WCQ: Canada vs Haiti - In-Match Thread

[jonovision]

There are plenty of legitimate, even ethical, reasons to practice some of these dark arts. Pick up a minor knock in basketball, football, or hockey? Sit for a few minutes and be good to go. If you need to "walk it off" for a few minutes in soccer you either go off, forcing your team to use a valuable sub, or hobble around, leaving your team less than full. Getting a whistle is the best thing you can do for yourself and for the team. The rolling around is annoying, but rarely accomplishes anything so who cares. It's the pure diving that's a stain on the game, but the same exists in hockey, and flopping in basketball might be worse.
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[gigi riva]

On 6/16/2021 at 10:45 AM, grigorio said:

For everyone hating on Wheeler, do you remember Forrest during these games? He was the polar opposite. Bashing Canada endlessly it was so demoralizing listening to those broadcasts. Was depressing enough watching a lot of those games didn't need Forrest jabbering on all match about how poor and not good enough everything was that we saw. 

I didn't mind Forrest to be honest , I have always respected his opinions  and I was glad he didn't play the homer in his broadcasting. Still my fav moment was when he and Gerry Dobson lost it on National TV during that Gold Cup semi final vs The USA in 2007 on that BS offside call . 

[gigi riva]

5 hours ago, jonovision said:

There are plenty of legitimate, even ethical, reasons to practice some of these dark arts. Pick up a minor knock in basketball, football, or hockey? Sit for a few minutes and be good to go. If you need to "walk it off" for a few minutes in soccer you either go off, forcing your team to use a valuable sub, or hobble around, leaving your team less than full. Getting a whistle is the best thing you can do for yourself and for the team. The rolling around is annoying, but rarely accomplishes anything so who cares. It's the pure diving that's a stain on the game, but the same exists in hockey, and flopping in basketball might be worse.
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In Hockey there is a lot of flopping too  

[Kent]

On 6/16/2021 at 2:36 AM, Watchmen said:

I think the fact they had so many chances is because Davies and David are enormously talented with a strong supporting cast, and has less to do with the coaching. It's back to back games where the team has started slow and tentative, and more talented teams (ie virtually everyone in the octo) will be more punishing of it. It was a Haiti team missing some its best players that held Canada tight enough until a miss play of the year contender forced them to open up a bit more.

We'll see what happens. At the very least, I'm excited to watch meaningful games in the year leading up to the World Cup for the first time in forever. 

Perfect example of what I was saying the other day. All credit is given to the players, and all negatives are directed at the coach. Surely both should be spread around to the whole group.

[The Real Marc]

On 6/17/2021 at 9:30 AM, rkomar said:

I think this despising of fakery to draw fouls is firmly rooted in Canadian sports culture (inherited from the British).  

I think the despising of fakery comes from the fact that we've never been competitive.

If our players and coaches felt that the 'dark arts' could put us over the top and make a difference in winning, they would.

It's a noble loser mentality. If you're going to lose, at least lose in a noble manner.

[rkomar]

17 minutes ago, The Real Marc said:

I think the despising of fakery comes from the fact that we've never been competitive.

If our players and coaches felt that the 'dark arts' could put us over the top and make a difference in winning, they would.

It's a noble loser mentality. If you're going to lose, at least lose in a noble manner.

 I'm sure there are some who use that crutch when losing, but it doesn't explain why we feel the same way about fakery in hockey.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

28 minutes ago, The Real Marc said:

I think the despising of fakery comes from the fact that we've never been competitive.

If our players and coaches felt that the 'dark arts' could put us over the top and make a difference in winning, they would.

It's a noble loser mentality. If you're going to lose, at least lose in a noble manner.

I disagree.  See my comments that started this. Plenty of English supporters, players and coaches that come from successful teams (at the present or historically) that don't accept it from their own players/teammates.  I have seen captains yank up their own players from the turf after they took a dive. 

Again as I also said, that does not mean there are not a significant number of English players that believe is it "part of the game" apparently.

[The Real Marc]

4 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I disagree.  See my comments that started this. Plenty of English supporters, players and coaches that come from successful teams (at the present or historically) that don't accept it from their own players/teammates.  I have seen captains yank up their own players from the turf after they took a dive. 

