CPL new teams speculation

[Impactsupporter]

1 hour ago, Shortdutchcanuck said:

Check out @CplTransfers’s Tweet:

Not sure if this rumour has any validity but Oakville has been a rock-solid L1O franchise and might be an underrated CanPL possibility.  Not sure of the league wants/can sustain teams in Hamilton, York, Oakville, and Mississauga but you never know.

One great thing about CanPL is it allows semi-pro clubs with solid owners and big aspirations a chance to realize those aspirations.

But it will always come back to the fundamental question : if places like Oakville (or Brampton, Windsor, Niagara, London, Grand River, Goderich)get into the CPL even if there is to be a supposed 2nd division(I presume national), can they afford to travel coast to coast???  Or will they find the travel costs too much and prefer to stay down in L1O, being a club team that develops and showcases players to transfer to CPL or MLS or Europe??

Just a thought.

[Viruk42]

4 minutes ago, Impactsupporter said:

But it will always come back to the fundamental question : if places like Oakville (or Brampton, Windsor, Niagara, London, Grand River, Goderich)get into the CPL even if there is to be a supposed 2nd division(I presume national), can they afford to travel coast to coast???  Or will they find the travel costs too much and prefer to stay down in L1O, being a club team that develops and showcases players to transfer to CPL or MLS or Europe??

Just a thought.

Assuming CPL goes towards pro/rel at some point, I think we would ideally have a national top level and then a CHL-like three region second level, in order to reduce those travel costs but also enable the league to fill markets that might not otherwise get filled, like a Thunder Bay, Medicine Hat, or even a Corner Brook.

[dyslexic nam]

15 minutes ago, Viruk42 said:

Assuming CPL goes towards pro/rel at some point, I think we would ideally have a national top level and then a CHL-like three region second level, in order to reduce those travel costs but also enable the league to fill markets that might not otherwise get filled, like a Thunder Bay, Medicine Hat, or even a Corner Brook.

I am not too familiar with other countries' lower leagues, but I assume this is a common feature of many lower divisions to avoid excessive travel costs.  It might not be the norm in some D2 leagues because many of them would still have decent revenue streams, but at some point I assume most/all tiered leagues would become regional.  For CPL, given the probable budgets and daunting geography, implementing this mechanism at D2 would make lots of sense. 

[Shortdutchcanuck]

32 minutes ago, Impactsupporter said:

But it will always come back to the fundamental question : if places like Oakville (or Brampton, Windsor, Niagara, London, Grand River, Goderich)get into the CPL even if there is to be a supposed 2nd division(I presume national), can they afford to travel coast to coast???  Or will they find the travel costs too much and prefer to stay down in L1O, being a club team that develops and showcases players to transfer to CPL or MLS or Europe??

Just a thought.

Agree fully.  Most mid-market clubs won't be able to afford travel costs.  (Although I don't agree with putting London, KWC, Brampton in that group, they have plenty of population to draw from relative to other Canadian cities like Victoria or Halifax).

My point is, there may be a few mid-to-small market teams eventually that buck this trend, as there are in many countries.  Just need the perfect storm of ambitious ownership, strong local identity and support, and a well-run organization.

Oakville may or may not be that club but I find it interesting they seem to have some ambition.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

38 minutes ago, Impactsupporter said:

But it will always come back to the fundamental question : if places like Oakville (or Brampton, Windsor, Niagara, London, Grand River, ....)get into the CPL even if there is to be a supposed 2nd division(I presume national), can they afford to travel coast to coast??

Why would they not be able to if Victoria and Halifax are expected to be able to do it? Those are all with Goderich deleted larger markets in population terms than Saskatoon, who are being treated as a viable possibility.

[Senorpopps]

Oakville and Burlington combined must be close to or just over 400,000 - especially with the influx of immigrants into the country since 2016, when both cities combined were just below 400,000 per the census. A team between those two cities prob could support a team, even jam packed between Forge FC and the 2 hyped potential markets of KW and Miss. Is it just me or does anyone else think Ontario could support a pro league in itself? Way cheaper travel plans to ...

