CPL new teams speculation

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Can understand why a team called TFC II is viewed as a complete no go and I think USL were crazy to ever allow that, but if there is different branding involved and players can only move between the two leagues during transfer windows, it's definitely better to have the top MLS academy prospects playing in Canada than in USL 1, so that everybody is pushing in the same direction.

[Ansem]

13 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Can understand why a team called TFC II is viewed as a complete no go and I think USL were crazy to ever allow that, but if there is different branding involved and players can only move between the two leagues during transfer windows, it's definitely better to have the top MLS academy prospects playing in Canada than in USL 1, so that everybody is pushing in the same direction.

Lol! Why are you doing this to me?

I thought you'd like what I wrote, yet you're talking MLS academy prospect in CPL. If they are smart (pretty sure they are), they would find a way to avoid that. By cutting out Kilmer Sports and having Rogers and Bell creating a separate entity to run the CPL side 100% independently from TFC is the only course of action here.

Meaning, it wouldn't be about the CPL side waiting to get TFC prospect at the transfer window. They would run completely separately with CPL having a massive say / screening of who would run it...someone who's all in in CPL and had little to no prior history or affiliation with MLS or TFC. TFC prospect could find their way onto that team, but only if whoever runs it sees it as a plus for his team, not because he's helping out TFC

It goes much farther than just rebranding. Can't see CPL wanting any less than this.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Ansem

[yellowsweatygorilla]

33 minutes ago, Ansem said:

 

  That's starting to make some sense.

That's a massive difference than the 1st pitch of dumping TFC III... later corrected to TFC II

MLSE major stakeholders are Bell and Rogers. If CPL can put in a contract that MLSE must have an independent manager for the CPL side and that TFC has ZERO say, it can work.

Bell & Rogers just wants profits, they likely don't give a crap about a "preference" between CPL and MLS as long as it makes money and increase value for them. That would also increase the likelihood of seeing CPL on TV as both shareholder will want their property on TV.

That's a HUGE difference here.

***Add: CPL could insist that Bell and Rogers be the sole owners leaving Kilmer Sports out of it under a new company created for the CPL team only to avoid conflict of interest. If that's the case. YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

***Also have to think that the media deal and the quality of the production had a huge effect in getting the telecoms attention. That's more content for their plateform and more opportunity to promote themselves via the league...coast to coast. This is 100% a business decision, not a sport decision like the 1st pitch.

So start speculating

Where?

1. Sharing BMO?
2. Revamped Varsity, Downtown Toronto?
3. York University once York 9 leaves?
4. Downsview Park, North York team?
5. London?

Ok, you got me really excited at the possibilities.

Ideally though, I'd want them in London. Not sure I think the league is ready for a Toronto team right so soon (competition w/ York and Toronto FC) - maybe when the league matures in 5 years.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

https://mobile.twitter.com/24thminute/status/1099107921328140288

This other tweet about having 100 players under pro contract soon suggests the CanPL thing might happen quickly.

[Ansem]

31 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/24thminute/status/1099107921328140288

This other tweet about having 100 players under pro contract soon suggests the CanPL thing might happen quickly.

Or the most likely answer... they want to be Chelsea 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Can understand why a team called TFC II is viewed as a complete no go and I think USL were crazy to ever allow that, but if there is different branding involved and players can only move between the two leagues during transfer windows, it's definitely better to have the top MLS academy prospects playing in Canada than in USL 1, so that everybody is pushing in the same direction.

Better for MLS! That would make CPL a development league for MLS. If they do that, CPL will fail. Players that play in CPL need to be contracted to CPL, not MLS. If a CPL player does well and MLS wants him, they will have to pony up.

CPL must also be smart enough to not allow a CPL owner to also be an MLS owner. That would create an ipso facto conflict of interest. Even dealings that are fair would be questioned. As I said above, imagine the CPL team "negotiating" a transfer fee with the MLS team: people would cry foul no matter what number was decided.

