CPL new teams speculation

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

If that was enough to make it work, we would be discussing the Winnipeg Fury's thirty-third season on here rather than the Valour's first. It took MLS expansion into Canada to make pro soccer finally work as an investment and for the mainstream media to take it seriously and MLS isn't going to suddenly leave.

The key to success is that the soccer on offer has to provide an entertainment product that fans want to actually pay to watch year after year. It will be interesting to see how fans in cities like Winnipeg and Calgary that have NHL and CFL teams and have largely ignored PDL as being too low quality respond to what will be on offer this summer.

 Regardless of whether there are going to be any MLS affiliations in future the quality of CanPL is still going to be very minor league in comparison to what soccer fans can easily access on cable or online nowadays, so it's difficult to predict what provides enough to capture the imagination of a viable fan base. Hopefully it will work. We'll find out over the next 12 months.

1. Logic fail. I'm not saying that is enough to make it work, I'm saying lack of it is enough to make it fail. In other words, it is a "necessary but not sufficient" condition for success.

2. (Sigh) I'm not saying MLS has to suddenly leave. I am saying that CPL cannot be percieved to be subservient to MLS.

3. I have largely ignored PDL and the reason is that they played their entire home season in about 3 weeks worth of back to back to back home matches and then disappeared onto the road not to be seen again until next season! I regarded that as a bit of a farce. The quality was not a problem.

4. Quality, quality, quality. I'm tired of hearing that. Watching football is an experience. It is a unique sport. So long as it isn't clearly Sunday Beer League, the quality will not matter. Hard core won't care and Joe Average won't notice. (Do CFL fans know the CFL is nowhere near the quality of the NFL, which is readily available on cable every weekend? Yup. Do they care? Nope.)

Edited February 24, 2019 by dsqpr

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Joe Average sometimes showed up to Fury games in 10,000+ numbers in response to freebies related to supermarket promotions and definitely did notice the lack of quality and didn't go back if it meant having to actually pay. CanPL have made the right moves to get fully pro rosters together in as low budget a way as possible. Hopefully the break even is low enough at this point to be sustainable with a significantly expanded hard core relative to the Fury era because I seriously doubt the Blue Bombers will run it at a large annual loss.

[JamboAl]

4 hours ago, dsqpr said:

Sure. I think we all know that the CPL project is high risk and needs to be done right or it will fail. So what does it have going for it? What will make it appeal to Joe Average Canadian sports fan? The fact that it is CANADIAN, that is what! It will be the Championship of Canada, and the place where we can watch promising Canadian youngsters develop. That is a major hook. To be seen as a development minor league for an American major league would besmirch the most important thing the CPL has going for it and the resulting apathy would be fatal.

What is the main difference between Man City and TFC? Only one of them is located in Canada! If you let TFC have even a hint of a "farm team" connection to CPL, you effectively establish MLS as the major league in Canada and CPL as a minor league and you are screwed. You do not have this perception problem with Man City.

Also, let us not downplay the way Canadians feel about the US. The fact of the matter is, even if MLS did not have any franchises located in Canada, CPL would still be significantly harmed by any perception of being subservient to an American league. Joe Average Canadian sports fan just would not like it. And in order to succeed, the league needs the support of Joe Average Canadian sports fan.

Thanks Doug.  I get your explanation and the concern of others about farm teams.  I would not be in favour of TFC B being set up within 2 hrs of the GTA .  

But if MLSE set up a team in Regina, for example, and called it Regina FC with an Chelsea-Vitesse Arnhem type link to TFC, would that still cross the line of unacceptability?  I wouldn't be surprised if the CPL has this hypothetical type of scenario pop up, for example: if the Saputos thought that Quebec City could work in CPL as long as the team had its own identity.      

Edited February 24, 2019 by JamboAl

[Copes]

On 2/23/2019 at 4:27 AM, matty said:

i'm not against an mls owner owning/funding a cpl team (various people own clubs all over the world. like isn't bob funding hfx on top of owning forge?) but there needs to be a hard line preventing their mls management from being overly involved with the cpl team and vice versa. i'm fine with stuff like graduating a coach or loaning a player to a team, those happen between teams with shared owners often, but excess/abuse shouldn't be allowed.

given the mls/canadian relationship, harsher restrictions should be in place

This is a solid perspective IMO. It's certainly mine in all of this. Off the top of my head, as an MLS fan, we have ownership groups of both NYCFC and NYRB who own other teams in other leagues. There is some operations coordination, no doubt, and you see coaches and players move from time to time, but the teams are their own entities and they all focus on winning their respective leagues. I'm more than okay with this, if this is how MLSE functions. 

