CPL new teams speculation

[Macksam]

22 minutes ago, Initial B said:

 

1. Oshawa (GM)

 

[Ansem]

32 minutes ago, Initial B said:

I'm not sure about corporate presence, but for Corporate headquarters, Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver have the lion's share and they're mostly hitching their wagon to MLS. A cursory Wiki search shows these CPL cities with Corp HQs:

1. Calgary (Oil Companies, CPR, Shaw)
2. Edmonton (Government, Finance, Technology, The Brick, Bioware)
3. Winnipeg (Government, Transportation, GreatWest Life)
4. Victoria (Government - probably the weakest corporate presence, maybe Vista Broadcast from Courtnay?))
5. York Region (Magna, Honda, Mobilicity, Ganz)
6. Hamilton (Stelco, Dofasco)
7. Halifax (Bell Aliant, NS Power, Jazz Air, Government)

A further Wiki search shows these other Canadian cities with multiple or major Corporate HQs that could probably support Div 1 soccer:

1. Brampton (Loblaws, Hudson's Bay)
2. Burnaby (Telus, Balard Power, EA Canada)
3. Kelowna (FortisBC, Sun Rype, Koingo Software)
4. Kitchener-Waterloo (Colt Weapons, Dare Foods, Blackberry, technology) 
5. Laval (Circle K, Valeant Pharma etc)
6. London (Financial, London Life, Goodlife Fitness)
7. Mississauga (Cotts, IMAX, Winners, Second Cup)
8. Oakville (Ford, Tim Hortons, Financial)
9. Ottawa (Software, Corel, Shopify, Giant Tiger, GOVERNMENT)
10. Quebec City (Government, Financial, )
11. Regina (Government, SaskTel, SaskPower, TransGas)
12. Saskatoon (Potash Corp, Mining, Biotech)
13. St. John's (Fortis, Bowring)
14. Saint John (Irving Oil, Moosehead, JDI)
15. Windsor (Chrysler)

A further Wiki search shows these other Canadian cities with Corp HQs that could probably front lower tier soccer::

1. Barrie (The Source)
2. Belleville (Black Diamond Cheese)
3. Brantford (New York Fries)
4. Cambridge (Lystek)
5. Charlottetown (PEI Insurance)
6. Delta (Choices Market)
7. Fredericton (Government, McCain Foods?)
8. Fort McMurray (Syncrude)
9. Guelph (Sleeman's)
10. Langley (Save-on-Foods, Pharmasave)
11. Longueuil (Pratt & Whitney)
12. Medicine Hat (Kodiak Coil)
13. Oshawa (GM)
14. Prince Albert (Transwest Air)
15. Prince George (Forestry)
16. Sault-Ste-Marie (OLG)
17. Surrey (Frozen Mountain)
18. Vernon (Kal Tire, Tolko)

Unfortunately no Moncton, but that's 40 communities with a significant Corporate presence. Some companies have a national footprint and could sponsor aspects of the league, not just teams. Jersey sponsorship is going to be interesting if this league takes off.

Not just about HQs, just corporate presences and Moncton has it

Edited March 12, 2019 by Ansem

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, fmfranck said:

Moncton have had some of its HQs recently acquired by other companies, but they still have a few : 

• Major Drilling Group International
• Medavie Blue cross

I dont think HQ is the be-all and end-all of making a team profitable. It is a well-known fact that IMFC have had a hard time attracting corporate dollars, but they can still survive in the MLS market. 

 

 

Montreal has had a very bad leadership structure, bad leadership and bad marketing overall, something that the journalists that are in love with them have been saying for years.

With Saputo naming a president for the club and stepping away, this is actually the FIRST time that Montreal will have a sound professional front office structure. That on it's own should help turn things around significantly. Can't do worse than Saputo.

Unfortunately for them (fortunately for Laval), it's almost over a decade of time that was wasted by their inability to penetrate the suburbs and the rest of the province. Now that they might get their act together, CPL Laval is imminent and Quebec City is a matter of time...

[Sébastien]

Question on D2.

