much revenue is coming in from where.  Which is why we cant hang our hats on that number.  It would be a damn good start if in year 3 (which is about what this is) we get get a few more clubs up to that level.

The 5000 figure came from Paul Beirne before the launch of the league "pre-Mediapro deal"

As the 2019 Valour financial record shows, even without the 5000k attendance, they aren't as much in bad shape as people might think. 

The more clubs & league-wide sponsorship deals they do (which they are), the more financial flexibility they have. Yes, they are still losing money, but not as much as most of us expected them to even with low attendance

[Ansem]

The CSA obviously want to grow the tournament and get new fans, having other hosting it up until say quarterfinals or semi-finals is the best way to grow local interest to get more overall interest nationally.

MLS fans seems more interested in it around the semi-final anyways and if you want to grow the interest for the long term, Vancouver visiting Winnipeg would have been more impactful I would say

[Watchmen]

12 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Where was that??

I'll freely confess that the exact source has long since left my mind.  The closest I can get from Google is this:

"Based on an average estimated attendance of 5,000, losses in the five-year start phase might be around $10M."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bobbymcmahon/2017/05/07/new-canadian-soccer-league-faces-many-of-the-old-problems-as-well-as-some-new-ones/?sh=2e3c85125dea

But, I do remember the commissioner using the 5k attendance as the target attendance as well at one point.  This wasn't something the forum made up.  Maybe someone else remembers it all better than I do.

Edit: There you go. @Ansem remembered it too.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Watchmen

[Bison44]

I remember lots of numbers getting bounced around in 2017....Mr Parrot wont let us forget how most of them were wrong.  

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

8 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

5,000 is so arbitrary as a target. Here's a ranking of top leagues in Europe:

...where bus travel to away games on the day of the game is usually highly doable. 5000 was the lower end of the range that Paul Beirne said the league was targetting when interviewed at length on podcasts.

Numbers as high as 8000 have been mentioned in the past for what was needed to make FCE and the Fury viable in an NASL context when they were paying significantly higher salaries than CanPL teams do at the moment. That was also the upper end of the range that tended to be mentioned in a CanPL context prior to launch and is still probably not coincidentally what Rob Friend wants as the capacity in Langley. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, Watchmen said:

The difference here is that there's 3 "top tier" teams in Canada and 20 in Spain, so you're much more likely to get the chance to host a game in Spain than you would be in Canada.  And I don't see this tournament being an incentive for any stadium improvements from the CPL sides.  In fact League 1 sides have gone so far as to not host, rather than improve the stadium because they simply can't afford it.

I think the format this year worked fairly well. 

7000 last Whitecaps Voyageurs Cup game at BC Place cannot be called "worked fairly well". 

Three years in, even with COVID, how many CPL teams have hosted an MLS team in a Cup match? We are wasting an opportunity.

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

5 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Last year the two CPL teams that hosted MLS sides had an attendance figure of about 5000, which is fine but it's still below what Vancouver had....

...announced would maybe be the better description. Presumably a lot of season ticket no shows given the various pictures that were on twitter showing the actual crowd level or lack thereof.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

9 hours ago, Ansem said:

The 5000 figure came from Paul Beirne before the launch of the league "pre-Mediapro deal"

As the 2019 Valour financial record shows, even without the 5000k attendance, they aren't as much in bad shape as people might think....

The Valour's announced average in 2019 was 5,335.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Canadian_Premier_League_season#Attendance

They had 10,000+ for the opener (initial number used by wikipedia was later corrected higher AFAIR) and unlike the Forge that was a genuine paid attendance by all accounts at the time.

Here's a reminder of what Valour crowds still looked like later on during the spring season of 2019:

Unfortunately interest faded thereafter once the novelty factor wore off.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[m-g-williams]

6 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The Valour's announced average in 2019 was 5,335.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Canadian_Premier_League_season#Attendance

They had 10,000+ for the opener (initial number used by wikipedia was later corrected higher AFAIR) and unlike the Forge that was a genuine paid attendance by all accounts at the time.

Here's a reminder of what Valour crowds still looked like later on during the spring season of 2019:

Unfortunately interest faded thereafter once the novelty factor wore off.

Honest question for the folks here from Winnipeg: Would you say that attendance dropped off after the novelty wore off, or because of Valour's resolutely "meh" performance in the last few years (or both)? It seems like Winnipeg has the potential to be a great CPL market, but I can understand how people might lose interest if the flashy new product isn't quite what people had hoped for. 