The players, staff, etc. MUST be signed to the CPL club - not loaned from TFC II or something. Whatever the club is, it needs to be its own entity. 

I could survive that. It's about the only option I'd accept if MLSE wanted in.

[dyslexic nam]

9 minutes ago, Copes said:

This is a solid perspective IMO. It's certainly mine in all of this. Off the top of my head, as an MLS fan, we have ownership groups of both NYCFC and NYRB who own other teams in other leagues. There is some operations coordination, no doubt, and you see coaches and players move from time to time, but the teams are their own entities and they all focus on winning their respective leagues. I'm more than okay with this, if this is how MLSE functions. 

The players, staff, etc. MUST be signed to the CPL club - not loaned from TFC II or something. Whatever the club is, it needs to be its own entity. 

I could survive that. It's about the only option I'd accept if MLSE wanted in.

TBH, I don't see CPL accepting any other sort of scenario than this.  That is why I am okay with the idea.  MLSE is the biggest sports organization in the country.  Getting them behind CPL (with appropriate safeguards) would be a strong move. Throw in a Montreal CPL team and the possible joining of Ottawa, and the 10 team CPL would look strong as hell in year 2 or 3.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, JamboAl said:

Thanks Doug.  I get your explanation and the concern of others about farm teams.  I would not be in favour of TFC B being set up within 2 hrs of the GTA .  

But if MLSE set up a team in Regina, for example, and called it Regina FC with an Chelsea-Vitesse Arnhem type link to TFC, would that still cross the line of unacceptability?  I wouldn't be surprised if the CPL has this hypothetical type of scenario pop up, for example: if the Saputos thought that Quebec City could work in CPL as long as the team had its own identity.      

Well, you are watering it down as much as possible in that example.  The short answer is it depends on how it would be perceived generally, and whether subsequent actions such as sweetheart player transfer deals would betray the incestuous relationship. Personally, I would still be opposed because I think it would be playing with fire.

[C2SKI]

18 hours ago, Initial B said:

MLSE having a CPL team they own, or TFC loaning out dozens of players to CPL teams - what's the difference so long as Canadian talent is getting developed?

Players could see an MLS associated CPL team as a more direct path to a higher pay cheque. Thereby giving those teams a competitive advantage over other CPL teams. In a salary capped league (especially a cap this low) the prospect of moving on to a bigger pay cheque elsewhere is a very big factor. 

[Guest]

17 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Joe Average sometimes showed up to Fury games in 10,000+ numbers in response to freebies related to supermarket promotions and definitely did notice the lack of quality and didn't go back if it meant having to actually pay. CanPL have made the right moves to get fully pro rosters together in as low budget a way as possible. Hopefully the break even is low enough at this point to be sustainable with a significantly expanded hard core relative to the Fury era because I seriously doubt the Blue Bombers will run it at a large annual loss.

How do you know why Joe Average didn't go back in 1988 or whenever it was? Do you have some evidence or are you just making shit up?

[1996]

8 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

How do you know why Joe Average didn't go back in 1988 or whenever it was? Do you have some evidence or are you just making shit up?

They most likely didn’t go back because of the lack of quality but mainly because unfortunately at the time I don’t think soccer as s spectator sport  in Winnipeg was that popular among the general public, it was a different time . Things are a lot different now in most places right across Canada , therefore it’s a much better time to start a national league and the chances of a league working and growing are much better in these times.

Edited February 25, 2019 by 1996

[1996]

10 hours ago, dsqpr said:

Well, you are watering it down as much as possible in that example.  The short answer is it depends on how it would be perceived generally, and whether subsequent actions such as sweetheart player transfer deals would betray the incestuous relationship. Personally, I would still be opposed because I think it would be playing with fire.

