CPL new teams speculation

[CDNFootballer]

6 hours ago, mtlsab said:

Here is my new article about CPL expansion, Please read and share:
https://culturesoccer.com/2019/03/03/quelles-prochaines-expansions-en-canpl/

Thanks for the article but is there an english option/version on the site? Would love to read it.

[mtlsab]

41 minutes ago, CDNFootballer said:

Thanks for the article but is there an english option/version on the site? Would love to read it.

No, I'm sorry, the website is in French only. There may be a podcast in English about expansion soon. I will let you know

[Copes]

I was able to get the jist of it with the translate option on my phone!

[Impactsupporter]

9 hours ago, mtlsab said:

Here is my new article about CPL expansion, Please read and share:
https://culturesoccer.com/2019/03/03/quelles-prochaines-expansions-en-canpl/

Do you see Quebec City getting a CPL team?? (as you mentioned Laval but not Quebec City)

 

 

[mtlsab]

34 minutes ago, Impactsupporter said:

Do you see Quebec City getting a CPL team?? (as you mentioned Laval but not Quebec City)

 

 

I don't see Quebec city getting a team soon since there's no investor behind the project and no suitable stadium

[Alex D]

10 hours ago, mtlsab said:

I don't see Quebec city getting a team soon since there's no investor behind the project and no suitable stadium

The stadium at Laval is nearly perfect for CPL. All it needs is fresh unmarked turf. If the University isn't cool with that, these new modular stadiums can pop up anywhere in weeks. 

[Dominic94]

So assuming we get Laval, Ottawa and TFC Mississauga we’ll call them, for 2020. Can the league somehow increase the level of competition ? Surely there aren’t that many quality Canadians left...

[baulderdash77]

There’s still at least 11 notable Canadian players out of contract night now.  

Ottawa has its own roster that’s largely intact.  There’s about 30 Canadian’s playing in other USL teams and at least a couple dozen more in Europe watching the first season.

There’s still lots of player pool out there.

[Shortdutchcanuck]

2 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

There’s still at least 11 notable Canadian players out of contract night now.  

Ottawa has its own roster that’s largely intact.  There’s about 30 Canadian’s playing in other USL teams and at least a couple dozen more in Europe watching the first season.

There’s still lots of player pool out there.

And new kids throwing their hats into the talent pool each passing year.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I assume the PLSQ would stock much of Laval.

[baulderdash77]

9 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I assume the PLSQ would stock much of Laval.

There’s about 8-9 former Montreal players in CanPL, L1O, USL or PQSL.  That probably becomes Laval’s core I would think.  Plus the cream of PQSL.

[Senorpopps]

12 hours ago, Dominic94 said:

So assuming we get Laval, Ottawa and TFC Mississauga we’ll call them, for 2020. Can the league somehow increase the level of competition ? Surely there aren’t that many quality Canadians left...

I think that all depends on whether the Canadians abroad come back - there are still quite a few Canadians plying their trade internationally that could return, but we'll need a successful first season to draw them in! That, and I imagine we'd have to start to rely on loans.

[shamrock]

20 years ago, MLS started. And it grew and grew and then came USL and that grew and grew. And still the level of both went up. 

Really, the current number of players isn't a problem. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

23 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

There’s still at least 11 notable Canadian players out of contract night now.  

Ottawa has its own roster that’s largely intact.  There’s about 30 Canadian’s playing in other USL teams and at least a couple dozen more in Europe watching the first season.

There’s still lots of player pool out there.

We also have a set up where we get 21 U-Sports players a year, so that is 3 for any new team. 

They can look at players in NCAA not drafted into MLS. 

We are seeing now MLS waivers, and loans, and some good picks at that. 

If the L1O players pan out, then the value of that league jumps significantly. 

Then, finally, we are probably going to see something this summer: the better PDL players, the top ones, being picked up for the second half of the season. After all, Cavalry has most of Foothills and if they do well, that will justify the interest there too. I know this is not the top tier of our rosters, but it does ensure more in the pool. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

I want to pick up on the previous post. It is not directly related to players, but to league quality. 