[Chad_Impact]

1 hour ago, m-g-williams said:

Honest question for the folks here from Winnipeg: Would you say that attendance dropped off after the novelty wore off, or because of Valour's resolutely "meh" performance in the last few years (or both)? It seems like Winnipeg has the potential to be a great CPL market, but I can understand how people might lose interest if the flashy new product isn't quite what people had hoped for. 

Ide imagine playing in an empty stadium, even at 10k, didn't provide a great experience. 

The big O can have 25-30k people in and still feel quiet, empty and less exciting. 

I think owners really underestimate how important the stadium is to the experience and keeping fans coming back

Edited May 18, 2022 by Chad_Impact

[toontownman]

30 minutes ago, Chad_Impact said:

Ide imagine playing in an empty stadium, even at 10k, didn't provide a great experience. 

The big O can have 25-30k people in and still feel quiet, empty and less exciting. 

I think owners really underestimate how important the stadium is to the experience and keeping fans coming back

Is it a competition thing with he Bombers and Jets maxing out the general fan? My buddy that lives there thinks it is a combination of that, the terrible marketing (he thinks half the city doesn't even know they have a team and hates the name - although thats another story) plus the stadium factor too. He also saw an absolute bum game when he gave it a chance and didn't think he could sit through more, playing standard wise. He is also a UK ex-pat and hates the Capo culture and song sheets, naff chants etc. CPL is always going to struggle with fans that just want to watch top tier football though. They should know what they are walking into. Everything has to start somewhere.

[Blackjack15]

 

 

[Weng]

3 hours ago, m-g-williams said:

Honest question for the folks here from Winnipeg: Would you say that attendance dropped off after the novelty wore off, or because of Valour's resolutely "meh" performance in the last few years (or both)? It seems like Winnipeg has the potential to be a great CPL market, but I can understand how people might lose interest if the flashy new product isn't quite what people had hoped for. 

To be honest, I think a lot of it was because our team wasn’t good and the tactics were not good.  I think there are lot of people that are interested in watching soccer, but it has to be entertaining.  I brought a friend who was from Iran in the first year and he was left frustrated with Valour style of play and skill level (I think it was more to do with coaching).  There were also a group who were from Columbia I talked to who also could see the potential but we’re frustrated at the incompetence of that Valour team.  
   All that to say, I think if we can continue to build an exciting brand of soccer and can be competitive, then I can see Winnipeg easily getting 5-10 000 people a match.

[Kingston]

17 hours ago, Ansem said:

They should be promoting Canadian Championship games they are hosting against CPL just as much as when they host MLS clubs.

The difference is is quite obvious 

If by this you mean that MLS teams should promote home CC games against CPL opponents the same as they do CC games against MLS opponents, I agree.

If the lower level league always hosted as you suggested, however, then the MLS teams would almost never host.  So they wouldn't have an opportunity to promote anything.

I'm just saying I prefer the current system where it is random and so some games are hosted by the lower league team and some by the higher league team.

[Cheeta]

7 hours ago, m-g-williams said:

Honest question for the folks here from Winnipeg: Would you say that attendance dropped off after the novelty wore off, or because of Valour's resolutely "meh" performance in the last few years (or both)? It seems like Winnipeg has the potential to be a great CPL market, but I can understand how people might lose interest if the flashy new product isn't quite what people had hoped for. 

Long but a lot to unpack.

Lot of factors but I think the biggest one is simply being a failure.

The team has had really only one chance to make an impression with Winnipeg's soccer sub-culture and to put it mildly 2019 didn't make quite the impression that Valour was hoping for.  It was a hard ask, starting from scratch, but wow was it baaaad at times.   Always sprinkles of hope in there but even then everyone knew they were just making things up as they went along.  That team won 1 home match in 2019?  And 'bout what they deserved at that.  

I don't think Winnipeg is very different than most of the rest of Canada in that today's "casual" soccer fan has a far more educated eye.  The casual soccer fan of the '90s they are not.

So yeah.  Everyone knew what they were looking at, some were more generous than others but at the end of the day some were going to take a pass on this project until Valour could show they were figuring it out.  Strike 1. 

And then along came a pandemic.

So we get an Island Games covered almost exclusively on OneSoccer.  It is what it is, there's a pandemic on right?  Thank goodness I got a OneSoccer subcription with my season ticket renewal.  But then I didn't.  The team wants to keep my money to defer to the 2021 season whilst also reneging on the OneSoccer subscription I was supposed to get with my 2020 renewal.  So now we have a soccer property confined to a streaming service, which I now need to pay for, all the while said property wants to borrow money from me for a year or so.  You can imagine how that went with the ticket buying public.  Not exaclty a raging success those Island Games were for Valour either.  Those that saw them anyway.  Strike 2.