In the early years of the MLS you had 2 or 3 owners who owned multiple teams and it was allowed because without those owners there would not have been an MLS, once the league got bigger those owners sold off their other teams to other owners, therefore , these multiple owners were needed until other owners came by who wanted teams. This might be what might be needed to get teams in other cities . An MLSE can come in establish a team in say London for a few years then maybe sell the team to a different owner once the. different owners see that a team in London for example can work. If MLSE or even a Saputo were to come in as owners and put teams in different cities other than Montreal or Toronto I see nothing wrong with this. Just put in a rule that players can’t go back and forth between the MLS team and the CPL team during the season and problem solved , if the MLS team wants a player who is lighting it up on their CPL team they must wait until the season is over before they could bring him to their MLS team. Just put in rules and problem solved.

Edited February 25, 2019 by 1996

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, 1996 said:

They most likely didn’t go back because of the lack of quality but mainly because unfortunately at the time I don’t think soccer as s spectator sport  in Winnipeg was that popular among the general public, it was a different time . Things are a lot different now in most places right across Canada , therefore it’s a much better time to start a national league and the chances of a league working and growing are much better in these times.

I think your second reason is far more likely: that most people just weren't interested and many only attended as a cheap novelty and wouldn't have been back at regular price even if it had been EPL standard. But that is just speculation too. The truth is we will never know and in any case it has no bearing on CPL today. These are indeed different times.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, 1996 said:

In the early years of the MLS you had 2 or 3 owners who owned multiple teams and it was allowed because without those owners there would not have been an MLS, once the league got bigger those owners sold off their other teams to other owners, therefore , these multiple owners were needed until other owners came by who wanted teams. This might be what might be needed to get teams in other cities . An MLSE can come in establish a team in say London for a few years then maybe sell the team to a different owner once the. different owners see that a team in London for example can work. If MLSE or even a Saputo were to come in as owners and put teams in different cities other than Montreal or Toronto I see nothing wrong with this. Just put in a rule that players can’t go back and forth between the MLS team and the CPL team during the season and problem solved , if the MLS team wants a player who is lighting it up on their CPL team they must wait until the season is over before they could bring him to their MLS team. Just put in rules and problem solved.

The early MLS owners did not face a credibility issue with regard to another league.

Part of the CPL business model is to develop young players and then sell them. Any player movement out of CPL must bring an appropriate transfer fee, for both business and credibility reasons.

Edited February 25, 2019 by dsqpr

[Cheeta]

45 minutes ago, 1996 said:

They most likely didn’t go back because of the lack of quality but mainly because unfortunately at the time I don’t think soccer as s spectator sport  in Winnipeg was that popular among the general public, it was a different time . Things are a lot different now in most places right across Canada , therefore it’s a much better time to start a national league and the chances of a league working and growing are much better in these times.

1st part, disagree somewhat.  A lot of things worked against the original CSL, some of it quite outside their control, others entirely within but that's a million word topic all on its own but on the whole I believe, know, the market was there.

2nd part agreed.  2019 is a more favourable environment for a lot of reasons.  Different, a lot different, but on the whole I have to say it's a far more favourable environment for a footie league to be successful.

[1996]

But in the early MLS years they faced the graveyard of soccer league pasts. Up until the start of the MLS all the other leagues that had come before it had folded most notably the old NASL . Therefore , the MLS just needed owners with sustainability and that’s why they allowed multiple teams owned by the same owners . However , getting back to players , rules can also be put into place that an MLSE owned CPL team would have to pay a transfer fee to the CPL if they outright signed a player from their CPL team to their MLS team . Rules can be put into place that will make it a win win for the CPL if say an MLSE or a Saputo wanted to buy a team and put it in the CPL.

Edited February 25, 2019 by 1996

[Ansem]

I don't think MLSE should own a CPL team. The conflict of interest is flagrant.

Furthermore, they are reiterating that they want guys they have under contract a place to play. Ok, loan them is you want but I'm against a CPL team created for that purpose. It's just putting lipstick on a pig and calling it something else...but we're going back to a different way of saying the same thing as their 1st pitch...which I'd like to remind was declined. 

