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CPL new teams speculation

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1 hour ago, Ansem said:

When the league was talking about 200k+ to be a viable CPL location, they left out an important aspect out of it publicly but you just know that it weights a ton...

Corporate presence

Those $1k seats that sold out at York University and those multi-hundreds dollars plates during that York 9 event(so I've heard) Corporation $$$

Those crazy expensive seats at Spruce Meadows are likely aimed at Corporations as well, not your average middle class family of 4.

...

 

Ohhhh.  Not even a ball kicked in anger yet and already the reasons to hate York and Cavalry are added up.  

Smoothie drinking,  i-phone yacking, late for kick-off sons-of-bitches can put their cologne scented asses back into their spotlessly clean Jeep SUVs and bugger off to where ever it is they came from. 

Oh yeah, and tell me to sit down one more time any you're going to get such a pinch!  See if you don't!  

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14 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Rollins cant be serious?? Has he ever been to Winnipeg/manitoba??  More chance of having a Dynamo Ukraine team playing out of the new S. JUBA memorial stadium.  Or maybe try a Filipino team.....franco-manitoban...I think he is smoking something.  

Maybe setting up a cheap pun for the team name  'Riel Manitoba'  

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5 hours ago, Ansem said:

When the league was talking about 200k+ to be a viable CPL location, they left out an important aspect out of it publicly but you just know that it weights a ton...

Corporate presence

Those $1k seats that sold out at York University and those multi-hundreds dollars plates during that York 9 event(so I've heard) Corporation $$$

Those crazy expensive seats at Spruce Meadows are likely aimed at Corporations as well, not your average middle class family of 4.

I would argue that an area with 300k but little to no corporate presence makes it less desirable, for D1 at least. Looking at the census, despite Barrie ranking higher in population, Moncton makes way more sense due to it's corporate weight (Irving). Same for Niagara-St.Cath having double St.John's population but they have Oil companies like ExxonMobil Canada having it's HQ there.

A strong Corporate presence that spends on the product (recurring expansive season tickets, concessions and merchandise) helps the clubs being less dependent on lower tier ticket sales.  I think CPL did a much better job in that area than the CSL ever did, hence its demise. That was actually a Clanachan main talking point, corporate Canada seems as shown up and it seems that it will be an increasing trend.

Isn't that the whole point of CSB after all? Can't be a major league without corporate money.

 

Corporate bucks are a lot bigger than the fans' although without a fanbase corporates wouldn't be interested. 

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If you install a team in Moncton and turn it into some language-based identity symbol, whether French or English, it will fail. As an Acadian myself, I can tell you that any team that "claims" that identity will receive little support from the Acadian community and even less from the Anglophone community.

Moncton is already too small with a close to non-existant corporate base for the CPL. I don't understand why people think that discouraging any potential fan from forging links with the team could be helpful.

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6 hours ago, Sébastien said:

If you install a team in Moncton and turn it into some language-based identity symbol, whether French or English, it will fail. As an Acadian myself, I can tell you that any team that "claims" that identity will receive little support from the Acadian community and even less from the Anglophone community.

 Moncton is already too small with a close to non-existant corporate base for the CPL. I don't understand why people think that discouraging any potential fan from forging links with the team could be helpful.

I havent read every post in this thread, but I haven't seen anyone support the idea that an identity would be "imposed" by anyone. If you install a team in Moncton, I'd expect the team culture to organically be, "at least", bilingual. 

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6 minutes ago, fmfranck said:

I havent read every post in this thread, but I haven't seen anyone support the idea that an identity would be "imposed" by anyone. If you install a team in Moncton, I'd expect the team culture to organically be, "at least", bilingual. 

I agree, often it's the fans themselves that build the culture not the organization. Since you can't exactly choose your fans, the culture aspect would likely be what you say - "bilingual" -

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Ansem said:

I would argue that an area with 300k but little to no corporate presence makes it less desirable, for D1 at least. Looking at the census, despite Barrie ranking higher in population, Moncton makes way more sense due to it's corporate weight (Irving). Same for Niagara-St.Cath having double St.John's population but they have Oil companies like ExxonMobil Canada having it's HQ there.