[Stouffvillain]

1 hour ago, Viruk42 said:

Assuming CPL goes towards pro/rel at some point, I think we would ideally have a national top level and then a CHL-like three region second level, in order to reduce those travel costs but also enable the league to fill markets that might not otherwise get filled, like a Thunder Bay, Medicine Hat, or even a Corner Brook.

Your example of the CHL is a good one as it shows that the idea, while not mainstream, is not foreign to sports fans in Canada.  England is a great example where all of the semi-pro leagues funnel into the National League. 

Nation League

National League North ----- National League South

Northern Premier League ----- Southern Premier League ----- Isthmian League

Below here there are 3 or 4 levels as well that feed into the leagues above.  

The CPL could easily mimic that if the demand and ownership is there.

CPL

CPL2 West ---- CPL2 East

Provincial leagues such as L1O and PSQL

[Keegan]

1 hour ago, Viruk42 said:

Assuming CPL goes towards pro/rel at some point, I think we would ideally have a national top level and then a CHL-like three region second level, in order to reduce those travel costs but also enable the league to fill markets that might not otherwise get filled, like a Thunder Bay, Medicine Hat, or even a Corner Brook.

This would be the way to go for sure and then some sort of memorial cup type tournament to see who promotes?  That would be wild. 

[Viruk42]

40 minutes ago, Keegan said:

This would be the way to go for sure and then some sort of memorial cup type tournament to see who promotes?  That would be wild. 

I hadn't even thought of that aspect of things, but I am 100% down. It's too bad that they couldn't replicate the number of 8 or 9 games in ~10 days side of the memorial cup!

But more seriously, could take the last place team in CPL-1 and the top teams from each CPL-2 division, random draw to do "semi-finals" and then the winners play for the spot in CPL-1. 

(I should add that I'm well aware this is a little ways off and that other countries do this, I'm just used to it being farther down the pyramid than the 2nd tier, considering in England at least it's not until the 6th tier)

[Initial B]

9 hours ago, Viruk42 said:

Assuming CPL goes towards pro/rel at some point, I think we would ideally have a national top level and then a CHL-like three region second level, in order to reduce those travel costs but also enable the league to fill markets that might not otherwise get filled, like a Thunder Bay, Medicine Hat, or even a Corner Brook.

I've been giving this way too much thought and building possible future CPL Pro-rel frameworks on spreadsheets. The problem with having single table Div 1 and regional Div 2 is figuring out how to keep who goes up/down without eventually mucking up and unbalancing the geographical areas while also keeping a balanced schedule. Having an East-West Div 2 split would be easiest, but it doesn't balance out very well for travel and population. What seems to work best in my simulations is to have 3 regional groupings (in the West, Ontario, and East) because that matches roughly both populated geographical area and percentage of the national population +/- 10%. It would look something similar to what CONCACAF Nations League is structured like.

If you structure each region to have 5 Div 1 teams, 8 Div 2 teams, and any number of Div 3 teams divided into sub-regions, You could have pro-rel at the end of each 28-game season. Div 2 clubs would only play home and away games twice against each team in their region. At Div 1, the clubs would play home and away against every other Div 1 club from the three regions. At the end of the season, the bottom Div 1 club in each region would swap places with the top Div 2 club in their region. This would mean 3 of 15 Div 1 teams (20%) would be replaced each season, which is about as high a percentage as you would want to maximize competitiveness without compromising league stability.

Although the three regional Div 1 Tables would be used to determine who gets pro-rel'd, the teams would also be part of a single Div 1 National Table to determine who is the CPL champion and for apportioning additional Concacaf League or CCL slots to the teams that top the single table. Each week there would be one Div 1 club with a bye, but those would be useful at points in the season where teams had midweek international or Voyageur Cup matches, giving them a bit of a breather. 

The bottom Div 2 team in each region could be replaced with the best Div 3 team (by whatever method the Div 3 League chooses which team is best - this level will be the most fluid in format and structure). However, the winning team would have to meet the Promotion Criteria (say, a 1500-seat, restricted access stadium and year-round Front Office) or else the Div 2/3 pro-rel for that region doesn't occur.