In many top leagues in the world we have seen debates on how quality can only be preserved by reducing the number of teams. Now league size is not only a question of optimal quality, as there are also considerations of freeing up fixtures for international and cup competitions, but historically the debate has been made.

This is why Serie A and Bundesliga cut back (for this latter the winter break was also a factor). There was a time when La Liga had 22 (and even 21 one year). In any case the argument is there: more teams means more teams of a lesser quality, more filler, more fixtures vs teams that are of lesser interest for fans (even fans of weaker teams do not want to see similar sides, they prefer the more notorious ones). It does not necessarily mean more better players, as the lesser teams simply cannot go out and take them from economically weaker leagues. 

In countries with small leagues, like Scotland, or Austria, the key is that there is a drop-off in quality and strength of clubs, largely due to the country's size leaving you with a few stronger clubs, and then quickly clubs in smaller stadiums and lesser economic clout. The tv market does not compensate this, as the audiences drop off brusquely for the weaker sides. This curve could appear in CPL if we add teams. I am not sure we are there yet, and we have a few markets that suggest that there is a way to go (Greater Victoria and lower Van Isle puts this at half a million population in a vicinity of say 100 km).

Now the question of player pool is also a factor, but will only appear as flagrant if some teams, in superior economic mode, can sign the better ones, and the lesser and marginal types entering into clubs on the fringe of its quality go to weaker teams. This is a reason for a cap that goes beyond the question of helping clubs manage finances and not overspend, to ensure none is overextended and thus in risk of failure. A cap softens the effect of having players from semi-pro and amateur ranks coming into a league, even one moving towards 14 teams, and making it obviously of poorer quality with every addition. 

[Impactsupporter]

22 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I want to pick up on the previous post. It is not directly related to players, but to league quality. 

In many top leagues in the world we have seen debates on how quality can only be preserved by reducing the number of teams. Now league size is not only a question of optimal quality, as there are also considerations of freeing up fixtures for international and cup competitions, but historically the debate has been made.

This is why Serie A and Bundesliga cut back (for this latter the winter break was also a factor). There was a time when La Liga had 22 (and even 21 one year). In any case the argument is there: more teams means more teams of a lesser quality, more filler, more fixtures vs teams that are of lesser interest for fans (even fans of weaker teams do not want to see similar sides, they prefer the more notorious ones). It does not necessarily mean more better players, as the lesser teams simply cannot go out and take them from economically weaker leagues. 

In countries with small leagues, like Scotland, or Austria, the key is that there is a drop-off in quality and strength of clubs, largely due to the country's size leaving you with a few stronger clubs, and then quickly clubs in smaller stadiums and lesser economic clout. The tv market does not compensate this, as the audiences drop off brusquely for the weaker sides. This curve could appear in CPL if we add teams. I am not sure we are there yet, and we have a few markets that suggest that there is a way to go (Greater Victoria and lower Van Isle puts this at half a million population in a vicinity of say 100 km).

Now the question of player pool is also a factor, but will only appear as flagrant if some teams, in superior economic mode, can sign the better ones, and the lesser and marginal types entering into clubs on the fringe of its quality go to weaker teams. This is a reason for a cap that goes beyond the question of helping clubs manage finances and not overspend, to ensure none is overextended and thus in risk of failure. A cap softens the effect of having players from semi-pro and amateur ranks coming into a league, even one moving towards 14 teams, and making it obviously of poorer quality with every addition. 

I was just talking yesterday with a coach in my hometown on the South Shore of Montreal (name and town withheld by request) and he said that the optimal size for the CPL should be 14 to 16 teams.  I suggested there then should be 2 groups of 8 (group A and Group B) with pro/rel between the groups, (ie within the CPL, but NOT between CPL and PLSQ, L1O, etc) and he thought that was a great idea.

