Jonathan Osorio

[dyslexic nam]

3 minutes ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

I think we may already be there, honestly. I'd like to see more of Choiniere in particular. 

He does seem like the natural successor.  

[Free kick]

3 hours ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

I think we may already be there, honestly. I'd like to see more of Choiniere in particular. 

For me, the Choiniere case is the opposite to Osorio.  Choiniere has stood out this year, but i need to see that it continues into next year for me to start thinking about NT callups.

Recall,  just a few threads up, we were talking about Jackson Hamel

Edited September 17, 2023 by Free kick

[dyslexic nam]

45 minutes ago, Free kick said:

For me, the Choiniere case is the opposite to Osorio.  Choiniere has stood out this year, but i need to see that it continues into next year for me to start think about NT callups.

Recall,  just a few threads up, we were talking about Jackson Hamel

The one thing I will say about MC is that it isn’t like he just suddenly started playing well.  He was strong last year as well in a team that was near the top of the table and he has had 26 appearances on each of the previous two seasons (mostly in the starting 11 last year).  It is fair to want him to sustain a level of play that warrants displacing Oso, but in terms of warranting a callup I would argue that he has already accomplished that.  

[Stoppage Time]

49 minutes ago, Free kick said:

For me, the Choiniere case is the opposite to Osorio.  Choiniere has stood out this year, but i need to see that it continues into next year for me to start think about NT callups.

Recall,  just a few threads up, we were talking about Jackson Hamel

I say that if the player is doing very well as Choiniere has shown, you give the player a taste. Camp Poutine is essential and Choiniere has earned a call to that camp at least.

[Kadenge]

Choiniere has earned a call up for the Nov window

[CanadaFan123]

He’s playing at a Kaye/Osorio peak MLS level - maybe even better. The fact he hasn’t been capped in the last year is criminal. 
 

I understand they’re different roles but he’s a more influential player than Piette has ever been and by his age Piette had like 40 caps.

[The Beaver 2.0]

7 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

He’s playing at a Kaye/Osorio peak MLS level - maybe even better. The fact he hasn’t been capped in the last year is criminal. 
 

I understand they’re different roles but he’s a more influential player than Piette has ever been and by his age Piette had like 40 caps.

But that last bit says as much about the improved overall quality of our pool of players as it does anything else. Having said that, I strongly feel he should be called up for November

[jonovision]

10 hours ago, Free kick said:

For me, the Choiniere case is the opposite to Osorio.  Choiniere has stood out this year, but i need to see that it continues into next year for me to start thinking about NT callups.

Recall,  just a few threads up, we were talking about Jackson Hamel

Osorio is an interesting comparison as he made his Canada debut when he only had 11 pro games on his resume, and was a regular off the hop.

I know the player pool is different now, but Choiniere has built much more of a case for himself.

[CanadaFan123]

8 hours ago, jonovision said:

Osorio is an interesting comparison as he made his Canada debut when he only had 11 pro games on his resume, and was a regular off the hop.

I know the player pool is different now, but Choiniere has built much more of a case for himself.

Ditto with most of the current regulars. Miller, Laryea, Millar, Cornelius, Kone, Kaye, Fraser all were given shots before being established regulars. Bad timing? Perhaps but then you look at the last gold cup and we have guys like Ahmed and JRR being called and getting chances. 

[grigorio]

21 hours ago, Free kick said:

For me, the Choiniere case is the opposite to Osorio.  Choiniere has stood out this year, but i need to see that it continues into next year for me to start thinking about NT callups.

Recall,  just a few threads up, we were talking about Jackson Hamel

Why hold Choiniere to such a high standard when there are guys getting call ups (even in recent history) that have literally had a handful of decent games in MLS as being enough of a sample size to get into camp. Meanwhile an MLS All-Star who has strung together 2 solid years hasn't done enough to get a look?

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, grigorio said:

Why hold Choiniere to such a high standard when there are guys getting call ups (even in recent history) that have literally had a handful of decent games in MLS as being enough of a sample size to get into camp. Meanwhile an MLS All-Star who has strung together 2 solid years hasn't done enough to get a look?

I actually don't think even those guys "having handfull of decent games in MLS" (as you mentioned) deserve all the hype that they are getting.  I have even stated my piece on this in another thread yesterday.

[costarg]

3 hours ago, Free kick said:

I actually don't think even those guys "having handfull of decent games in MLS" (as you mentioned) deserve all the hype that they are getting.  I have even stated my piece on this in another thread yesterday.

OK, so, since we're in the Osorio thread, same question I asked Obinna... are you taking Osorio?  If not, who are your midfielders?

[Club Linesman]

I love Oso.  But his recent form isn’t at the level previously and Choiniere has been terrific. I would put Choiniere in the midfield ahead of Oso.