I imagine that there would be a couple of teams that would perennially be in Div 1 (*cough*Hamilton*cough*) because they would have the most resources - our equivalent of Arsenal and Man U. Some would end up mid-table and some would bounce between Div 1 and Div 2. Others would be happy being just Div 2, but their skill levels will increase year over year as they're exposed to the skills of the teams that had been playing Div 1 the previous season. The same would happen in Div 3 with the Div 2 teams that get relegated. Eventually, there might be a Div 3 club that finds an owner with ambition and Canada will have it's own ladder-climbing club story to match those told elsewhere in the world. 

It would also work in the future if the Canadian MLS clubs ever wanted to join the CPL - when they were ready, each would join one of the regional structures to balance the league quality. 

Edited February 13, 2019 by Initial B
added additional information on what happens at Div 3.

[Viruk42]

49 minutes ago, Initial B said:

At the end of the season, the bottom Div 1 club in each region would swap places with the top Div 2 club in their region. This would mean 3 of 15 Div 1 teams (20%) would be replaced each season, which is about as high a percentage as you would want to maximize competitiveness without compromising league stability.

I fully acknowledge there are issues with having a second level that has regional divisions with respect to pro/rel, but I also admit I wouldn't want it to be the way you describe it - I mean, it would be entirely possible that the 5th best team in a league of 15 would get relegated because it's the lowest in its region. Sure, the odds might be slim, but it could happen, and the odds are less slim that the team might be, say, 10th. I can't imagine it would look great to have a team relegated while 3 teams below it are not. 

You are suggesting that CPL-1 would have an odd number of teams, so personally I don't see why it's not an option for a regional CPL-2 to have an odd number that fluctuates at times? Let's say CPL-1 has 15 teams, as you suggest. Whether it's 1, 2, or 3 teams being relegated, it's still workable. I mean, the German 3rd tier relegates three teams to four divisions, with the three teams automatically being demoted and the 4th tier promoting through a set of playoffs, so it's clearly doable.

So let's say we have 15 at the top and, say, 12 teams in each CPL-2 region. The top in each region get promoted and the bottom 3 in CPL-1 get demoted, leading to, for instance, 11/13/12. So what? It might even be possible to adjust what league specific teams play in (for instance, it's probably not that different for Thunder Bay to be in a Western Canada division compared to an Ontario/Central division. Similarly, Ottawa or Gatineau could be in an Ontario/Central or Eastern Canada division) if needed to keep things at 12 (or whatever) teams in each.

[mtlsab]

Something new about a team in Moncton, NB?

[Impactsupporter]

4 hours ago, Initial B said:

I've been giving this way too much thought and building possible future CPL Pro-rel frameworks on spreadsheets. The problem with having single table Div 1 and regional Div 2 is figuring out how to keep who goes up/down without eventually mucking up and unbalancing the geographical areas while also keeping a balanced schedule. Having an East-West Div 2 split would be easiest, but it doesn't balance out very well for travel and population. What seems to work best in my simulations is to have 3 regional groupings (in the West, Ontario, and East) because that matches roughly both populated geographical area and percentage of the national population +/- 10%. It would look something similar to what CONCACAF Nations League is structured like.

If you structure each region to have 5 Div 1 teams, 8 Div 2 teams, and any number of Div 3 teams divided into sub-regions, You could have pro-rel at the end of each 28-game season. Div 2 clubs would only play home and away games twice against each team in their region. At Div 1, the clubs would play home and away against every other Div 1 club from the three regions. At the end of the season, the bottom Div 1 club in each region would swap places with the top Div 2 club in their region. This would mean 3 of 15 Div 1 teams (20%) would be replaced each season, which is about as high a percentage as you would want to maximize competitiveness without compromising league stability.

Although the three regional Div 1 Tables would be used to determine who gets pro-rel'd, the teams would also be part of a single Div 1 National Table to determine who is the CPL champion and for apportioning additional Concacaf League or CCL slots to the teams that top the single table. Each week there would be one Div 1 club with a bye, but those would be useful at points in the season where teams had midweek international or Voyageur Cup matches, giving them a bit of a breather. 

The bottom Div 2 team in each region could be replaced with the best Div 3 team (by whatever method the Div 3 League chooses which team is best - this level will be the most fluid in format and structure). However, the winning team would have to meet the Promotion Criteria (say, a 1500-seat, restricted access stadium and year-round Front Office) or else the Div 2/3 pro-rel for that region doesn't occur.