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by dsqpr

[matty]

i'm not against an mls owner owning/funding a cpl team (various people own clubs all over the world. like isn't bob funding hfx on top of owning forge?) but there needs to be a hard line preventing their mls management from being overly involved with the cpl team and vice versa. i'm fine with stuff like graduating a coach or loaning a player to a team, those happen between teams with shared owners often, but excess/abuse shouldn't be allowed.

given the mls/canadian relationship, harsher restrictions should be in place

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

It's an interesting contrast how nobody bats an eyelid on this development team angle when Rob Gale says he is heading off to England to secure an affiliation with a Premiership club. If it wasn't in the GTA and there was an attempt to cater to the local market as well as bring in graduating academy prospects it could work well. Bear in mind TFC already have affiliations in place in an L1O context in London and Windsor, and that league is now owned by CanPL.

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[matty]

Just now, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

It's an interesting contrast how nobody bats an eyelid on this development team angle when Rob Gale says he is heading off to England to secure an affiliation with a Premiership club. If it wasn't in the GTA and there was an attempt to cater to the local market as well as bring in graduating academy prospects it could work well. Bear in mind TFC already have affiliations in place in an L1O context in London and Windsor, and that league is now owned by CanPL.

the optics of the relationship is different between partnering with an epl team and mls team for a cpl team. one comes with the perceived  label of being a "minor league affiliate" while the other is largely seen a neutral due to canadian sports history and relation to american leagues while we mostly don't have one with european leagues.

the worry about mls affiliation is fair. while i think an mls owner could be good for the league (with restrictions) i totally get why people have issue with it when compared to say an elp owner.

[shamrock]

2 hours ago, dsqpr said:

Better for MLS! That would make CPL a development league for MLS. If they do that, CPL will fail. Players that play in CPL need to be contracted to CPL, not MLS. If a CPL player does well and MLS wants him, they will have to pony up.

CPL must also be smart enough to not allow a CPL owner to also be an MLS owner. That would create an ipso facto conflict of interest. Even dealings that are fair would be questioned. As I said above, imagine the CPL team "negotiating" a transfer fee with the MLS team: people would cry foul no matter what number was decided.

 

So you don't want the better Canadiens to play in Canada? I would, and the way to get there seems less relevant. 

[1996]

5 hours ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

Ok, you got me really excited at the possibilities.

Ideally though, I'd want them in London. Not sure I think the league is ready for a Toronto team right so soon (competition w/ York and Toronto FC) - maybe when the league matures in 5 years.

Put a team in London or even Windsor , Toronto area already has York 9 , let’s see how they do in the Toronto market before you think of putting another team in the Toronto area. Not too many sports have been successful in Toronto other than  TFC, Leafs, Raptors and the Jays . Junior hockey has struggled in the Toronto area  with teams in downtown Toronto, Mississauga and Brampton. Therefore, York 9 has a challenge in front of them so let them build a following before they have to also start competing for fans with another or other CPL teams in the Toronto area . Let York 9 grow and build  a fan base . The CPL should be focused in trying to put teams in places like London or Windsor for now before putting more teams in the Toronto area if they want to put more teams in Ontario. Give York 9 a few years and see how they do, if they are successful then start thinking of putting more teams in the Toronto area but for now I think York 9 is adequate for that market when it comes to the Toronto and the surrounding area.

Edited February 23, 2019 by 1996

[DigzTFC]

Just few thoughts on possible negotiations points:

• No TFC/MLS branding allowed including colors of team/brand, in stadium, and sponsorship - team colors have to be completely different (ex orange, green etc.)
• MLSE Foundation can be the charity organization of choice to run 50/50 in the Ontario Region.
• MLSE Foundation can be a major league sponsor along with Rogers and Bell
• Access to TV distribution on CBC/TSN/Sportsnet with Rogers & Bell.
• 51%+ local ownership of the CanPL team - MLSE can have a minority stake.
• Can buy stakes into multiple teams but not within the same Province.
• CanPl will honor FIFA payments to youth club development
• TFC will have a better chance to recoup academy investment from sell on players that don't make the first team.
• Management of CanPL clubs will not have TFC Management involvement save for the shareholders agreement to have a spot(s) on the Board of Directors proportional with ownership

Thoughts?

Edited February 23, 2019 by DigzTFC

[Initial B]

12 hours ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

Ideally though, I'd want them in London. Not sure I think the league is ready for a Toronto team right so soon (competition w/ York and Toronto FC) - maybe when the league matures in 5 years.

What about Oshawa? They have a Civic stadium that holds 2000 right now that they could upgrade to meet the standards.

[yellowsweatygorilla]

44 minutes ago, Initial B said:

What about Oshawa? They have a Civic stadium that holds 2000 right now that they could upgrade to meet the standards.

