CPL General

[Cblake]

23 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

They actually drew a fairly reasonable crowd when they played the Impact on a weeknight in the Canadian Championship in 2019. Plenty of people in the GTA's wider soccer community are no doubt already well aware that they exist in other words, they are just not particularly interested in paying money to watch this level of soccer live:

Nothing new there. Since cable TV kicked in to provide extra entertainment options and interest in the NSL waned that same state of affairs has been applicable to the Blizzard and Rockets in the CSL (a visit from the 86ers sometimes drew a fairly reasonable crowd), the Lynx in the USL and various NSL/CNSL/CPSL/CSL teams.

I was at the match and it was  that week York dropped ticket prices to try and draw people in. Also because it was Montreal lots of the TFC supporter group types came up to support York and give the Impact a big FU. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Wouldn't be surprised if they papered the house a bit for that one as well just to get people through the door to see that the soccer is at a very decent standard. Main point I was making is that many of the core soccer community people who are most likely to be interested do already know that they exist because they were definitely doing the obvious strategies on marketing a new pro soccer team like targeting youth clubs for group sales through the local soccer associations.

Also worth bearing in mind that being a TFC fan and a York United fan isn't mutually exclusive, so playing an MLS team would have made even some of TFC's more passive fanbase aware of their existence, which again is a case of the people most likely to be interested finding out about their existence even if mainstream media coverage was less than stellar. Some of Y9's worst crowds in 2019 were when they went up against TFC games, which points strongly to there being significant overlap in active support.

[QBCS]

What size would you compare the CPL to? In relation to other leagues around North America? The NLL? Im not much of a CPL fan because of location.

[red card]

On 5/9/2022 at 5:16 PM, Ansem said:

CPL has to find a way to get mainstream attention and at the very least get on the news and more accessible to casuals.

Whenever the league was on CBC, they did have strong viewership. It starts there but CSB gave it all to Onesoccer so they dont have that much of a say on the media side. It's imperative that Rogers and Bell carries Onesoccer on their sport channel bundles.

I'd say that mainstream media exposure will be the new commissioner biggest task. The clubs and players and the pitch can only do so much without mainstream media. 

Casuals have that name for a reason... They don't go out of their ways to find you, you have to get to them - the league's biggest challenge as of now.

CBC ratings were all below 100k in 2019 & 2020. Ranged from a low of 11k to a couple of matches at 86k. 

TV also wasn't the driver for Canadian MLS teams either. Other than the 2-3 years TFC was good, their tv ratings were mostly at the upper end of CPL on CBC.

Instead, it was the TFC matchday experience produced by the supporter groups and the club that drove more interest. For the CPL, only HFX is on par with early days TFC. Cavalry is getting there. PFC can be there after the camera angle issue is resolved.

Forge, ATO & Valour can be there with some makeovers and bigger crowds. They could be there already if they were in smaller stadiums. So, they need to enclose the ends, cover up the unused seats and find other ways to make it more intimate. 

York has had missteps and FCE never has understood what a football matchday entails.

 

[m-g-williams]

Random thought: I wish the CPL would change their "highlights" section for each match to be more like what the Canada Soccer site does. It looks so much more professional on the latter, and I personally find it a lot easier to read. 

https://canpl.ca/matchcentre/7v9u5fh5vipqr6u1sv48vh2j8/stats 

https://canadasoccer.com/events/championship-match/?matchId=3212

[Kent]

On 5/9/2022 at 11:49 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

...then when they both were interested in stepping up to USL's D3 pro level, Victor Montagliani & Co imposed a moratorium on further Canadian entries at that level in USSF sanctioned leagues and the momentum that was building stalled. My understanding is that spectator interest in Forest City London has fallen away to a large extent in an L1O context, unfortunately, but I haven't been in London much in the summer months in recent years to witness that first hand.

And now thanks in part to that moratorium, Victoria (metro) now has a pro team in the CPL that in 2019 and so far in 2022 averaged over 3000 fans per game. That's a nice improvement over the record 2412 for a single game that Kingston mentioned.

London also has a pro league to aspire to get to if they have what it takes.

I'd call that a win for Canadian soccer.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

The league needs to still be around 10 years from now for it to be a win. Right now one out of eight is on life support and another six are well short of the crowd levels that are likely to be needed to be sustainable with the economic model that has been implemented. The strategy that is being followed is therefore inherently higher risk than using the USL structure that is pretty much guaranteed to still be around 10 or 20 years from now would have been.