MLSE must compromise here. What makes sense is creating a separate entity to manage the CPL team. Have Rogers and Bell (75% of MLSE) be the money behind it and cut out Kilmer Sports and Tanenbaum. The new entity is managed independently from MLSE with CPL approving whoever is in charge. 

CPL isn't in a position where they are forced to compromise. They have a vision for the league and a plan that shouldn't be compromised just because MLSE wants in on their terms. They are the one needing to compromise 

[-Hammer-]

Here is the big thing, MLSE is owned by Bell and Rogers. At some point you will want to deal with them regarding a TV deal unless you are putting all your eggs in the live streaming basket, unless CBC decides to get back into sports. You want to keep that door open, but that said, you simply can't let the fox into the hen house. MLSE has a vested interest in making money and ensuring competition to TFC doesn't take off, as it will not only draw fans away from the big club, but potentially force a ticket price reduction and honestly reduce the ratings on their already lacklustre TV ratings. Nevermind that you suddenly have an owner who is privy to every deal the league may make, and has the potential to undermine the league itself.

If I'm the CanPL, I tell them for now, it is way too soon. When the league has enough stability where two rogue owners can't potentially spell doom for the league, it's a different conversation, but for now I would say it should be a hard no. Now, ten years down the road, with franchises across the country, and potential to break into the big markets, it's a much different conversation. Then that conversation becomes "Look, we'll let you in, but this league isn't a farm for MLS or TFC. Draconian and limited loaning and transfer options to your MLS club if you want in." 

Edited February 25, 2019 by -Hammer-

[Ansem]

58 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

If I'm the CanPL, I tell them for now, it is way too soon. When the league has enough stability where two rogue owners can't potentially spell doom for the league, it's a different conversation, but for now I would say it should be a hard no. Now, ten years down the road, with franchises across the country, and potential to break into the big markets, it's a much different conversation. Then that conversation becomes "Look, we'll let you in, but this league isn't a farm for MLS or TFC. Draconian and limited loaning and transfer options to your MLS club if you want in." 

In 10 years, the league should be thinking about CPL2 (2029). At that moment, I welcome them with open arms in CPL II.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

5 hours ago, Cheeta said:

1st part, disagree somewhat.  A lot of things worked against the original CSL, some of it quite outside their control, others entirely within but that's a million word topic all on its own but on the whole I believe, know, the market was there...

The subtext to this is whether they are in a strong enough position to spurn interest from MLS I/Os. It was a huge struggle for them to put 7 franchises together. If they had 10 right now with three MLS affiliates on board they would be in much better shape to weather the coming storm once aspiration is replaced with reality and some franchises no doubt will start to do well in an 86ers sort of way, while others start to consistently struggle because somebody inevitably has to finish bottom of the standings and some of the cities are not as strong as some of the others in terms of having a local soccer scene to draw players from that are ready to step in and contribute.

The original CSL made a similar decision to exclude what would probably have been stable franchises by being determined to exclude ethnic team names. If the pre-existing Toronto Italia (previous pro level history in the ECPSL) and Toronto Croatia (previous pro level history in the NASL and CPSL) NSL franchises had been on board as they wanted to be rather than the North York Rockets it's far from impossible that the CSL could have found a way to make it through the recession of the early 90s by having a solid core of franchises in the Quebec-Windsor corridor plus Winnipeg and Vancouver and lived to fight another day when soccer in North America started to grow stronger again after the 1994 World Cup. Not saying history has to repeat itself but it definitely would be good to see more of a spirit of inclusive compromise this time around, because it's absence and the squabbling over Ottawa definitely provides a feeling of deja vu.

As more of an aside than anything else, what people seem to forget about the CSL era is that it followed on the footsteps of the original NASL era when large crowds with plenty of Joe Average types (for example, Tulsa wasn't exactly renowned as a soccer hotbed before the Roughnecks arrived) did show up to watch what was from Pele's arrival onwards a very high quality league. Attempts in its aftermath in both the US and Canada to try to draw fans with a significantly lower quality entertainment product generally failed dismally, because Joe Average does notice the difference. The CSL also launched in an era when the post-WWII immigration wave in a Canadian context had little or no access to soccer in broadcasting terms and were still showing up in large enough numbers to sustain what were effectively semi-pro clubs not just in an NSL context in Toronto but in a lot of other cities as well where amateur status was officially retained as the provincial cups and national championship were viewed as the big prize. For a variety of reasons the latent fanbase for the sport that was definitely out there at the time didn't show up for the CSL. Nothing should ever be taken for granted in that regard until loyalties to teams become deeply ingrained after multiple generations.