As well the other concern is how many CPL teams can a region or province support?  Talking with this coach again he felt that Quebec could support 2 CPL teams in the province (Quebec City and possible Montreal Laval).   At an Impact Academy game I went to in Nov. 2018 I saw some people from Nova Scotia (who had sons playing on the team) and when I asked how many CPL teams Atlantic Canada could support, they felt that only 1 team would be viable to represent the whole region.  Not really 2(Halifax and Moncton)

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, Impactsupporter said:

I was just talking yesterday with a coach in my hometown on the South Shore of Montreal (name and town withheld by request) and he said that the optimal size for the CPL should be 14 to 16 teams.  I suggested there then should be 2 groups of 8 (group A and Group with pro/rel between the groups, (ie within the CPL, but NOT between CPL and PLSQ, L1O, etc) and he thought that was a great idea.

As well the other concern is how many CPL teams can a region or province support?  Talking with this coach again he felt that Quebec could support 2 CPL teams in the province (Quebec City and possible Montreal Laval).   At an Impact Academy game I went to in Nov. 2018 I saw some people from Nova Scotia (who had sons playing on the team) and when I asked how many CPL teams Atlantic Canada could support, they felt that only 1 team would be viable to represent the whole region.  Not really 2(Halifax and Moncton)

So is that in function of fans, or in function of the quality of young players the region can produce? Just curious. 

We have regions in Canada that used to be strong in producing players and have dropped in relative terms (BC), others that have yet to really move but could get a big boost with a CPL team (Maritimes), then others which are already strong and may get stronger (Southern Ontario, thinking of L1O growing under the CPL wing). 

As for fans, I don't think it is unrelated. I am probably a big soccer fan because I played, though rather poorly, all my youth and then house leagues at university even. But only really woke up to my passion for it when I got to Barcelona in my late 20s (Whitecaps were too inconsistent, as was that damn league).

I was going to write I thought a Moncton team could work as a rival, but I just checked population and realise maybe what you need is a truly New Brunswick identified team that the entire province could get behind. 

Edited March 8, 2019 by Unnamed Trialist

[Obinna]

@Impact supporter I would tend to agree on your point regarding Atlantic Canada being unable to support multiple teams. The one team in Halifax should definitely suffice, while adding Moncton would likely be a stretch. 

Conversely, Quebec could definitely support 2 teams, perhaps even 3. 

Back when I played youth soccer, I recall someone telling me that Soccer Quebec would have something like 300 trialists for their provincial team, whereas for our Newfoundland team the number was closer to 25, maybe 30. Tryouts were invite only and I assume it was the same in Quebec. Definitely anecdotal evidence, mind you, but the point is that Quebec has a bigger talent pool than all of Atlantic Canada combined.

Halifax, and by extension Nova Scotia, punches above it's weight in soccer anyways, and my theory was always because they had the National Training Centre. I remember looking at the lists of players (probably enviously, since I was never invited ?) , and there'd always be like 15 players from Halifax, 2 or 3 from elsewhere in NS, another 2 or 3 from NB, and maybe a player from PEI or Newfoundland.

Anyways, Halifax has that tradition of being the regional hub for soccer in Atlantic Canada for youth players - Halifax Wanderers can be like the adult, professional version of that. I don't see the need for another team in the region anytime soon, if ever.

Though if there was, I would like to see it in Newfoundland. It is rather isolated from the rest of Atlantic Canada, plus y'know, I am biased! ?

Edited March 8, 2019 by Obinna

[C2SKI]

5 hours ago, Impactsupporter said:

I was just talking yesterday with a coach in my hometown on the South Shore of Montreal (name and town withheld by request) and he said that the optimal size for the CPL should be 14 to 16 teams.  I suggested there then should be 2 groups of 8 (group A and Group with pro/rel between the groups, (ie within the CPL, but NOT between CPL and PLSQ, L1O, etc) and he thought that was a great idea.

As well the other concern is how many CPL teams can a region or province support?  Talking with this coach again he felt that Quebec could support 2 CPL teams in the province (Quebec City and possible Montreal Laval).   At an Impact Academy game I went to in Nov. 2018 I saw some people from Nova Scotia (who had sons playing on the team) and when I asked how many CPL teams Atlantic Canada could support, they felt that only 1 team would be viable to represent the whole region.  Not really 2(Halifax and Moncton)

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I disagree with the approach. I don't think we shouldn't be asking how many Premier League teams can a region support. We should be asking how many communities can or will support a professional soccer team. Of any level. Whether those teams rise to the Premier League is another matter. That's the beauty of promotion/relegation.