Beyond that from a London, Ont sort of perspective there is the added angle that USL provides two different pro levels making it possible for markets that don't have a 6000 seat soccer specific stadium as a piece of municipal infrastructure and are unlikely to turn aspiration into reality on that any time soon to still have a way in to pro level soccer.

 

[Ansem]

What's wrong with L1O?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

As things stand at the moment it's basically an amateur league watched by no more than friends and family in most cases.

[Ansem]

You need to move on from USL - they aren't coming back and it's getting tiresome to read the same thing over and over again.

L10/League 1 Canada are trying to elevate the D3 tier with Pro/rel being a start and clubs signing stronger players. Why not talk about ideas/discuss ways L1 Canada can upgrade?

Edited May 12, 2022 by Ansem

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

L1O at best is going to be the equivalent of PDL if it sticks to a short season format with most of the teams trying to remain NCAA scholarship compatible. That isn't the same as the USSF D3 sanctioning level that FC London were seriously considering when the moratorium was imposed so it's well short of what's potentially possible in some cities.

All of this wouldn't be a problem in a London, Ont context if CanPL didn't have its D1 fixation and was happy to do something broadly equivalent to the USSF D3 sanctioning standard rather than USSF D2 on stadium requirements.

What's actually happening in the here and now is reflected in this sort of rumoured policy where expansion is concerned that would rule out Guelph as a possibility despite the stadium from last night looking not too bad if they could have unmarked fieldturf like York Lions:

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Bison44]

54 minutes ago, Ansem said:

What's wrong with L1O?

"As things stand at the moment it's basically an amateur league watched by no more than friends and family in most cases."

 

I think that describes the MLS Next pro as well from what I have seen of the CDN teams. 

[Ivan]

The Guelph University field actually looked pretty good in person.  The lines were still visible, but way better than I expected.  The metal bench seats were definitely uncomfortable toward the end though!😄

[Ansem]

55 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

L1O at best is going to be the equivalent of PDL if it sticks to a short season format with most of the teams trying to remain NCAA scholarship compatible. That isn't the same as the USSF D3 sanctioning level that FC London were seriously considering when the moratorium was imposed so it's well short of what's potentially possible in some cities.

You'd be right if you said BCL1 who won't get included in next year Can Champ according to some due to a lack of games. Otherwise, L10 & PLSQ and MLS Next Pro are pretty comparable.

Matched played 2022

League 1 Ontario : 21

PLSQ : 22

League 1 BC : 12


PDL/USL League 2 : 14

USL League 1 : 27

MLS Next Pro : 24

 

Also, Pro/Rel (which PLSQ is talking about now) - will help separate the strong and the weaker clubs to keep a consistent level of play at D3 level.

Lastly, in Soccer Quebec - the president was talking about elevating D3 to higher standards on all metrics with L1O (2020 interview). This is in with the CSA wanting to emulate the CHL. In that regard, yes - D3 needs to play way more games in better facilities with higher budgets and they are working towards that goal.

Why not support that endeavour instead of wishing for USL to come back which would actually be an obstacle to their goals? If everyone else can build their pyramid from scratch, why can't we?

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

All of this wouldn't be a problem in a London, Ont context if CanPL didn't have its D1 fixation

 

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

was happy to do something broadly equivalent to the USSF D3 sanctioning standard rather than USSF D2 on stadium requirements.

Live game experience + marketing + overall presentation matters when you're trying to build a fanbase and draw fans. With the standards you're talking about, you'll get the footy fans to go but casuals will be turned off. If CPL wants to be D1 and draw like one, it has to act and look like one as much as possible from the onset, kind of like what MLS is doing/have done rather quickly.

Also - we've had years of USSF D3 in Canada, why would the league try to emulate the same model and expect a different result? This is where I see that you're being disingenuous because D1 opened the doors to continental competition. This is a key tool to get more attention earlier on. As a D3 league, they'd never be in CONCACAF League nor get 2 CCL berth.

It's not "arrogance, nationalistic BS or a fixation" - it's sound business decision making.

 

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

What's actually happening in the here and now is reflected in this sort of rumoured policy where expansion is concerned that would rule out Guelph as a possibility despite the stadium from last night looking not too bad if they could have unmarked fieldturf like York Lions:

Logically, I'd say that the league is looking at the Waterloo Region as a whole - not just Guelph. Makes more sense to pursue the right owners with the right stadium in Waterloo or Kitchener to implement a club representing the whole region than just focus on Guelph.