I'm not sure about corporate presence, but for Corporate headquarters, Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver have the lion's share and they're mostly hitching their wagon to MLS. A cursory Wiki search shows these CPL cities with Corp HQs:

  1. Calgary (Oil Companies, CPR, Shaw)
  2. Edmonton (Government, Finance, Technology, The Brick, Bioware)
  3. Winnipeg (Government, Transportation, GreatWest Life)
  4. Victoria (Government - probably the weakest corporate presence, maybe Vista Broadcast from Courtnay?))
  5. York Region (Magna, Honda, Mobilicity, Ganz)
  6. Hamilton (Stelco, Dofasco)
  7. Halifax (Bell Aliant, NS Power, Jazz Air, Government)

A further Wiki search shows these other Canadian cities with multiple or major Corporate HQs that could probably support Div 1 soccer:

  1. Brampton (Loblaws, Hudson's Bay)
  2. Burnaby (Telus, Balard Power, EA Canada)
  3. Kelowna (FortisBC, Sun Rype, Koingo Software)
  4. Kitchener-Waterloo (Colt Weapons, Dare Foods, Blackberry, technology) 
  5. Laval (Circle K, Valeant Pharma etc)
  6. London (Financial, London Life, Goodlife Fitness)
  7. Mississauga (Cotts, IMAX, Winners, Second Cup)
  8. Oakville (Ford, Tim Hortons, Financial)
  9. Ottawa (Software, Corel, Shopify, Giant Tiger, GOVERNMENT)
  10. Quebec City (Government, Financial, )
  11. Regina (Government, SaskTel, SaskPower, TransGas)
  12. Saskatoon (Potash Corp, Mining, Biotech)
  13. St. John's (Fortis, Bowring)
  14. Saint John (Irving Oil, Moosehead, JDI)
  15. Windsor (Chrysler)

A further Wiki search shows these other Canadian cities with Corp HQs that could probably front lower tier soccer::

  1. Barrie (The Source)
  2. Belleville (Black Diamond Cheese)
  3. Brantford (New York Fries)
  4. Cambridge (Lystek)
  5. Charlottetown (PEI Insurance)
  6. Delta (Choices Market)
  7. Fredericton (Government, McCain Foods?)
  8. Fort McMurray (Syncrude)
  9. Guelph (Sleeman's)
  10. Langley (Save-on-Foods, Pharmasave)
  11. Longueuil (Pratt & Whitney)
  12. Medicine Hat (Kodiak Coil)
  13. Oshawa (GM)
  14. Prince Albert (Transwest Air)
  15. Prince George (Forestry)
  16. Sault-Ste-Marie (OLG)
  17. Surrey (Frozen Mountain)
  18. Vernon (Kal Tire, Tolko)

Unfortunately no Moncton, but that's 40 communities with a significant Corporate presence. Some companies have a national footprint and could sponsor aspects of the league, not just teams. Jersey sponsorship is going to be interesting if this league takes off.

Edited by Initial B

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22 minutes ago, fmfranck said:

I havent read every post in this thread, but I haven't seen anyone support the idea that an identity would be "imposed" by anyone. If you install a team in Moncton, I'd expect the team culture to organically be, "at least", bilingual. 

There was a previous post talking about having the Moncton team having an "Acadie" focus, permitting it to also have a "Francophone derby" with a Québec team. There was also the Dwayne tweet, and others mentioning the Francophone connection as well.

I wasn't warning people against "imposing" an identity. And any team in Moncton would absolutely have to cater to both populations (though the Moncton Wildcats basically do it at an Ottawa Fury level, aka, not enough).

All I'm saying is that pitching the idea of team focused on the Acadian identity as a possible road to success is a non-starter.

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Moncton have had some of its HQs recently acquired by other companies, but they still have a few : 

  • Major Drilling Group International
  • Medavie Blue cross

I dont think HQ is the be-all and end-all of making a team profitable. It is a well-known fact that IMFC have had a hard time attracting corporate dollars, but they can still survive in the MLS market. 