Seems like most people are in favour of D2 being national in scale as well.

Considering that, how would D2 in Canada be economically feasible, if most of your revenues are expected to go down, but your travel expenses, which are pretty hefty, stay the same?

Legitimately asking. I assume Russia has pro/rel? How do they manage that aspect of things? Any other country with similar geographical challenges?

***EDIT***

Thinking of this is a world where I don't think Moncton would be a great candidate for D1, but likely for D2, and wondering how they would keep up with travel expenses if they have to go out West that often.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Sébastien

[Ansem]

50 minutes ago, Sébastien said:

Considering that, how would D2 in Canada be economically feasible, if most of your revenues are expected to go down, but your travel expenses, which are pretty hefty, stay the same?

Deals like MediaPro helps where the money trickles down to all level. That's the kind of revenue that a D2 would absolutely need. CSB bundling everything together is key here as everyone can count on recurring revenues. 

The league talk about "as soon as 2026 or when 16 clubs have joined".

Realistically, it has to be post 2026, after the "high of the world Cup", combined with an increase in population, success of the CPL and right before the deal with MediaPro ends in 2029 when they enter in negotiations for a new media deal where they will be looking to cash in.

If CPL is successful, they will be able to cash in on the next media deal which could be "pyramidal" by bundling all the tiers and National team (a good team drives up the value) and good V Cup together.

The success of CPL, a World Cup, a good national team could have implemented the "soccer culture" needed for a National D2 to work in smaller market. You need that culture for smaller areas to still drive an average of 5k fans a game on average. We clearly don't have that in 2019 but in 2026-2029? Very possible but it starts with CPL culminating to a 2026 World Cup with a team getting us into the round of 16.

Until you have the conditions above and then some, heavier corporate/sponsor investments, I don't see D2 happening in my opinion.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Ansem

[ChrisinOrleans]

22 hours ago, fmfranck said:

Question : do you think franco ontarians would get behind a Gatineau team? Those 290k would be a nice boost to the 330k possible fanbase in Gatineau. And you'd get a "better" corporate presence at the same time. 

Depends. There are what I would call "soft Francos" who identify more as "Franco-Ontarian" than "Canadien-Francais", and they're pretty loyal to Ottawa teams, especially the uOttawa Gee-Gees and La Cité Coyotes. Same thing as Acadians with the team at U de Moncton.

I mean, if Gatineau got a team and the alternative was the Fury, you'd quickly find me a fan of Gatineau. 

Also, the beer is much, much better in Gatineau, so yeah, I'd be all about this. 

And Gatineau actually has a ton of big companies based in their downtown (I work for one) and tons of people - especially Franco-Ontarians - cross the border every day. 

[SthMelbRed]

On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 3:07 AM, Rocket Robin said:

Maybe setting up a cheap pun for the team name  'Riel Manitoba'  

Too hipster, mate (or maybe, not enough). I'd go for the traditional, North American naming convention...

Red River Rebels, come on down!

[Initial B]

17 hours ago, Ansem said:

Deals like MediaPro helps where the money trickles down to all level. That's the kind of revenue that a D2 would absolutely need. CSB bundling everything together is key here as everyone can count on recurring revenues. 

<snip>

The success of CPL, a World Cup, a good national team could have implemented the "soccer culture" needed for a National D2 to work in smaller market. You need that culture for smaller areas to still drive an average of 5k fans a game on average. We clearly don't have that in 2019 but in 2026-2029? Very possible but it starts with CPL culminating to a 2026 World Cup with a team getting us into the round of 16.

Until you have the conditions above and then some, heavier corporate/sponsor investments, I don't see D2 happening in my opinion.

I would agree with this, but it got me thinking: If there is a Salary Cap in place (or some form of the UEFA Financial Fair Play rules), then there would be no need for Pro-Rel because of "any given Sunday" and all that, depending on their fortunes of the year. But if the salary rules are relaxed, Div 1 would be for the elite clubs that can pay and the Div 2 clubs would be for those trying to make it on a lower budget. If the media rights go across all levels, maybe that would mitigate the effects of a drop.