So 2021 brings us the Kick Off, funded by the Manitoba government to the great financial benefit of the CPL and Winnipeg Football Club who hosted it.  (The same Manitoba government which forgave the Bombers depts incurred from the building of IG Field BTW).   A great start for Valour that NO ONE SAW.  Vax cards and mask mandates put some bums back into seats and eyeballs back onto the product just in time to see Valour looking like Edition 2019 a-gin.  I waiting 2 years for this?  Strike 3.

And now were in a post pandemic world with $2 a liter petrol, $8 a bag McCains chips at SuperStore and a soccer property which has underwhelmed since Day #1.  The Jets couldn't fill their building this season, not even close most nights so how's Valour going to do?  About as expected. 

Trying not to sound aggrieved though I may.  Just trying to, in my typical Cheeta fashion, paint the picture as I see it. 

All that said I have never doubted my belief that this franchise can become the league's flagship.  Not for one second.  It's going to take some doing (and undoing) but it's doable.  As much as WFC is their own worst enemy sometimes (as far as Valour is concerned) I'm liking more of what I'm seeing these days.   

   

 

 

[K Edgar]

https://canadasoccer.com/news/canada-soccers-provisional-list-for-the-concacaf-mens-under-20-championship/

2022 Concacaf Men’s Under-20 Championship
18 June to 3 July 2022 in San Pedro Sula and Tegucigalpa, Honduras

RW- Jean-Aniel Assi | CAN / Cavalry FC
GK- Dino Bontis | CAN / Forge FC Hamilton
M- Matthew Catavolo | CAN / Valour FC
LW- Kamron Habibullah | CAN / Pacific FC
F- Mouhamadou Kane | CAN / York United FC
M- Max Piepgrass | CAN / Cavalry FC
M- Kwasi Poku | CAN / Forge FC Hamilton
F- Lowell Wright | CAN / York United FC

[jonovision]

47 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

Long but a lot to unpack.

Lot of factors but I think the biggest one is simply being a failure.

The team has had really only one chance to make an impression with Winnipeg's soccer sub-culture and to put it mildly 2019 didn't make quite the impression that Valour was hoping for.  It was a hard ask, starting from scratch, but wow was it baaaad at times.   Always sprinkles of hope in there but even then everyone knew they were just making things up as they went along.  That team won 1 home match in 2019?  And 'bout what they deserved at that.  

I don't think Winnipeg is very different than most of the rest of Canada in that today's "casual" soccer fan has a far more educated eye.  The casual soccer fan of the '90s they are not.

So yeah.  Everyone knew what they were looking at, some were more generous than others but at the end of the day some were going to take a pass on this project until Valour could show they were figuring it out.  Strike 1. 

And then along came a pandemic.

So we get an Island Games covered almost exclusively on OneSoccer.  It is what it is, there's a pandemic on right?  Thank goodness I got a OneSoccer subcription with my season ticket renewal.  But then I didn't.  The team wants to keep my money to defer to the 2021 season whilst also reneging on the OneSoccer subscription I was supposed to get with my 2020 renewal.  So now we have a soccer property confined to a streaming service, which I now need to pay for, all the while said property wants to borrow money from me for a year or so.  You can imagine how that went with the ticket buying public.  Not exaclty a raging success those Island Games were for Valour either.  Those that saw them anyway.  Strike 2.

So 2021 brings us the Kick Off, funded by the Manitoba government to the great financial benefit of the CPL and Winnipeg Football Club who hosted it.  (The same Manitoba government which forgave the Bombers depts incurred from the building of IG Field BTW).   A great start for Valour that NO ONE SAW.  Vax cards and mask mandates put some bums back into seats and eyeballs back onto the product just in time to see Valour looking like Edition 2019 a-gin.  I waiting 2 years for this?  Strike 3.

And now were in a post pandemic world with $2 a liter petrol, $8 a bag McCains chips at SuperStore and a soccer property which has underwhelmed since Day #1.  The Jets couldn't fill their building this season, not even close most nights so how's Valour going to do?  About as expected. 

Trying not to sound aggrieved though I may.  Just trying to, in my typical Cheeta fashion, paint the picture as I see it. 

All that said I have never doubted my belief that this franchise can become the league's flagship.  Not for one second.  It's going to take some doing (and undoing) but it's doable.  As much as WFC is their own worst enemy sometimes (as far as Valour is concerned) I'm liking more of what I'm seeing these days.   