 


 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Initial B said:

I'm not sure about corporate presence, but for Corporate headquarters, Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver have the lion's share and they're mostly hitching their wagon to MLS. A cursory Wiki search shows these CPL cities with Corp HQs:

  1. Calgary (Oil Companies, CPR, Shaw)
  2. Edmonton (Government, Finance, Technology, The Brick, Bioware)
  3. Winnipeg (Government, Transportation, GreatWest Life)
  4. Victoria (Government - probably the weakest corporate presence, maybe Vista Broadcast from Courtnay?))
  5. York Region (Magna, Honda, Mobilicity, Ganz)
  6. Hamilton (Stelco, Dofasco)
  7. Halifax (Bell Aliant, NS Power, Jazz Air, Government)

A further Wiki search shows these other Canadian cities with multiple or major Corporate HQs that could probably support Div 1 soccer:

  1. Brampton (Loblaws, Hudson's Bay)
  2. Burnaby (Telus, Balard Power, EA Canada)
  3. Kelowna (FortisBC, Sun Rype, Koingo Software)
  4. Kitchener-Waterloo (Colt Weapons, Dare Foods, Blackberry, technology) 
  5. Laval (Circle K, Valeant Pharma etc)
  6. London (Financial, London Life, Goodlife Fitness)
  7. Mississauga (Cotts, IMAX, Winners, Second Cup)
  8. Oakville (Ford, Tim Hortons, Financial)
  9. Ottawa (Software, Corel, Shopify, Giant Tiger, GOVERNMENT)
  10. Quebec City (Government, Financial, )
  11. Regina (Government, SaskTel, SaskPower, TransGas)
  12. Saskatoon (Potash Corp, Mining, Biotech)
  13. St. John's (Fortis, Bowring)
  14. Saint John (Irving Oil, Moosehead, JDI)
  15. Windsor (Chrysler)

A further Wiki search shows these other Canadian cities with Corp HQs that could probably front lower tier soccer::

  1. Barrie (The Source)
  2. Belleville (Black Diamond Cheese)
  3. Brantford (New York Fries)
  4. Cambridge (Lystek)
  5. Charlottetown (PEI Insurance)
  6. Delta (Choices Market)
  7. Fredericton (Government, McCain Foods?)
  8. Fort McMurray (Syncrude)
  9. Guelph (Sleeman's)
  10. Langley (Save-on-Foods, Pharmasave)
  11. Longueuil (Pratt & Whitney)
  12. Medicine Hat (Kodiak Coil)
  13. Oshawa (GM)
  14. Prince Albert (Transwest Air)
  15. Prince George (Forestry)
  16. Sault-Ste-Marie (OLG)
  17. Surrey (Frozen Mountain)
  18. Vernon (Kal Tire, Tolko)

Unfortunately no Moncton, but that's 40 communities with a significant Corporate presence. Some companies have a national footprint and could sponsor aspects of the league, not just teams. Jersey sponsorship is going to be interesting if this league takes off.

Not just about HQs, just corporate presences and Moncton has it

Edited by Ansem

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7 minutes ago, fmfranck said:

Moncton have had some of its HQs recently acquired by other companies, but they still have a few : 

  • Major Drilling Group International
  • Medavie Blue cross

I dont think HQ is the be-all and end-all of making a team profitable. It is a well-known fact that IMFC have had a hard time attracting corporate dollars, but they can still survive in the MLS market. 

 


 

Montreal has had a very bad leadership structure, bad leadership and bad marketing overall, something that the journalists that are in love with them have been saying for years.

With Saputo naming a president for the club and stepping away, this is actually the FIRST time that Montreal will have a sound professional front office structure. That on it's own should help turn things around significantly. Can't do worse than Saputo.

Unfortunately for them (fortunately for Laval), it's almost over a decade of time that was wasted by their inability to penetrate the suburbs and the rest of the province. Now that they might get their act together, CPL Laval is imminent and Quebec City is a matter of time...

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Posted (edited)

Question on D2.

Seems like most people are in favour of D2 being national in scale as well.

Considering that, how would D2 in Canada be economically feasible, if most of your revenues are expected to go down, but your travel expenses, which are pretty hefty, stay the same?

Legitimately asking. I assume Russia has pro/rel? How do they manage that aspect of things? Any other country with similar geographical challenges?