As for travel, I think Div 2 should be a bridge between the Regional Div 3 level and the National Div 1 level. Teams at Div 2 should probably expect to play every Div 2 team at least once, which would require cross-country travel. However the remainder of their games should probably be played against teams within their geographical group or conference, each similar in area to the D3 League immediately below it in the Pyramid. Promotion would be decided by Playoffs only.

As for entry fees, I think they should remain static, even as entries get pushed down to Div 2 or even Div 3 as apposed to MLS model raising the cost higher and higher as they add more teams to an increasingly unwieldy structure. 

[Impactsupporter]

On 3/11/2019 at 5:41 PM, Initial B said:

Sigh. Fine. Here's a closer to final state that I could see the league becoming Circa 2040. This should include just about every possible location for a club.

Yesterday, I showed this to a soccer coach in my hometown on the south Shore of Montreal (name and town withheld by request) and he said that VERY FEW of these cities outside of D1 will have the budgets to travel coast to coast.

I agree that the D1 should have 14 teams BUT I still favor splitting them up into 2 groups of 7 with pro rel between them (but not the D2 or D3) modelled after the Currie Cup : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currie_Cup

OR you could model the D2 and D3 after this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.League

Just a thought.

[Initial B]

22 minutes ago, Impactsupporter said:

Yesterday, I showed this to a soccer coach in my hometown on the south Shore of Montreal (name and town withheld by request) and he said that VERY FEW of these cities outside of D1 will have the budgets to travel coast to coast.

I agree that the D1 should have 14 teams BUT I still favor splitting them up into 2 groups of 7 with pro rel between them (but not the D2 or D3) modelled after the Currie Cup : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currie_Cup

OR you could model the D2 and D3 after this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.League

Just a thought.

That's exactly why Div 2 Clubs would only play games within their own region in the chart you quoted. The geographic catchments for each of those leagues would be similar to those used by the Canadian Hockey League (OHL = L1O, QMJHL = PLSQ, WHL = yet to be formed League). The only out-of-Region play would occur between the playoff teams to determine promotion to Div 1. There probably should be some mechanism to allow Champion Div 2 clubs the ability to decline promotion if they feel it would place too much of a financial strain on the club. Also, remember that list is a structure for 20 years from now. After 20 years of MLS, there were 20 First Division clubs and 11 Second Division clubs and 28 Third Division clubs. It is also worthwhile to note that the National Div 2 League pretty much died soon after and was replaced by a Regional Div 2 League.

I think a B.league-type conference system could work for first division, but the CPL has been pretty adamant that they are going to be single table.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Initial B

[ted]

1 hour ago, Impactsupporter said:

Yesterday, I showed this to a soccer coach in my hometown on the south Shore of Montreal (name and town withheld by request) and he said that VERY FEW of these cities outside of D1 will have the budgets to travel coast to coast.

Oh well, if Jacques Smith from the South Shore Shooters U14 "B" team says it, it must be true!

?

 

[Vince193]

I don't like the idea of Div 2 being regional. That's too high of a level. I'd rather it start at D3.

[Shortdutchcanuck]

10 minutes ago, Vince193 said:

I don't like the idea of Div 2 being regional. That's too high of a level. I'd rather it start at D3.

I don't know if it's a matter of preference. 

Just the reality of Canada.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Shortdutchcanuck

[matty]

32 minutes ago, Vince193 said:

I don't like the idea of Div 2 being regional. That's too high of a level. I'd rather it start at D3.

Australia would like a word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Premier_Leagues

[Unnamed Trialist]

21 hours ago, Ansem said:

Deals like MediaPro helps where the money trickles down to all level. That's the kind of revenue that a D2 would absolutely need. CSB bundling everything together is key here as everyone can count on recurring revenues. 

The league talk about "as soon as 2026 or when 16 clubs have joined".

Realistically, it has to be post 2026, after the "high of the world Cup", combined with an increase in population, success of the CPL and right before the deal with MediaPro ends in 2029 when they enter in negotiations for a new media deal where they will be looking to cash in.