Edited February 25, 2019 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Macksam]

For BBTB’s argument to hold weight, he has to provide some evidence both the Caps and Impact were willing to put affiliates into the CPL like TFC was but I don’t recall even rumours of that being considered. Also, for that to be comparable to the original CSL with regards to not letting in Croatia and Italia, it would mean MLS having current affiliates in the USL that are drawing well, which also isn’t the case. TFC 2 don’t draw well and both WC 2 and Impact 2 have been discontinued. How much better would they have lasted in the CPL? They were already branded as reserve teams. Obviously, the only thing bringing those types of operations into the fold would do is drag the image of the CPL down. I doubt the current clubs in the mix would be doing as well with regards to membership numbers. I don’t get why he keeps harping on about it. It’s not happening, the league isn’t going in the direction he wanted it to. He was wrong about all his speculation to the build up of this whole thing.

Get the fuck over it.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Macksam

[MtlMario]

I wonder why MLSE would want to open another pizza shop on the same street when they already have the best pizza shop (according to their president)?

[Gopherbashi]

Let MLSE show that they can run a well-attended, independent affiliate in USL1 first, and then we can talk about letting MLSE run a well-attended, independent affiliate in CPL.

[dyslexic nam]

2 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

Let MLSE show that they can run a well-attended, independent affiliate in USL1 first, and then we can talk about letting MLSE run a well-attended, independent affiliate in CPL.

I get the reasoning, but that tactic would have the spin-off effect of strengthening Fury's case for staying in USL.  Not that I am really in favour of forcing them into CPL (I am starting to think they can piss away in USL forever if that is what they want) but it would strengthen the idea that Canadian clubs can freely choose between the two leagues. 

[tyler453]

5 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I get the reasoning, but that tactic would have the spin-off effect of strengthening Fury's case for staying in USL.  Not that I am really in favour of forcing them into CPL (I am starting to think they can piss away in USL forever if that is what they want) but it would strengthen the idea that Canadian clubs can freely choose between the two leagues. 

Especially if a CPL club is competitive against Ottawa in the Third Q round of the Canadian Championship, I suspect Ottawa will be forced in by CONCACAF. They will see no reason for a team that is of equal quality to play in another country's league.

[dyslexic nam]

I think MLSE is seeing CPL's momentum and is, for the first time, genuinely worried about what it is going to do to TFC's revenue.  Yes, TFC will still be the biggest game in town.  But there are a shitload of kids outside the GTA who currently buy TFC merch.  I see it at the local soccer games - kids with TFC hats and balls. Or hoodies.  Or whatever.  These are kids who are exposed to MLS as the Canadian footy context by default.  It may be the same with Impact in other areas (maybe NB) and VWC (in the Western provinces). 

But in a couple of months, millions of these kids outside the 3 major markets will have a local - or more local - team to root for.  The soccer mom from Halifax will probably buy her kid the Wanderers short instead of the TFC shirt as part of his birthday present.  That will happen to some degree in every CPL market and nearby areas.  It won't cripple TFC by any means - they will still be a juggernaut.  But I guarantee they have guys doing projections and feeling a bit nervous about their previously secure revenue streams.

In the context of their possible participation in CPL, this has two opposite implications:

- they will want a piece of that pie (good)

- they will have a baked-in interest about the league not growing to rival them in terms of support (the bad)

I still think  a team could work and be structured in such a way that it accomplishes the  first goal (and thereby helps the league grow) without giving room to influence the second.  As others have pointed out, the league isn't in a position where it has to take whatever shitty offer MLSE might make - they can play hardball and make sure that any arrangement works first and foremost for the league's benefit. 

[Keegan]

The best scenario for Canadian soccer and everyone involved is if a CPL2 is created and the 3 MLS teams can have B squads that are unable to promote. 

Anything else is bad business, for CPL at least.