Yep, Durham region would be interesting. Doesn't Junior Hockey do well there?

[Sébastien]

The part I hate the most about the USL is the MLS farm teams and club affiliation system. I really hope CPL turns away any TFC involvement in the league. It would make things suddenly a lot less palatable.

If Rogers or Bell want to independently own a club, then fine, I guess. But it shouldn't be TFC or MLSE, full stop.

Even then, I would be cringing every time I heard of any transfer or loan between both clubs. I don't like any of this, even if you try to masquarade the ownership structure by banning the use of TFC colours or brand.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, shamrock said:

So you don't want the better Canadiens to play in Canada? I would, and the way to get there seems less relevant. 

The most important thing is that CPL maintains its credibility. Even so much as a hint of subservience to MLS would destroy it. (And the fact it has a smaller budget does not make it subservient, whereas dodgy player "promotions" to MLS without the appropriate fee most certainly would.)

I want Canadian players to all play at the highest level possible. CPL will of course provide lots of new opportunity for aspiring Canadian players.

[DigzTFC]

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/sports-pmn/toronto-fcs-pursuit-of-spanish-midfielder-alejandro-pozuelo-nears-crunch-time

Manning also confirmed that he has talked to Scott Mitchell, CEO of Canadian Soccer Business, about TFC owner Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment possibly becoming involved with the new Canadian Premier League.

A CPL team could function as another vehicle for players under contract to TFC.

“Is there a place within the CPL where MLSE could own a team? … The CPL clearly by the players that they’ve brought in, it’s going to be very much a league with young Canadian talent which we have an abundance of. It may be a fit,” said Manning.

He said the talks are very “initial, exploratory” at this point.

“But I can tell you that’s more than six months ago where there was zero communication,” he added. “I think it’s something that we’re both kind of opening up and saying ‘Hey maybe it’s better to work together than not work together.”‘

 

[Ansem]

Sounds like the old narrative of trying to push their agenda into the league..  putting a team with young players under contract with TFC.

Oh well... the league won't accept that or should they

[Initial B]

MLSE having a CPL team they own, or TFC loaning out dozens of players to CPL teams - what's the difference so long as Canadian talent is getting developed?

[JamboAl]

Can someone explain to me why MLSE or any other organization would not be allowed to field a team in the CPL?  What’s the difference if the Man City group wanted to set up a team somewhere as a farm team for NYCFC?  Would that be not okay as well?  I ask because it is a slippery slope.  Would be happy to understand the rationale.

[dyslexic nam]

The reason has been discussed many times before.  An TFC-owned CPL club could easily give the league a farm team feel.  If TFC uses it as a B squad, it sends an absolutely clear message that CPL is subservient to MLS.  And make no mistake - it is absolutely in MLSE's interest to send that message to protect/enhance its most valuable footy propert - TFC.  Many on here think that the downsides of enabling that sort of farm league identity far outweigh the benefit of having one more stable (and likely well-funded) team in the league - especially if it is in a GTA market that will already have some solid CPL teams. 

Mu point is that an independently run club that is owned by MLSE and isn't allowed to just freely move players to/from TFC without limits might still work.  Not for sure - but might.  And I have a great deal of confidence that the folks in charge of the league are well aware of all the implications of letting that sort of club in the league, and will take appropriate measures to safeguard the league.

[JamboAl]

10 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

The reason has been discussed many times before.  An TFC-owned CPL club could easily give the league a farm team feel.  If TFC uses it as a B squad, it sends an absolutely clear message that CPL is subservient to MLS.  And make no mistake - it is absolutely in MLSE's interest to send that message to protect/enhance its most valuable footy propert - TFC.  Many on here think that the downsides of enabling that sort of farm league identity far outweigh the benefit of having one more stable (and likely well-funded) team in the league - especially if it is in a GTA market that will already have some solid CPL teams. 

Mu point is that an independently run club that is owned by MLSE and isn't allowed to just freely move players to/from TFC without limits might still work.  Not for sure - but might.  And I have a great deal of confidence that the folks in charge of the league are well aware of all the implications of letting that sort of club in the league, and will take appropriate measures to safeguard the league.