If CPL is successful, they will be able to cash in on the next media deal which could be "pyramidal" by bundling all the tiers and National team (a good team drives up the value) and good V Cup together.

The success of CPL, a World Cup, a good national team could have implemented the "soccer culture" needed for a National D2 to work in smaller market. You need that culture for smaller areas to still drive an average of 5k fans a game on average. We clearly don't have that in 2019 but in 2026-2029? Very possible but it starts with CPL culminating to a 2026 World Cup with a team getting us into the round of 16.

Until you have the conditions above and then some, heavier corporate/sponsor investments, I don't see D2 happening in my opinion.

I am also of the opinion that once you consolidate 12-14 teams in a D1, D2 may not be such a high priority. And it'll be hard to have a league structure worrying about setting up a D2 with less money, more financial headaches, weaker stadium structure, fan base, and so on.

It might make sense for the CSA and CPL together to get every province or region up to par with Québec and Ontario for a stronger semi-pro structure on that level.

What might be higher priority, in fact, is to have academy structures for CPL teams, since development always goes better if there is a pro club behind it, as an international norm (your Sigmas, however effective in Canada, are outliers). 

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, matty said:

Australia would like a word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Premier_Leagues

When I went to Perth, my round trip flight from Sidney to Perth was roughly half of what it cost to get from PEI to BC.

[Tigers]

5 hours ago, Impactsupporter said:

agree that the D1 should have 14 teams BUT I still favor splitting them up into 2 groups of 7 with pro rel between them (but not the D2 or D3) modelled after the Currie Cup

If you're getting relegated out the top 7, then your next 7 IS division 2 by definition, no?

[Kent]

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I am also of the opinion that once you consolidate 12-14 teams in a D1, D2 may not be such a high priority. And it'll be hard to have a league structure worrying about setting up a D2 with less money, more financial headaches, weaker stadium structure, fan base, and so on.

It might make sense for the CSA and CPL together to get every province or region up to par with Québec and Ontario for a stronger semi-pro structure on that level.

What might be higher priority, in fact, is to have academy structures for CPL teams, since development always goes better if there is a pro club behind it, as an international norm (your Sigmas, however effective in Canada, are outliers). 

You touched on something I thought of a while back that I had forgotten about. For div 2 in my opinion the ideal scenario (assuming there aren't tons of teams looking to jump to CPL all at the same time) might be to fill up the div 3 level, and then when enough of those teams are interested in taking the next step, create a div 2 and promote up to it from div 3 (of course with a chance at promotion to CPL from there).

It would be a bit clunky for CPL to go from a 15 team league down to an 8 team league after the 16th team joins and it splits into D1 and D2. Even a 10 - 6 split would be tough to handle. However, if we get to 15 teams and have a D3 league or two west of Ontario, and possibly one east of Quebec, then maybe we can have say 4 D3 teams across the country interested in moving up to D2, 1 expansion team that would have otherwise gone to CPL, and maybe relegate one from CPL if need be, and then you've got 14 teams still in D1 and 6 in D2. Then try to grow the D2 from there (either through big pocketed expansion, or promotion from D3 without relegation down) and the days of teams waltzing straight into CPL are over.

Basically, stockpile teams in D3 until you have enough to make the jump without poaching too much from D1. Of course this is still heavily reliant on massive growth, in particular at the D3 level, but it's a nice little dream in my opinion.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Kent
pronoun mistake

[C2SKI]

I don't understand why CPL clubs aren't establishing youth teams to compete in local leagues. It would help them connect with the local soccer community, and it would help them keep an eye on local talent. I don't see the harm. They wouldn't need to invest much money into it. Just run it like all the other local clubs. Hell, just adopt one of the local clubs and run it the same way. 

Thoughts?

Edited March 14, 2019 by C2SKI

[Ansem]

22 minutes ago, C2SKI said:

I don't understand why CPL clubs aren't establishing youth teams to compete in local leagues. It would help them connect with the local soccer community, and it would help them keep an eye on local talent. I don't see the harm. They wouldn't need to invest much money into it. Just run it like all the other local clubs. Hell, just adopt one of the local clubs and run it the same way. 