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

OK, so, since we're in the Osorio thread, same question I asked Obinna... are you taking Osorio?  If not, who are your midfielders?

On a 23 man squad (assuming we stick with a 3-5-2) we would roughly have. 
3 GK
5 cb (AJ, bombito, vitoria/ZMG, miller, Cornelius)
4 WB (Buchanan, Laryea, sam, davies)
5 midfielders 
4 strikers (david, larin, ugbo, hoilett/Jebbo/Brym) 
2 winger/utility players (ahmed, millar)

Midfielders:
1. Staq
2. Kone
3. choiniere 
4. Piette 
5. Oso

Missing guys:
 Loturi, Saliba, Fraser, kaye, zouhir, spoony. 

I think oso still gets in the 23 man squad. All the other options are more defensive and not clearly better. If anything, the missing guys would replace piette before oso.  

What about your lineup.
 

[Obinna]

6 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

On a 23 man squad (assuming we stick with a 3-5-2) we would roughly have. 
3 GK
5 cb (AJ, bombito, vitoria/ZMG, miller, Cornelius)
4 WB (Buchanan, Laryea, sam, davies)
5 midfielders 
4 strikers (david, larin, ugbo, hoilett/Jebbo/Brym) 
2 winger/utility players (ahmed, millar)

Midfielders:
1. Staq
2. Kone
3. choiniere 
4. Piette 
5. Oso

Missing guys:
 Loturi, Saliba, Fraser, kaye, zouhir, spoony. 

I think oso still gets in the 23 man squad. All the other options are more defensive and not clearly better. If anything, the missing guys would replace piette before oso.  

What about your lineup.
 

That's a pretty good 23 and it's hard to poke holes in your choices.

As you all know I want Bombito to get more reps with the Rapids first, but I love his athleticism and ability on the ball. Besides that, where else can I nitpick? Maybe Corbeanu instead of Brym? Not quite the same profile though. Maybe Kennedy instead of Bombito? Scott hasn't had the best run lately for Canada though. Hmm... that's all I can think of.

All in all - great selection 👍

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

That's a pretty good 23 and it's hard to poke holes in your choices.

As you all know I want Bombito to get more reps with the Rapids first, but I love his athleticism and ability on the ball. Besides that, where else can I nitpick? Maybe Corbeanu instead of Brym? Not quite the same profile though. Maybe Kennedy instead of Bombito? Scott hasn't had the best run lately for Canada though. Hmm... that's all I can think of.

All in all - great selection 👍

Heres my holes in my own line up. 

Bombito: I'm more than comfortable dropping bombito, especially if vitoria is fit and we include both him and ZMG. 
The 4th striker: up for debate with hoilett getting older, brym being meh, jebbo not committing, and corbeanu being so exciting as a prospect. 
Piette: Experience and role player.... could move on from him
Ahmed: is he ready/in enough form/viewed as a CM or WB or is his spot better served with an attacker like corbeanu? 
Oso: poor form but do we have another CAM option thats not in the 23? 

[costarg]

24 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

On a 23 man squad (assuming we stick with a 3-5-2) we would roughly have. 
3 GK
5 cb (AJ, bombito, vitoria/ZMG, miller, Cornelius)
4 WB (Buchanan, Laryea, sam, davies)
5 midfielders 
4 strikers (david, larin, ugbo, hoilett/Jebbo/Brym) 
2 winger/utility players (ahmed, millar)

Midfielders:
1. Staq
2. Kone
3. choiniere 
4. Piette 
5. Oso

Missing guys:
 Loturi, Saliba, Fraser, kaye, zouhir, spoony. 

I think oso still gets in the 23 man squad. All the other options are more defensive and not clearly better. If anything, the missing guys would replace piette before oso.  

What about your lineup.
 

I mostly agree.  Overall we're pretty close and it's a good list without surprises. 

Once again, my major critique is Osorio.  I feel we're throwing him in there due to his name, our affection for him and his reputation.  Nothing to do with what he has shown on the field the past 12 months.  I think I'm going with Kaye, Ahmed or Saliba ahead of him until he turns things around.  He's just not putting in the work or effort defensively and we have other guys that can do the offensive work.  Hopefully we don't need to go that far down the roster or pecking order for our midfielders.

2- I still don't feel we're getting the most out of AJ or CANMNT's overall potential by putting AJ at CB, but that's more a formation issue rather than a selection issue.  I can't imagine an important game with AJ on the bench if he's healthy.

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, costarg said:

I mostly agree.  Overall we're pretty close and it's a good list without surprises. 

Once again, my major critique is Osorio.  I feel we're throwing him in there due to his name, our affection for him and his reputation.  Nothing to do with what he has shown on the field the past 12 months.  I think I'm going with Kaye, Ahmed or Saliba ahead of him until he turns things around.  He's just not putting in the work or effort defensively and we have other guys that can do the offensive work.  Hopefully we don't need to go that far down the roster or pecking order for our midfielders.