I imagine that there would be a couple of teams that would perennially be in Div 1 (*cough*Hamilton*cough*) because they would have the most resources - our equivalent of Arsenal and Man U. Some would end up mid-table and some would bounce between Div 1 and Div 2. Others would be happy being just Div 2, but their skill levels will increase year over year as they're exposed to the skills of the teams that had been playing Div 1 the previous season. The same would happen in Div 3 with the Div 2 teams that get relegated. Eventually, there might be a Div 3 club that finds an owner with ambition and Canada will have it's own ladder-climbing club story to match those told elsewhere in the world. 

It would also work in the future if the Canadian MLS clubs ever wanted to join the CPL - when they were ready, each would join one of the regional structures to balance the league quality. 

You might find these two models interesting:  (both from Japan)

http://www.xleague.com/english/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.League

and even this state league in the Western US

https://eplwa.wordpress.com/2017/12/05/evergreen-premier-league-adopts-divisional-playoff-format-for-2018-season/

Just a thought.

 

[Initial B]

13 hours ago, Viruk42 said:

So let's say we have 15 at the top and, say, 12 teams in each CPL-2 region. The top in each region get promoted and the bottom 3 in CPL-1 get demoted, leading to, for instance, 11/13/12. So what? It might even be possible to adjust what league specific teams play in (for instance, it's probably not that different for Thunder Bay to be in a Western Canada division compared to an Ontario/Central division. Similarly, Ottawa or Gatineau could be in an Ontario/Central or Eastern Canada division) if needed to keep things at 12 (or whatever) teams in each.

I talk more about league structures in this post here:

One of the drivers in my mind that differentiates the leagues would be the travel costs. I was hoping to keep Div 2 teams withina bus ride of each other, rather than a plane ride, that would would still be difficult out west. Perhaps Bus travel should be expected for Div 3 teams and a few plane rides might be expected for Div 2, which would soften the transportation step between between Div 1 and Div 3.

I understand your concerns about the last place team in the strongest division, but if you don't have a region to region straight swap, you could have Windsor or London forced to play in the western league. Hmmm, I'll keep giving this more thought and add another iteration to the linked thread. 

[KW519]

FWIW Oakville was always one of the best run clubs when I was growing up. Great grass roots program with some decent history too. Guys like Junior Hoilett, Kyle Bekker, and Russell Tiebert played for Oakville.

 

 

[zen]

This isn't the same Oakville. This is actually the Toronto Lynx team that moved to Oakville and rebranded.

[KW519]

 

50 minutes ago, zen said:

This isn't the same Oakville. This is actually the Toronto Lynx team that moved to Oakville and rebranded.

I'm thinking Oakville Blue Stars my bad

[BuzzAndSting]

Bunbury’s announcement coming in March?

https://twitter.com/CplLaval/status/1095848815263969280?s=20

[Gopherbashi]

7 hours ago, BuzzAndSting said:

Bunbury’s announcement coming in March?

https://twitter.com/CplLaval/status/1095848815263969280?s=20

15-45 days is just asking too much for this league.

[Ansem]

 

[Shortdutchcanuck]

Check out @piercelang_’s Tweet:

Check out @piercelang_’s Tweet:

 

[youllneverwalkalone]

Where could a CPL club play in Oakville?

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Shortdutchcanuck said:

Check out @piercelang_’s Tweet:

Check out @piercelang_’s Tweet:

 

I am mostly intrigued by the I, Braineater graphic behind him, I saw Jim Cummins many times in the early 80s in Vancouver. Really legendary stuff. Same era as the breakout of Skinny Puppy.

Would be great if many Ontario locii get CPL clubs, but we need to fill in the rest of the country as well. 

[Winnipeg Fury]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I am mostly intrigued by the I, Braineater graphic behind him, I saw Jim Cummins many times in the early 80s in Vancouver. Really legendary stuff. Same era as the breakout of Skinny Puppy.

Would be great if many Ontario locii get CPL clubs, but we need to fill in the rest of the country as well. 

I used to have their single

[BuzzAndSting]

So based on that tweet and the info coming from the Bunbury group it seems that there’s a real possibility that we have a 9 team league next season. Who knows what the likelihood is of those two joining is but at this rate I’ll be disappointed if there’s not at least one expansion club.