Thoughts?

You mean this?

[Initial B]

I've been doing some thinking about the purpose of the CPL. My son is always trying to play at the highest level in order to play against the best. The more clubs you have a top level, the more diluted the product becomes. If CPL kept Div 1 small (8-10 clubs), then theoretically the best players would gravitate towards those Div 1 clubs, refining the level of play faster and faster. Those that couldn't keep up would get relegated to Div 2 until they could take another run at playing with the best. With 6 Canadians guaranteed to start on each club, an 8-team Div 1 would have 48 players playing at the highest level outside MLS.

Additionally, my research showed that many of the best nations have leagues where they relegate 20% of the teams from Div 1 every season. If an 8-club Div 1 relegated 2 clubs per season, that would be a 25% changeover. Imagine the stresses to perform on the players in those clubs where if you aren't playing for a title, you're fighting off relegation. There would be no middle ground.

Those nation's with second divisions, getting promoted almost invariably involve playoffs - usually the first team in a single table is automatically promoted, but there are usually playoffs for the spots below. As CPL adds more teams, having a fluid Div 2 structure would allow those teams to learn the ropes at a lower level while keeping the format stable at the top, so fans, players, and media alike all know the annual dates for all important events and matches.

Sorry for the rambling post - my stream of consciousness thinking is going off on all sorts of tangents lately regarding the CPL.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Initial B

[C2SKI]

51 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You mean this?

?‍♂️ haha I'm glad some clubs are listening 

45 minutes ago, Initial B said:

The more clubs you have a top level, the more diluted the product becomes. If CPL kept Div 1 small (8-10 clubs), then theoretically the best players would gravitate towards those Div 1 clubs, refining the level of play faster and faster.

As it's a global market, I'm not sure that dilution of the talent pool is a major determinant of overall quality. There are plenty of Canadians playing abroad right now that could improve the quality of this league. I think that the ability to retain and attract talent might be more important, and to do that, you need revenue. To increase revenue, you may need more than 8 teams in your top division. I don't know. Dilution of the fan base probably plays a role too. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by C2SKI

[Impactsupporter]

8 hours ago, Tigers said:

If you're getting relegated out the top 7, then your next 7 IS division 2 by definition, no?

You can say that it COULD be defined as a d2 BUT these teams will still be under the CPL banner, just 2 groups Group A and Group B, or Leaders and Legends, Beast and Least, whatever.

[dyslexic nam]

5 hours ago, Impactsupporter said:

You can say that it COULD be defined as a d2 BUT these teams will still be under the CPL banner, just 2 groups Group A and Group B, or Leaders and Legends, Beast and Least, whatever.

You can call it whatever you want, but if you have a pro-real mechanism between two tiered pools of teams, the lower/relegated division is pretty much a de facto D2.  In England they refer to it as "the Championship" - but it is still D2.  Everything else is just semantics.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

Setting up a D2 will have a lot to do with scheduling. It is where you put teams in waiting for eventually entering the D1, plus others with no intention to do so.

As we sit, we have designed a schedule for 8 teams, seeing every team twice home and away, 7x4 = 28 games. An eighth team rounds that out. A ninth team takes us to 32 games in a season. A tenth, to 36. That is already maxing out if you want a balanced schedule, because we do not have the weather to stretch things much more, and want to avoid excess midday matches. But it is possible.

After ten teams, and up to 13 or so, you have a bit of a headache. You are almost certainly forced to think about a regular season and then a championship round, or add playoffs, or go to a very unbalanced schedule. 

At  about 14 you can once again redraw a balanced home and away schedule with 26 league matches. Maybe the earlier Cup rounds add fixtures. But you are at least close to what current teams are offering their fans, 14+1. Reducing a match or two is no tragedy, you can always do a guaranteed friendly vs a visiting team, for example, or a team can do a pre-season tournament. 

So I am proposing that a D2 is a sort of holding league for future D1 teams, and for others who do not see it viable to make a move into D1 but could conceive competiting in a lower tier. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by Unnamed Trialist