I understand and it is a fine line.  Maybe my line is quite a bit different from others. I don’t have a problem with MLSE (or anyone else that passes the “smell test”) own a club in the CPL. The Pozzo family owns several clubs in Europe (including Watford and audience) and Red Bull own Salzburg and Leipzig as well as NYRB.  

BTW, it doesn’t mean I like it at all but that is today’s business environment and what  would make the CPL be so unique to not allow common ownership with an MLS team as long as there are safeguards and transfer transactions between the CPL side and the MLS side.  (And which I know can and will be manipulated but that’s the state of the football business today unfortunately)

[Sébastien]

4 hours ago, JamboAl said:

I understand and it is a fine line.  Maybe my line is quite a bit different from others. I don’t have a problem with MLSE (or anyone else that passes the “smell test”) own a club in the CPL. The Pozzo family owns several clubs in Europe (including Watford and audience) and Red Bull own Salzburg and Leipzig as well as NYRB.  

BTW, it doesn’t mean I like it at all but that is today’s business environment and what  would make the CPL be so unique to not allow common ownership with an MLS team as long as there are safeguards and transfer transactions between the CPL side and the MLS side.  (And which I know can and will be manipulated but that’s the state of the football business today unfortunately)

For me, it's pretty simple: I want the number one objective for every team to be to win, and all of their actions to be aimed towards that goal.

When a player does really well, I want the club to try to re-sign him, or sell him for max value to reinvest in the club. Not just transfer to the bigger mother team.

When you're looking at rounding out the roster, I want the club to look everywhere for the best player available, not just take wtv player the mother team wants to see get more minutes.

Finally, North American sports having so much experience with farm teams (AHL, AAA baseball and the D-League), I am concerned of measures that could encourage such a perception of the CPL. Most know that the league won't be as good as MLS, which is fine, as long as they do their own thing. If a formal-ish link between the two exists, it could feed the AHL-light perception.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, JamboAl said:

Can someone explain to me why MLSE or any other organization would not be allowed to field a team in the CPL?  What’s the difference if the Man City group wanted to set up a team somewhere as a farm team for NYCFC?  Would that be not okay as well?  I ask because it is a slippery slope.  Would be happy to understand the rationale.

Sure. I think we all know that the CPL project is high risk and needs to be done right or it will fail. So what does it have going for it? What will make it appeal to Joe Average Canadian sports fan? The fact that it is CANADIAN, that is what! It will be the Championship of Canada, and the place where we can watch promising Canadian youngsters develop. That is a major hook. To be seen as a development minor league for an American major league would besmirch the most important thing the CPL has going for it and the resulting apathy would be fatal.

What is the main difference between Man City and TFC? Only one of them is located in Canada! If you let TFC have even a hint of a "farm team" connection to CPL, you effectively establish MLS as the major league in Canada and CPL as a minor league and you are screwed. You do not have this perception problem with Man City.

Also, let us not downplay the way Canadians feel about the US. The fact of the matter is, even if MLS did not have any franchises located in Canada, CPL would still be significantly harmed by any perception of being subservient to an American league. Joe Average Canadian sports fan just would not like it. And in order to succeed, the league needs the support of Joe Average Canadian sports fan.

Edited February 24, 2019 by dsqpr

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

52 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

Sure. I think we all know that the CPL project is high risk and needs to be done right or it will fail. So what does it have going for it? What will make it appeal to Joe Average Canadian sports fan? The fact that it is CANADIAN, that is what! It will be the Championship of Canada, and the place where we can watch promising Canadian youngsters develop. That is a major hook....

If that was enough to make it work, we would be discussing the Winnipeg Fury's thirty-third season on here rather than the Valour's first. It took MLS expansion into Canada to make pro soccer finally work as an investment and for the mainstream media to take it seriously and MLS isn't going to suddenly leave.

The key to success is that the soccer on offer has to provide an entertainment product that fans want to actually pay to watch year after year. It will be interesting to see how fans in cities like Winnipeg and Calgary that have NHL and CFL teams and have largely ignored PDL as being too low quality respond to what will be on offer this summer.

 Regardless of whether there are going to be any MLS affiliations in future the quality of CanPL is still going to be very minor league in comparison to what soccer fans can easily access on cable or online nowadays, so it's difficult to predict what provides enough to capture the imagination of a viable fan base on an ongoing basis. Hopefully it will work. We'll find out over the next 12 months.

Edited February 24, 2019 by BringBackTheBlizzard