2- I still don't feel we're getting the most out of AJ or CANMNT's overall potential by putting AJ at CB, but that's more a formation issue rather than a selection issue.  I can't imagine an important game with AJ on the bench if he's healthy.

I would disagree. I am putting oso on the list due to lack of options. Ahmed is in my 23 already. Kaye and saliba are not comparative to oso positionally. 

Lets say we play a 4-2-3-1.  Choiniere or kone plays as the 10 even though they are not really suited for this role. If we need to make a sub because of an injury or lack of creativity, who do we put as the 10. Hoilett who isnt quite a natural fit? David drops deeper but will likely still play his normal game?  The only player who is naturally a 10 is Oso. 

Sure we could make it work with other round about solutions, but i dont really see kaye adding any value to our 23 and getting minutes. At least with oso we get more positional flexibility and hes a core group guy with lots of experience. 

[Obinna]

@costarg I hear you on Oso but I don't feel that compelled to drop him, nor would I kick up a stink if he was dropped. Form is temporary, class is permanent? I would have a problem with him starting and not being up to snuff, but if he's coming in late to see out a result that's fine with me. Basically I would call for a reduced role until he finds the form worthy of a starting spot. And if you want to drop him all together then fine by me. Kaye is not a like for like exactly but he is an 8 and so is Oso and considering he is playing better I too have no problem seeing him come back in for Oso. It should be a meritocracy.

[RS]

13 hours ago, Obinna said:

Kaye is not a like for like exactly but he is an 8 and so is Oso and considering he is playing better I too have no problem seeing him come back in for Oso. It should be a meritocracy.

Are we sure Kaye's playing better? And are they even truly comparable?

MAK's always been a physical force in the midfield, he's usually at or near the top of the league in tackles and interceptions and he still covers a ton of ground, but he's also a turnover machine and can't make an accurate pass inside the final third if his life depends on it — so he's essentially the opposite of Osorio when considering their respective strengths. It's why they were often played together both at TFC and the MNT, they are complimentary pieces.

Osorio protects the ball better than almost everyone in the MNT pool and can often pick out the right pass in the attacking zone (just look at his passing stats, which are usually in the upper 80s or even low 90s percentage-wise despite most of his passes coming in the opposition half of the field where pressure is higher), and he's also got the knack of knowing when to pop up as the second or third runner into the box in order to get a shot on goal.

He's notably slower this year — whether due to the team around him causing him to second-guess his runs, a lack of form or just the effects of aging — which has negated the work he's put in over the years to be better on the defensive side of the ball. Whether that's permanent or not remains to be seen, but like @Bigandy I just don't think Kaye and Osorio are competing for the same position on a theoretical 23-man squad, and I don't think anyone has taken his spot from him yet either (not even Choiniere, who is also a very different type of player to Osorio and should be included in the MNT over someone else).

As to my original question, how many on here have watched enough of the Revs to know that Kaye's playing better now? The Revs themselves haven't exactly been knocking it out of the park since his arrival but he's gotten himself into the starting lineup of a team that's certainly better than TFC (the lowest of bars right now), so perhaps?

[costarg]

I know the role Osorio plays, he was a valuable piece.  However from what we've seen we just can't play him given the defensive issues and limitations.  Kone, Stache and Choiniere are all more than capable offensively speaking, as well as a massive step up on the other side of the ball and athletically.  Osorio is just too much of a liability right now.  Fine for a friendly, but not in a competitive match.

Lots of talk about Osorio's specific skill set and how we don't have an exact fit.  Just throwing this out there cause it hasn't been mentioned yet this week....  You know who's game is the most similar to Osorio?  Minus the defensive lapses that seem to have become part of his game in the past while?  ARFIELD.  Obviously he isn't a long term solution and we don't wanna build around him, but if we're dead set on having that profile, he does exist.

I understand we don't have an exact replacement (unless the Arfield situation gets sorted), but that's where flexibility comes in.  We don't need his specific skillset if we factor that into the formation, we have more than enough players that can play that floating, break the D, attacking role from different angles.  I think most of us have already come to the conclusion that 3 at the back isn't helping us, it's actually exposing our weakness.  Same applies.

[Bigandy]

59 minutes ago, costarg said:

I know the role Osorio plays, he was a valuable piece.  However from what we've seen we just can't play him given the defensive issues and limitations.  Kone, Stache and Choiniere are all more than capable offensively speaking, as well as a massive step up on the other side of the ball and athletically.  Osorio is just too much of a liability right now.  Fine for a friendly, but not in a competitive match.