I realize that we're still trying to establish a top division, but I think it's important to start with this mentality from the outset. Otherwise it will never be accepted (a la MLS)

[Soccerpro]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

@Impact supporter I would tend to agree on your point regarding Atlantic Canada being unable to support multiple teams. The one team in Halifax should definitely suffice, while adding Moncton would likely be a stretch. 

Conversely, Quebec could definitely support 2 teams, perhaps even 3. 

Back when I played youth soccer, I recall someone telling me that Soccer Quebec would have something like 300 trialists for their provincial team, whereas for our Newfoundland team the number was closer to 25, maybe 30. Tryouts were invite only and I assume it was the same in Quebec. Definitely anecdotal evidence, mind you, but the point is that Quebec has a bigger talent pool than all of Atlantic Canada combined.

Halifax, and by extension Nova Scotia, punches above it's weight in soccer anyways, and my theory was always because they had the National Training Centre. I remember looking at the lists of players (probably enviously, since I was never invited ?) , and there'd always be like 15 players from Halifax, 2 or 3 from elsewhere in NS, another 2 or 3 from NB, and maybe a player from PEI or Newfoundland.

Anyways, Halifax has that tradition of being the regional hub for soccer in Atlantic Canada for youth players - Halifax Wanderers can be like the adult, professional version of that. I don't see the need for another team in the region anytime soon, if ever.

Though if there was, I would like to see it in Newfoundland. It is rather isolated from the rest of Atlantic Canada, plus y'know, I am biased! ?

I played before the national training centre was in existence. Nova Scotia was the best Atlantic Province in soccer before the NTC.

Why?

Generally the best talent in Canada is found in the biggest cities. The biggest city in Atlantic Canada is Halifax. The vast majority of Provincial team roster's players were from Halifax. That's where the competition was highest for players. Probably a combination of diversity, facilities, competition,high level training and numbers. Hard to attend the Provincial team practices in Halifax If you live in Cape Breton 5 hours away.

When we'd go to nationals and inevitably place 5-7th our coach theorized the reason was lack of high quality competition at home. You don't stay sharp and improve playing against 2 good teams and 5 garbage teams in the NSSL every year. New Brunswick and PEI tournaments didn't help either, as they were always a lower level of competition. It's the same idea for pro youth academies: Train hard and find the best competition to challenge yourself.

Stephen Hart trained my u13 club team for 2-3 months as a supplemental regional training centre when I was a kid. I don't think kids in rural N.S got those opportunities. 

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Soccerpro

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, Soccerpro said:

I played before the national training centre was in existence. Nova Scotia was the best Atlantic Province in soccer before the NTC.

Why?

Generally the best talent in Canada is found in the biggest cities. The biggest city in Atlantic Canada is Halifax. The vast majority of Provincial team roster's players were from Halifax. That's where the competition was highest for players. Probably a combination of diversity, facilities, competition,high level training and numbers. Hard to attend the Provincial team practices in Halifax If you live in Cape Breton 5 hours away.

When we'd go to nationals and inevitably place 5-7th our coach theorized the reason was lack of high quality competition at home. You don't stay sharp and improve playing against 2 good teams and 5 garbage teams in the NSSL every year. New Brunswick and PEI tournaments didn't help either, as they were always a lower level of competition. It's the same idea for pro youth academies: Train hard and find the best competition to challenge yourself.

Stephen Hart trained my u13 club team for 2-3 months as a supplemental regional training centre when I was a kid. I don't think kids in rural N.S got those opportunities. 

 

Yeah, I here yah. I wasn't insinuating that NTC alone was responsible. Population is certainly a big factor, along with facilities, diversity etc. Halifax rightfully hosted NTC because of those factors.

One year we went to Halifax for a training camp, pre-nationals, and our coach told us Nova Scotia wanted to play Ontario as prep, not us. Seems to corroborate what you're saying.