The scope (business-wise) is different.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Ivan said:

The Guelph University field actually looked pretty good in person.  The lines were still visible, but way better than I expected.  The metal bench seats were definitely uncomfortable toward the end though!😄

As I pointed out above - this is good news and a good first sample of a Waterloo CPL club who would draw from Guelph as well

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

There potentially could have been a Waterloo team at launch (there was a group interested in having a K-W team and lthere was lots of fan group activity for a while) but Wilfred Laurier's stadium (comparable to Guelph's last night) wasn't viewed as acceptable for CanPL.

[Aird25]

Can we try to make visiting this space a little less like having your teeth drilled? It's always the same bloody conversation on numerous different threads

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Can we try to make visiting this space a little less like having your teeth drilled? It's always the same bloody conversation on numerous different threads

You're right - let's move away from USL and using university stadium talks.

I'd like to read people thoughts on Kitchener-Waterloo as a market, did the Guelph game convinced you?

[CDNFootballer]

5 hours ago, Ansem said:

I'd like to read people thoughts on Kitchener-Waterloo as a market, did the Guelph game convinced you?

I think some are making too much of a one off game. The crowd was excellent but there needs to be significant sustained attendance figures for the team for a season or two imo.

[red card]

Wheels thinks Guelph is a blueprint for expansion.

...Guelph provides a further blueprint towards league expansion.  Attendance was very good Tuesday, better than some CanPL markets, and was played at a facility compatible with a professional level broadcast. Canadian cities with established University facilities and established community engagement should be the target for Canadian Premier League as the league continues to grow.

Potential ownership groups should be pursuing partnerships with deep-pocked University institutions to renovate, refurbish or invest in facilities that can be used by both the professional soccer club as well as varsity sports.

The fit to scale model works between CanPL ambition and the needs for University sport. Partnership between club and institution can alleviate investment concerns in building and maintaining suitable facilities, providing better facilities for the community. University grounds are crucially fit for broadcast. Television considerations are a must, and building that infrastructure at any new facility comes at a substantial cost. And with University cities comes an established sporting communities who support local and back their own.

In Ontario alone, cities like Guelph, Waterloo, London, and Kingston immediately fit the bill.

http://onesoccer.ca/a/wheeler-wednesdays-a-few-thoughts-on-jayden-nelson-no-goal-carducci-whitecaps-canmnt

[Bison44]

If Wheels thinks its a good idea.......it makes me sour on the whole deal.  

[jonovision]

1 hour ago, red card said:

Wheels thinks Guelph is a blueprint for expansion.

...Guelph provides a further blueprint towards league expansion.  Attendance was very good Tuesday, better than some CanPL markets, and was played at a facility compatible with a professional level broadcast. Canadian cities with established University facilities and established community engagement should be the target for Canadian Premier League as the league continues to grow.

Potential ownership groups should be pursuing partnerships with deep-pocked University institutions to renovate, refurbish or invest in facilities that can be used by both the professional soccer club as well as varsity sports.

The fit to scale model works between CanPL ambition and the needs for University sport. Partnership between club and institution can alleviate investment concerns in building and maintaining suitable facilities, providing better facilities for the community. University grounds are crucially fit for broadcast. Television considerations are a must, and building that infrastructure at any new facility comes at a substantial cost. And with University cities comes an established sporting communities who support local and back their own.

In Ontario alone, cities like Guelph, Waterloo, London, and Kingston immediately fit the bill.

http://onesoccer.ca/a/wheeler-wednesdays-a-few-thoughts-on-jayden-nelson-no-goal-carducci-whitecaps-canmnt

A major issue with this idea is that there are few of these kinds of cities (university facilities, decent population, say 100k+) outside of Ontario. None in Alberta, none in Manitoba, none in the Maritimes. 

[Bison44]

5 minutes ago, jonovision said:

A major issue with this idea is that there are few of these kinds of cities (university facilities, decent population, say 100k+) outside of Ontario. None in Alberta, none in Manitoba, none in the Maritimes. 

Wheels never got that far, he is still pitching a tent over having 5 more expansion teams in southern ontario.  

[jonovision]

5 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Wheels never got that far, he is still pitching a tent over having 5 more expansion teams in southern ontario.  

He may not be wrong -- Southern Ontario could probably support more teams at the CPL level. And a national league where two-thirds of the teams are from southern Ontario could be good for the game in Canada. But it would be bad for the non-Ontarian teams in the league.

[Bison44]

You'd still need deep pocket owners willing pony up expansion fee, coule million a year to run the club, probably soak up some big losses.  And if all we are looking for is University fields with bleachers, well lets get a team in Quebec and Sask ASAP eh??  Fill in those areas before we saturate the golden horseshoe.