Lots of talk about Osorio's specific skill set and how we don't have an exact fit.  Just throwing this out there cause it hasn't been mentioned yet this week....  You know who's game is the most similar to Osorio?  Minus the defensive lapses that seem to have become part of his game in the past while?  ARFIELD.  Obviously he isn't a long term solution and we don't wanna build around him, but if we're dead set on having that profile, he does exist.

I understand we don't have an exact replacement (unless the Arfield situation gets sorted), but that's where flexibility comes in.  We don't need his specific skillset if we factor that into the formation, we have more than enough players that can play that floating, break the D, attacking role from different angles.  I think most of us have already come to the conclusion that 3 at the back isn't helping us, it's actually exposing our weakness.  Same applies.

Arfield is def the most similar but hes retired for now. mitrovic would be a good pick up if he wasnt cap tied. Hopefully some of our younger CAM prospects turn out. maybe JMR one day?

Im not sure I agree that we have many guys who can break down the defense. 

Oso and Hoilett can. 

Our other wingers can take guys on 1v1 on the sidelines but they dont find pockets in the middle of the field and then feed through balls. Think of shaf. Hes a one trick pony. Our other wingers are stylistically the same, even if they have more elements to their game.

The next closest player would be ahmed based on his GC performance. I wouldnt say super creative but hes quite active and draws defenders to him to dishes off. 

We saw against belguim that a team who sits back can nullify our wingers. Who do we turn to off the bench when this happens.... Surely we would rather have an out of form Oso trying to unlock a low block vs MAK having horrible turnovers. 

 

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, RS said:

Are we sure Kaye's playing better? And are they even truly comparable?

MAK's always been a physical force in the midfield, he's usually at or near the top of the league in tackles and interceptions and he still covers a ton of ground, but he's also a turnover machine and can't make an accurate pass inside the final third if his life depends on it — so he's essentially the opposite of Osorio when considering their respective strengths. It's why they were often played together both at TFC and the MNT, they are complimentary pieces.

Osorio protects the ball better than almost everyone in the MNT pool and can often pick out the right pass in the attacking zone (just look at his passing stats, which are usually in the upper 80s or even low 90s percentage-wise despite most of his passes coming in the opposition half of the field where pressure is higher), and he's also got the knack of knowing when to pop up as the second or third runner into the box in order to get a shot on goal.

He's notably slower this year — whether due to the team around him causing him to second-guess his runs, a lack of form or just the effects of aging — which has negated the work he's put in over the years to be better on the defensive side of the ball. Whether that's permanent or not remains to be seen, but like @Bigandy I just don't think Kaye and Osorio are competing for the same position on a theoretical 23-man squad, and I don't think anyone has taken his spot from him yet either (not even Choiniere, who is also a very different type of player to Osorio and should be included in the MNT over someone else).

As to my original question, how many on here have watched enough of the Revs to know that Kaye's playing better now? The Revs themselves haven't exactly been knocking it out of the park since his arrival but he's gotten himself into the starting lineup of a team that's certainly better than TFC (the lowest of bars right now), so perhaps?

All great points and I won't argue against any of them.

However, I will pose the question: will Kaye come back in at some point, and who will be dropped to accomodate him?

He hasn't come back in since March and is that because we've moved on for good or did we simply want to rotate him out due to his form? If it's the latter, maybe we do the same for Oso? Again, I acknowledge and agree they are different 8s, but they are both central midfielders. Maybe the coaching staff is okay without someone like Oso's profile, at least for a while...

That said I think it is more likely that Oso remains with the team IMO, which again I am fine with. I don't think his "poor form" has been as bad as Kaye's was.

[RS]

6 minutes ago, Obinna said:

All great points and I won't argue against any of them.

However, I will pose the question: will Kaye come back in at some point, and who will be dropped to accomodate him?

He hasn't come back in since March and is that because we've moved on for good or did we simply want to rotate him out due to his form? If it's the latter, maybe we do the same for Oso? Again, I acknowledge and agree they are different 8s, but they are both central midfielders. Maybe the coaching staff is okay without someone like Oso's profile, at least for a while...

That said I think it is more likely that Oso remains with the team IMO, which again I am fine with. I don't think his "poor form" has been as bad as Kaye's was.

Agreed that MAK's poor form was leagues worse than Osorio's

I still think MAK can do a job for Canada, as I think he's such a good disruptor and at his peak is better than Piette at the role. You just have to have someone else in the midfield that he can quickly pass the ball to who can properly distribute/move up the field with the ball.

[Kadenge]

Remember when MAK was an MLS all star and being talked about as one of the best CM in MLS in his first 2/3 yrs at LAFC? He was constantly progressing the ball with line splitting passes to Vela et al.  He doesn't look like the same player. Perhaps it's age although he's not old,  so I do wonder why he has lost that ability to progress the ball with the accuracy he had during the early yrs at LAFC.