Anyway, they easily beat us at weir field, by 3 or 4 goals, then at nationals they finished 5th, which ironically included a 1-1 tie with Ontario.

In fact, both years I played in that tournament, NS finished 5th. And, both times NS finished ahead of Manitoba and Saskatchewan. And, despite the fact all 3 pretty much have the same population, NS were a harder team to play against in my experience.

And, what did NS have that Sask and Manitoba didn't? The National Training Centre. Hence my theory.

It could of just been that particular generation of players though. I was the same year as Matthew Britner. That guy was good. 

Definitely though, NS was/is traditionally the strongest in Atlantic Canada, but I do think NTC made the gap even larger. How could it not?

Edited March 9, 2019 by Obinna

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, C2SKI said:

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I disagree with the approach. I don't think we shouldn't be asking how many Premier League teams can a region support. We should be asking how many communities can or will support a professional soccer team. Of any level. Whether those teams rise to the Premier League is another matter. That's the beauty of promotion/relegation.

I realize that we're still trying to establish a top division, but I think it's important to start with this mentality from the outset. Otherwise it will never be accepted (a la MLS)

I think there is merit to this opinion, but it's hard to ignore the lack of local talent, because ultimately you'll need to draw on that for reserve team and/or academy in the future. Already we see a lack of Atlantic Canadians with Halifax Wanderers. 

One could argue that CanPL Moncton could play a pivotal role in growing soccer locally, to the point where that talent base does exist, but I am skeptical. It may prove difficult in the short/medium term. Let's see how Halifax does first, at least.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Obinna

[Unnamed Trialist]

What would it mean to have an all New Brunswick team, with a provincial identity, in CPL? Would that work? I mean, the three largest cities, while small, are fairly close. Would a Moncton team draw from Fredricton and St John? Or is their similar size a source of rivalry?

Or a first step: have there been any moves to create a PDL club in New Brunswick? 

What I am feeling deep down: a team in NB gives us an incredible regional set of rivalries, and fairly close options for away travel. 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Unnamed Trialist

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

What would it mean to have an all New Brunswick team, with a provincial identity, in CPL? Would that work? I mean, the three largest cities, while small, are fairly close. Would a Moncton team draw from Fredricton and St John? Or is their similar size a source of rivalry?

Or a first step: have there been any moves to create a PDL club in New Brunswick? 

What I am feeling deep down: a team in NB gives us an incredible regional set of rivalries, and fairly close options for away travel. 

Well, Moncton is more francophone than Fredricton or Saint John, so there's that. Probably not enough to take away from your all-New Brunswick idea though, if you ask me.

Regardless, Moncton would be a very cool destination for a future team, especially considering the stadium. Plus, in terms of geography, it would link Halifax with whatever team(s) come from Quebec. I like the idea of that, I am just concerned about the lack of talent in the region.

Halifax alone will vaccum up any good players from NB and PEI, so Moncton may be redundant as far as player development goes.

Someone more familiar with the province could chime in, but from the outside looking in, I don't think there'd be much of an issue branding Moncton as NB's team. I don't necessarily think you'd have to though. It would probably pan out that way organically. I think the lack of professional sports would draw people in from all over the province and override any minor rivalries that may exist between the 3 cities.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Obinna

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Lower Mainland BC and the Quebec-Windsor corridor are where they can find players most easily, so that's where they can add most easily without risking a dilution in playing standards.

If/when they get past 8 in stable franchise numbers, I don't think they should be in a huge rush to expand to smaller more remote cities like Moncton, Saskatoon and St John's, if they haven't been added by that point unless/until they can provide salaries that make the relocation involved less of an issue or compromise on the MLS affiliate angle.

Ideally from a player pool standpoint the next three would be Surrey, Ottawa and Laval with London, K/W and Quebec as the next set of possibilities after that, if suburban teams like York 9 prove to be a difficult sell in season ticket terms and that makes Surrey and Laval problematic.

Edited March 9, 2019 by BringBackTheBlizzard