***EDIT***

Thinking of this is a world where I don't think Moncton would be a great candidate for D1, but likely for D2, and wondering how they would keep up with travel expenses if they have to go out West that often.

Edited by Sébastien

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Sébastien said:

Considering that, how would D2 in Canada be economically feasible, if most of your revenues are expected to go down, but your travel expenses, which are pretty hefty, stay the same?

Deals like MediaPro helps where the money trickles down to all level. That's the kind of revenue that a D2 would absolutely need. CSB bundling everything together is key here as everyone can count on recurring revenues. 

The league talk about "as soon as 2026 or when 16 clubs have joined".

Realistically, it has to be post 2026, after the "high of the world Cup", combined with an increase in population, success of the CPL and right before the deal with MediaPro ends in 2029 when they enter in negotiations for a new media deal where they will be looking to cash in.

If CPL is successful, they will be able to cash in on the next media deal which could be "pyramidal" by bundling all the tiers and National team (a good team drives up the value) and good V Cup together.

The success of CPL, a World Cup, a good national team could have implemented the "soccer culture" needed for a National D2 to work in smaller market. You need that culture for smaller areas to still drive an average of 5k fans a game on average. We clearly don't have that in 2019 but in 2026-2029? Very possible but it starts with CPL culminating to a 2026 World Cup with a team getting us into the round of 16.

Until you have the conditions above and then some, heavier corporate/sponsor investments, I don't see D2 happening in my opinion.

Edited by Ansem

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22 hours ago, fmfranck said:

Question : do you think franco ontarians would get behind a Gatineau team? Those 290k would be a nice boost to the 330k possible fanbase in Gatineau. And you'd get a "better" corporate presence at the same time. 

Depends. There are what I would call "soft Francos" who identify more as "Franco-Ontarian" than "Canadien-Francais", and they're pretty loyal to Ottawa teams, especially the uOttawa Gee-Gees and La Cité Coyotes. Same thing as Acadians with the team at U de Moncton.

I mean, if Gatineau got a team and the alternative was the Fury, you'd quickly find me a fan of Gatineau. 

Also, the beer is much, much better in Gatineau, so yeah, I'd be all about this. 

And Gatineau actually has a ton of big companies based in their downtown (I work for one) and tons of people - especially Franco-Ontarians - cross the border every day. 

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On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 3:07 AM, Rocket Robin said:

Maybe setting up a cheap pun for the team name  'Riel Manitoba'  

Too hipster, mate (or maybe, not enough). I'd go for the traditional, North American naming convention...

Red River Rebels, come on down!

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17 hours ago, Ansem said:

Deals like MediaPro helps where the money trickles down to all level. That's the kind of revenue that a D2 would absolutely need. CSB bundling everything together is key here as everyone can count on recurring revenues. 

<snip>

The success of CPL, a World Cup, a good national team could have implemented the "soccer culture" needed for a National D2 to work in smaller market. You need that culture for smaller areas to still drive an average of 5k fans a game on average. We clearly don't have that in 2019 but in 2026-2029? Very possible but it starts with CPL culminating to a 2026 World Cup with a team getting us into the round of 16.

Until you have the conditions above and then some, heavier corporate/sponsor investments, I don't see D2 happening in my opinion.

I would agree with this, but it got me thinking: If there is a Salary Cap in place (or some form of the UEFA Financial Fair Play rules), then there would be no need for Pro-Rel because of "any given Sunday" and all that, depending on their fortunes of the year. But if the salary rules are relaxed, Div 1 would be for the elite clubs that can pay and the Div 2 clubs would be for those trying to make it on a lower budget. If the media rights go across all levels, maybe that would mitigate the effects of a drop.

As for travel, I think Div 2 should be a bridge between the Regional Div 3 level and the National Div 1 level. Teams at Div 2 should probably expect to play every Div 2 team at least once, which would require cross-country travel. However the remainder of their games should probably be played against teams within their geographical group or conference, each similar in area to the D3 League immediately below it in the Pyramid. Promotion would be decided by Playoffs only.