   

 

 

All true, but the shorter version is that if they were a winning team they'd be supported well.

[Watchmen]

4 hours ago, jonovision said:

All true, but the shorter version is that if they were a winning team they'd be supported well.

If they were winning more, some else would be losing more and another market might be going through the same struggles. I realize this isn't what you're saying, but I do think at times people forget that not every market gets to have a winning team.  A hard core group of fans will be out win or lose and a large number of casual fans will only come out if they're winning, and it really doesn't matter what market it is.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

5 hours ago, jonovision said:

All true, but the shorter version is that if they were a winning team they'd be supported well.

OK, but gas and McCain's chips cost much the same in Halifax and they don't have a winning team either. At that point, I think you also need to look at contrasts in game day experience and in expectation levels on league quality relative to the strongest leagues in the world in markets that are used to having an NHL team rather than junior hockey.

[Cheeta]

10 hours ago, jonovision said:

All true, but the shorter version is that if they were a winning team they'd be supported well.

100%.  No argument there.  Do think it's bigger than that though.  I'm suggesting Valour are victims of circumstance due to the pandemic whilst also suggesting a percentage of this city's footie fans aren't going to tolerate the teams institutional shortcomings.  And those "impatient" footie fans are numerous enough to matter. 

Fellow at work took his old dad to a match last fall, enjoyed himself.  Corporate ticket, got to spend the afternoon with one of the sons and grandsons but he's not coming back until the football is worth watching.  Certainly not at $12 beers with Valour dressing 14 players and having to drive to the other side of town to do it. 

And he can watch 1-nil football until he's dead and be happy.  Already has been much of his life.  But he know what he's looking at.  LOL, or likes to think he does. 

Shrug. Takes time to build a team.  They're getting there.  I think for all the disconnect I've seen so far that this 2022 addition is easily the best footballing Valour has put out.  The schedule is 500% better than every, CPL has the right idea there.  The OneSoccer website finally looks like their making an effort.  It's getting better.

He'll be back.  

        

[jonovision]

7 hours ago, Watchmen said:

If they were winning more, some else would be losing more and another market might be going through the same struggles. I realize this isn't what you're saying, but I do think at times people forget that not every market gets to have a winning team.  A hard core group of fans will be out win or lose and a large number of casual fans will only come out if they're winning, and it really doesn't matter what market it is.

A difference is that the CPL is a new league. Even sad sacks and the Jets and Bombers have had enough of a tradition of winning in the past to develop a core group of fans. When you start with such a terrible season as 2019, followed by a pandemic, so many people have never had a reason or a chance to come on board.

That's part of the reason why I made jokes about pro-Forge conspiracies: a dynasty right from day 1 of a brand new league is not good for the health of that league. Glad to see the torch being passed and the wealth (of success, not money...) being spread a bit.

Edited May 19, 2022 by jonovision

[youllneverwalkalone]

I understand Valour have had some specific issues on the pitch but, overall, the quality of the play in the CPL certainly exceeds the budget on players and coaches. It probably comes nowhere near the ticket/concession prices, but there is a cost to being an early adopter.

I also felt a bit swindled on that One Soccer subscription, although I brushed it off as a misunderstanding at the time. I did get great value in jerseys the first two years at Pacific, although this year they prevented the selling of tickets -which isn't great for an out-of-towner.

We've always been turning up before it was time to turn up, and look the CNTs now. Same can be true with the CPL I think. But, as I've learned, it could certainly take 35 years lol.

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I understand Valour have had some specific issues on the pitch but, overall, the quality of the play in the CPL certainly exceeds the budget on players and coaches.

For most people I'd guess it's largely about perception. Pay the same players double the money, and put another division of professional soccer below the Premier League and suddenly it's worth paying the money to watch these guys. Virtually every single person I've brought to a game has asked about salaries or if it was professional. That's why I think it's so silly when people suggest scaling back to become more sustainable. The level of interest will drop if we scale back even further

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

...That's why I think it's so silly when people suggest scaling back to become more sustainable. The level of interest will drop if we scale back even further

Leaving aside for now the more critical aspects of why the league ultimately does need to be sustainable, I'm not sure that's really the case if it was still being marketed as Canada's top domestic league. The sort of people who are interested now are still likely to be interested if there are regional conferences rather than a balanced national schedule and fewer imports like Tobias Warschewski, and the sort of people that will only watch the English Premiership or Serie A will also keep doing their thing regardless.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot