Mark-Anthony Kaye

[Obinna]

8 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

I'm not disputing the fact that foreign powers meddle with certain populaces and will even grant that that has been ratched up five or six notches over the last 32 months.  Nor am I disputing the fact that people will ignore this for convenience sake.

@Bigandy Put aside his "guarantee" and this is what SpursFlu was getting at, I believe. Nothing to do with meddling with the CMNT specifically.

Many people have been suggesting for a while that China and Russia are both actively engaged in this, as part of their information warfare against NATO/Western World. 

[Obinna]

34 minutes ago, jonovision said:

Excuse my naiveté, but to me anyone who is both:

1. one of the tens of thousands of people that knows what Mark-Anthony Kaye did during a Canada match
2. sending him racial abuse on line, whether directly or through a bot or proxy

is also both a follower of Canadian soccer and a racist. There's a lot of mental hoops one needs to jump through to imagine otherwise.

There's not a lot of division to be sown by heaping abuse on one of the less-known players on what is still a niche sport in this country.

Although such meddling is almost definitely happening elsewhere online, your assessment is probably correct that it isn't happening here. 

[Shway]

As someone who's been racially abused several times from a child all the way to my adult life, I can sympathize with MAK. Those words don't bother me the way they used to, or they won't trigger me. (Although being a father is a direct reason for changing the way I react) I will say these takes are shocking but also not surprising. It's the very same privilege that gets spoken about, talking from a place of no familiarity and blurred vision.

Typically it's been treated as a slap on the butt and you're just supposed to get over it. 
Typically it's supposed to be normal where it's just something you're suppose to accept it as a black man. 
Typically it's not supposed to effect you, and your weak if you allow it too.

Ultimately it's not okay, and ignoring one's feeling in this matter just shows that as society we still have lots of work to do, and hurt to undo. 

In this day and age its soooo easy to be behind the devices and say whatever you will and face no repercussions as long as you're behind a dummy account. It's usually the cowards, the brave ones who say this stuff in person are the ones who end up knocked out on the floor. 

But anyways crazy how this convo got here, but not surprised who brought it there.

Here's hoping Elon makes some strides to change this. Until then Mark, "shut up and dribble".

Edited November 9, 2022 by Shway

[Bigandy]

17 minutes ago, Obinna said:

@Bigandy Put aside his "guarantee" and this is what SpursFlu was getting at, I believe. Nothing to do with meddling with the CMNT specifically.

Many people have been suggesting for a while that China and Russia are both actively engaged in this, as part of their information warfare against NATO/Western World. 

I am confused. Is the claim that china and russia are getting involved with the CMNT/Kaye as a way to wage war on NATO? 

Or is the claim completely irrelevant to CMNT and kaye.  This too seems irrational because the order of claims would look like.
1. Kaye is racially abused.
2. spursflu says its fake because of foreign influence. 
3. China/russia must be behind the racial abuse of Kaye because that will show NATO. - This makes no sense. Why would racially abusing kaye impact NATO/western world. What is china's goal.... what do they gain. 

If Spursflu is saying the racial abuse is irrelavnt to CMNT then he is using the racial abuse directed at kaye to spin a conspiracy about some random broader narrative that isnt directly related to the issue we are talking about. Essentially saying - I know kaye was racially abused but its not real because china is trying to destroy nato. 

That's denying the victims story and also redirecting the focus to a new narrative instead of supporting MAK. This feels borderline condoning the racists and at the very least, disregarding and silencing MAK. 

@obinna I appreciate your effort to clear things up. However, if spursflu wants to make claims that are related to CMNT then i would love to hear some evidence/details about those claims. If spursflu wants to make claims about situations related to CMNT but then say it is not specific to the CMNT, then i think his other statements are very offensive to MAK. Either explanation, i think its nonsense and offensive. 

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, Shway said:

As someone who's been racially abused several times from a child all the way to my adult life, I will say these takes are shocking but also not surprising. It's the very same privilege that gets spoken about, talking from a place of no familiarity and blurred vision.

Typically it's been treated as a slap on the butt and you're just supposed to get over it. 
Typically it's supposed to be normal where it's just something you're suppose to accept it as a black man. 
Typically it's not supposed to effect you, and your weak if you allow it too.

Ultimately it's not okay, and ignoring one's feeling in this matter just shows that as society we still have lots of work to do, and hurt to undo. 

In this day and age its soooo easy to be behind the devices and say whatever you will and face no repercussions as long as you're behind a dummy account. It's usually the cowards, the brave ones who say this stuff in person are the ones who end up knocked out on the floor. 

But anyways crazy how this convo got there, but not surprised who brought it there.

Here's hoping Elon makes some strides to change this. 

You're right on a lot of that stuff brother, but I don't think @SpursFlu was ignoring anyones feelings here. Was he guilty of making connections where none exist? Probably. Call me naive if you want, but I don't think he was purposely trying to turn a blind eye to racism because he supports it or doesn't want to accept it's a problem in society, though it seemed that way. I think he is just more worried about how our society is being manipulated. 

That may speak to your point about him being privileged, but we focus on what we are concerned with. Truth is we don't know why foreign interference is higher on his list of concerns than racism, but it is. People of all races are concerned with racism, and rightfully so. Ditto for foreign interference. I personally don't judge someone for being concerned with one of these things over the other. They are both problems society faces. 

And if I can share my own perspective as someone who has also been discriminated against, my view is that you you can only control your own emotions and behavior at the end of the day. Elon can try and make cowards behind dummy accounts responsible for their actions, and hopefully he does, but at some point in your life you're going to run up against it, especially as a black man in this part of the world. Society should keep the pressure on of course, but we should look inward and understand the problem lies with the person dishing out the discrimination, not the person receiving it.

That's easier said than done, but I just want to double down on your post and stress that anyone on the receiving end should keep that in mind. 

Cheers!

[Cicero]

56 minutes ago, jonovision said:

Excuse my naiveté, but to me anyone who is both:

1. one of the tens of thousands of people that knows what Mark-Anthony Kaye did during a Canada match
2. sending him racial abuse on line, whether directly or through a bot or proxy

is also both a follower of Canadian soccer and a racist. There's a lot of mental hoops one needs to jump through to imagine otherwise.

There's not a lot of division to be sown by heaping abuse on one of the less-known players on what is still a niche sport in this country.

I'm not saying it was someone foreign, but it wouldn't be shocking. If discord is your intent, you'd be looking for anything that starts trending on twitter or other social media. Sports stirs people up in general, so you've probably got sports stories high on your list. A quick search shows this particular player has some history with social justice statements and is likely to react, so you've got yourself a winning combination for stirring up the shite. It may be low reward in terms of total attention, but it's also a very low investment of time for the stirrer.

Or it could be some stupid 13 year-old kid thinking he can get some laughs from friends by stirring up controversy. Who knows. Given that we'll never know, I don't understand why anyone pays attention to the nonsense. If I were a sports figure, I'd just turn it off and forget about it. And it isn't just black players that get abused. The Turing institute in Britain did a study earlier this year that showed Ronaldo was the most abused player on social media last season, by a fair margin, followed by Harry Maguire, then a list of other Man U players, of all races. https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/62390281

It's fine to say that 'it shouldn't ever happen'. Yeah, that's true. But as long as social media is anonymous, there'll always be someone out of the 5+ billion people on earth with access to the internet who posts this crap. Take away anonymity and almost all of it would go away.

[Obinna]

19 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I am confused. Is the claim that china and russia are getting involved with the CMNT/Kaye as a way to wage war on NATO? 

Or is the claim completely irrelevant to CMNT and kaye.  This too seems irrational because the order of claims would look like.
1. Kaye is racially abused.
2. spursflu says its fake because of foreign influence. 
3. China/russia must be behind the racial abuse of Kaye because that will show NATO. - This makes no sense. Why would racially abusing kaye impact NATO/western world. What is china's goal.... what do they gain. 

If Spursflu is saying the racial abuse is irrelavnt to CMNT then he is using the racial abuse directed at kaye to spin a conspiracy about some random broader narrative that isnt directly related to the issue we are talking about. Essentially saying - I know kaye was racially abused but its not real because china is trying to destroy nato. 

That's denying the victims story and also redirecting the focus to a new narrative instead of supporting MAK. This feels borderline condoning the racists and at the very least, disregarding and silencing MAK. 

@obinna I appreciate your effort to clear things up. However, if spursflu wants to make claims that are related to CMNT then i would love to hear some evidence/details about those claims. If spursflu wants to make claims about situations related to CMNT but then say it is not specific to the CMNT, then i think his other statements are very offensive to MAK. Either explanation, i think its nonsense and offensive. 

I totally get what you are saying. I can very clearly see why it comes off that way. I don't know @SpursFlu from a hole in the wall, so take this with a grain of salt, but I don't believe his intention (on this occasion) is to disrespect Kaye or deny his pain. I think he's just connecting dots where they may not exist. You can call that "spinning a conspiracy", but I don't think the driving force behind that "spinning" is a desire to excuse or defend racism, or deny that racism is a problem. I think the driving force is his fear concerning our society being manipulated. Call it paranoia if you'd like. Again, I don't know him personally so who is to say. Maybe I am just giving him the benefit of the doubt when I shouldn't. That's my read on it though.

As for the geopolitical stuff, it's a lot to explain here if you are unfamiliar with the subject, but in short we are moving from a America/NATO dominated world to a multipolar world, where the BRICKSS nations are pulling away and challenging Western hegemony. Information warfare (Russia and China) is just one aspect of this. There is also financial warfare and now even conventional warfare (in Ukraine). It's been going on for a while. I think @El Hombre is right that it's been ratcheting higher in recent years. It affects everyone to varying degrees. 

Specifically on the information warfare, it's an attempt to speed up the destabilization of the Western world, because they are at war with us, and it's death by a thousand cuts, some of those cuts being very small and seemingly inconsequential in isolation, but effective in the aggregate. I believe @SpursFlu thinks this particular incident is one of those small cuts, which sometimes go undetected by most people, but it could also be that he's hypersensitive to it and has confirmation bias around it, so he sees it when it isn't there. That doesn't mean it's not happening elsewhere though, just because he is wrong in this instance.

Hope that ramble makes some sense.

Cheers!

[VinceA]

Leave it to this board to take a simple feature on Kaye and the racial abuse he faced and turn it into this.

 

*gestures wildy*

 

Y'all need to touch some grass.

[GasPed]

I also have to add, one of the reasons some of us suspect that it could've been a bot rather than a real person is because we don't know and can't recall ever seeing a real person actually saying something like that.  That's not to say people like that don't exist, but I'll be honest, I've been alive for 60 years, and the last time I was called a racist name was over 50 years ago.  So while there may be people who actually say these things (and believe what they say), they are in my opinion very much in the minority.  Furthermore, I do suspect there are far more people who would post stuff like this for reasons (or an agenda) other than pure racism. 

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

I totally get what you are saying. I can very clearly see why it comes off that way. I don't know @SpursFlu from a hole in the wall, so take this with a grain of salt, but I don't believe his intention (on this occasion) is to disrespect Kaye or deny his pain. I think he's just connecting dots where they may not exist. You can call that "spinning a conspiracy", but I don't think the driving force behind that "spinning" is a desire to excuse or defend racism, or deny that racism is a problem. I think the driving force is his fear concerning our society being manipulated. Call it paranoia if you'd like. Again, I don't know him personally so who is to say. Maybe I am just giving him the benefit of the doubt when I shouldn't. That's my read on it though.

As for the geopolitical stuff, it's a lot to explain here if you are unfamiliar with the subject, but in short we are moving from a America/NATO dominated world to a multipolar world, where the BRICKSS nations are pulling away and challenging Western hegemony. Information warfare (Russia and China) is just one aspect of this. There is also financial warfare and now even conventional warfare (in Ukraine). It's been going on for a while. I think @El Hombre is right that it's been ratcheting higher in recent years. It affects everyone to varying degrees. 

Specifically on the information warfare, it's an attempt to speed up the destabilization of the Western world, because they are at war with us, and it's death by a thousand cuts, some of those cuts being very small and seemingly inconsequential in isolation, but effective in the aggregate. I believe @SpursFlu thinks this particular incident is one of those small cuts, which sometimes go undetected by most people, but it could also be that he's hypersensitive to it and has confirmation bias around it, so he sees it when it isn't there. That doesn't mean it's not happening elsewhere though, just because he is wrong in this instance.

Hope that ramble makes some sense.

Cheers!

Well thought out post! 

I don't think he is intentionally denying it either, however i do think that unintended consequences still exist and should be acknowledged regardless of your intent.   
Alot of what you said i agree with. I just find it troubling to see a racist act and right away deny the existence of it and then make wild connections that you cant substantiate. 

 

56 minutes ago, GasPed said:

I also have to add, one of the reasons some of us suspect that it could've been a bot rather than a real person is because we don't know and can't recall ever seeing a real person actually saying something like that.  That's not to say people like that don't exist, but I'll be honest, I've been alive for 60 years, and the last time I was called a racist name was over 50 years ago.  So while there may be people who actually say these things (and believe what they say), they are in my opinion very much in the minority.  Furthermore, I do suspect there are far more people who would post stuff like this for reasons (or an agenda) other than pure racism. 

It is great to hear that you havent experienced it, but anecdotal evidence isnt really the best way to base your claim. Go to a serie a game and see the bananas being thrown or monkey chants. Its not as rare as you may think it is... 

I always hear people claiming that someone has an agenda, yet no one ever can articulate what that agenda is, the motivation behind it, or any other details that would support this claim (other than some broad theory about how it would destabalize a nation.... even though theres no explanation on how this act would achieve any form of destabilization).

[RS]

1 hour ago, VinceA said:

Leave it to this board to take a simple feature on Kaye and the racial abuse he faced and turn it into this.