As for entry fees, I think they should remain static, even as entries get pushed down to Div 2 or even Div 3 as apposed to MLS model raising the cost higher and higher as they add more teams to an increasingly unwieldy structure. 

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On 3/11/2019 at 5:41 PM, Initial B said:

Sigh. Fine. Here's a closer to final state that I could see the league becoming Circa 2040. This should include just about every possible location for a club.

image.thumb.png.c675e78427afcf7dfda1a4b0ac91e15c.png

Yesterday, I showed this to a soccer coach in my hometown on the south Shore of Montreal (name and town withheld by request) and he said that VERY FEW of these cities outside of D1 will have the budgets to travel coast to coast.

I agree that the D1 should have 14 teams BUT I still favor splitting them up into 2 groups of 7 with pro rel between them (but not the D2 or D3) modelled after the Currie Cup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currie_Cup

OR you could model the D2 and D3 after this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.League

Just a thought.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Impactsupporter said:

Yesterday, I showed this to a soccer coach in my hometown on the south Shore of Montreal (name and town withheld by request) and he said that VERY FEW of these cities outside of D1 will have the budgets to travel coast to coast.

I agree that the D1 should have 14 teams BUT I still favor splitting them up into 2 groups of 7 with pro rel between them (but not the D2 or D3) modelled after the Currie Cup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currie_Cup

OR you could model the D2 and D3 after this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.League

Just a thought.

That's exactly why Div 2 Clubs would only play games within their own region in the chart you quoted. The geographic catchments for each of those leagues would be similar to those used by the Canadian Hockey League (OHL = L1O, QMJHL = PLSQ, WHL = yet to be formed League). The only out-of-Region play would occur between the playoff teams to determine promotion to Div 1. There probably should be some mechanism to allow Champion Div 2 clubs the ability to decline promotion if they feel it would place too much of a financial strain on the club. Also, remember that list is a structure for 20 years from now. After 20 years of MLS, there were 20 First Division clubs and 11 Second Division clubs and 28 Third Division clubs. It is also worthwhile to note that the National Div 2 League pretty much died soon after and was replaced by a Regional Div 2 League.

I think a B.league-type conference system could work for first division, but the CPL has been pretty adamant that they are going to be single table.

Edited by Initial B

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1 hour ago, Impactsupporter said:

Yesterday, I showed this to a soccer coach in my hometown on the south Shore of Montreal (name and town withheld by request) and he said that VERY FEW of these cities outside of D1 will have the budgets to travel coast to coast.

Oh well, if Jacques Smith from the South Shore Shooters U14 "B" team says it, it must be true!

?

 

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21 hours ago, Ansem said:

Deals like MediaPro helps where the money trickles down to all level. That's the kind of revenue that a D2 would absolutely need. CSB bundling everything together is key here as everyone can count on recurring revenues. 

The league talk about "as soon as 2026 or when 16 clubs have joined".

Realistically, it has to be post 2026, after the "high of the world Cup", combined with an increase in population, success of the CPL and right before the deal with MediaPro ends in 2029 when they enter in negotiations for a new media deal where they will be looking to cash in.

If CPL is successful, they will be able to cash in on the next media deal which could be "pyramidal" by bundling all the tiers and National team (a good team drives up the value) and good V Cup together.

The success of CPL, a World Cup, a good national team could have implemented the "soccer culture" needed for a National D2 to work in smaller market. You need that culture for smaller areas to still drive an average of 5k fans a game on average. We clearly don't have that in 2019 but in 2026-2029? Very possible but it starts with CPL culminating to a 2026 World Cup with a team getting us into the round of 16.

Until you have the conditions above and then some, heavier corporate/sponsor investments, I don't see D2 happening in my opinion.

I am also of the opinion that once you consolidate 12-14 teams in a D1, D2 may not be such a high priority. And it'll be hard to have a league structure worrying about setting up a D2 with less money, more financial headaches, weaker stadium structure, fan base, and so on.

It might make sense for the CSA and CPL together to get every province or region up to par with Québec and Ontario for a stronger semi-pro structure on that level.

What might be higher priority, in fact, is to have academy structures for CPL teams, since development always goes better if there is a pro club behind it, as an international norm (your Sigmas, however effective in Canada, are outliers). 

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