 

*gestures wildy*

Thanks once again to the board's resident grenade launcher.

You know, the one accusing others of serving no purpose on here other than to disrupt and divide.

[GasPed]

7 hours ago, Bigandy said:

It is great to hear that you havent experienced it, but anecdotal evidence isnt really the best way to base your claim. Go to a serie a game and see the bananas being thrown or monkey chants. Its not as rare as you may think it is... 

Oh, I have experienced it (believe me) - just not in 50 years or so.  And I'm not saying racism or racists do not exist - they certainly do.  But what I am saying is that I personally think racism is not nearly so common as, frankly, trolls are.  There are literally tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of internet trolls - bullies who go around posting insidious and horrific things just for fun/pleasure and to provoke outrage.  Some of these are real-life anti-social misanthropes, but it's quite well-documented that a number of these bullies/bots are state-sponsored too.  And again, I'm not saying these lowlifes are the source of the disgusting attack on Kaye - all I'm saying is it's possible that is the source, as opposed to a real-life racist.  

Edited November 10, 2022 by GasPed

[Bertuzzi44]

Anyone who thinks racism isn't a problem in this country or that such issues originate from some "foreign power" are out of touch with reality.

[Cadeau]

All I can add is that its the end of an empire, and with that comes volatility. As it was when the romans came to an end, except now were all plugged in. Its just a bad idea to be on social media, where its easy to become radicalized.

[Cadeau]

I hope MAK crushes it vs Bahrein. We need him to ratchet up a level.

[Floortom]

I don’t like Mak’s on the field performance much and haven’t been impressed with him in a few years but I’ll never understand those who take to social media to harass athletes. Even ignoring the racist aspect which is horrible, I would never go to social media to talk shit to an athlete. 

[Sal333]

2 minutes ago, Floortom said:

I don’t like Mak’s on the field performance much and haven’t been impressed with him in a few years but I’ll never understand those who take to social media to harass athletes. Even ignoring the racist aspect which is horrible, I would never go to social media to talk shit to an athlete. 

Putting aside the racist aspect for now, I find it hilarious that  overweight couch potatoes which most trolls are will go on social media to tear down an athlete. To me it smells of envy even for the ones that are not overweight.

As for the racist comments, that's just low life behaviour.

 

[jhoops__]

59 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

Putting aside the racist aspect for now, I find it hilarious that  overweight couch potatoes which most trolls are will go on social media to tear down an athlete. To me it smells of envy even for the ones that are not overweight.

As for the racist comments, that's just low life behaviour.

 

What the hell does weight have to do with anything?  Dudes that unfairly criticize others has nothing to do with their body ffs.   Assholes come in all shapes and sizes.

[CanadaFan123]

1 hour ago, Sal333 said:

Putting aside the racist aspect for now, I find it hilarious that  overweight couch potatoes which most trolls are will go on social media to tear down an athlete. To me it smells of envy even for the ones that are not overweight.

As for the racist comments, that's just low life behaviour.

 

These people making racist comments have probably never watched Canada before. They do it because they know it’ll cause a shit storm and will especially get to someone like MAK. Continually giving oxygen to these things just gives these morons a hard on. 

[Sal333]

1 hour ago, jhoops__ said:

What the hell does weight have to do with anything?  Dudes that unfairly criticize others has nothing to do with their body ffs.   Assholes come in all shapes and sizes.

Something tells me you have a problem with reading comprehension.

[jhoops__]

Nope 

[Unnamed Trialist]

This board has had a problem with threads advancing white supremacist views, and repeating and citing related authors. This is documented, was discussed amongst some here, the mods were slow reacting but finally did.

I learnt about it from others who contacted me and more Vs about it.

This is even worse than I am describing, me and a few others were ready to go to the CSA and the press on it. A supporter group allowing such banter, or fostering sexism (a previously perceived problem), can't be making ticketing deals with the CSA, for example.

The very name and separation between this site and the Voyageur official site is related to creating a barrier between the types of banter that could take place here, and the higher purpose of the Vs. 

I don't think this is the time and place to document this. Another day we'll look at how race has come into play in NT dynamics, but in a more positive light.

 

 

 

 

 

[JamboAl]

Hey guys.  Lay off the social commentary.  Or this thread gets shut.

[Califax]

Can't see how he gets minutes when it matters. Painfully bad performance. 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Califax

[gkhs]

I was feeling hopeful that, with the layoff since his season ended, he might have recovered physically and be on better form. It really was a tale of two seasons, he was decent-to-good before the injury and brutal after.

But, he looked totally unplayable. No confidence on the ball, at all.

Pending Atiba's availability, Oso is going to have to play in the double pivot with SE. With Kone, if/when they go with a three man midfield.