Again as I also said, that does not mean there are not a significant number of English players that believe is it "part of the game" apparently.

Yeah I'm commenting on Canada. Not England. We have a multitude of soccer influences (and a history of playing teams that believe it is part of the game) so that the view is what Craig grew up with and persists somewhat to do this day is about lot more than what goes on in the UK. Ask any of our players if they would have rather played in the World Cup based on a dive, or missed out based on chivalrous play...the answer will likely betray their noble intentions.

Edited June 18, 2021 by The Real Marc

[Kent]

21 hours ago, archer21 said:

To me, the biggest problem with diving is the refereeing. If someone dives, they need to be given a card. If that happens enough, it will get diving out of the game. We don’t need players diving to protect the players. The referees should be doing that by penalizing the opposition appropriately. To me, all diving does is makes refs more hesitant to hand out cards because they have no idea whether the player is just faking or not half the time.

The flip side of this is ignored too often. Another aspect that would be necessary to get rid of diving/exaggeration is to call fouls when the fouled player DOESN'T go to the ground. It seems whenever a player is fouled but tries to stay on their feet, the foul doesn't get called. It forces players to go to the ground when they are fouled so as to confirm to the ref that "yes, I want you to call this". If a player stays on his feet after being fouled, but no advantage to him plays out, the ref needs to call it.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

10 minutes ago, The Real Marc said:

Yeah I'm commenting on Canada. Not England. We have a multitude of soccer influences (and a history of playing teams that believe it is part of the game) so that the view is what Craig grew up with and persists somewhat to do this day is about lot more than what goes on in the UK.

England/English club teams have also a very long history of playing teams that think a lot of cheating is part of the game (hand of God?).  When Forrest speaks I hear something very similar to "The West Ham Way" which I went into above.  There is certainly Canadian there but there is also a massive influence from the time he spend with one of most iconic End East English managers, who played with the English World Cup heroes. 

 I guess the point is that you don't need to be Canadian and/or historically unsuccessful to be against cheating to whatever degree. 

Edit: To be clear I think Forrest's attitude is often too proud for his own good, just not in terms of his attitude towards gamesmanship. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[ag futbol]

15 hours ago, archer21 said:

I was more so talking about people diving with no contact whatsoever. In leagues with VAR, you could easily just issue an auto yellow card for any dive where the player wasn’t touched. Don’t even need the ref to go to the monitor, just buzz it down. 
 

I do hate the rolling around on the ground and acting injured when you’re barely touched, but that’s harder to get out of the game in my opinion. Only solution I can think of is to stop the clock on injuries or have refs actually add on the real injury time. That would at least eliminate faking injuries to waste time, but doesn’t eliminate faking injury to try to lure the ref into giving a card to the opposition.

My favourite clip of all time (which I can no longer find) is Marcelo playing for Real Madrid in the champions league (think it was against Milan). He’s  charging down the right side, gets into the box, winds up for a shot, and takes a huge divot out of the ground, knocking himself over in the process. 

He then gets up and starts remonstrating for a penalty call. Of course he wasn’t diving as much as he was completely oblivious, but I still found it hilarious.

[The Real Marc]

29 minutes ago, rkomar said:

 I'm sure there are some who use that crutch when losing, but it doesn't explain why we feel the same way about fakery in hockey.

We are against diving in hockey, but certainly not against other forms of dark arts. Those are just considered "part of the game" performed by "good Canadian kids"

[CanadaFan123]

If you dive in hockey you're a "pest". 

Let's also not forget the other "dark arts" in hockey. Players regularly get high sticked and due to the double minor rule attempt to cut themselves after the fact. 

It all goes back to the old adage "don't hate the player, hate the game".

[sebdeserio]

42 minutes ago, ag futbol said:

My favourite clip of all time (which I can no longer find) is Marcelo playing for Real Madrid in the champions league (think it was against Milan). He’s  charging down the right side, gets into the box, winds up for a shot, and takes a huge divot out of the ground, knocking himself over in the process. 

He then gets up and starts remonstrating for a penalty call. Of course he wasn’t diving as much as he was completely oblivious, but I still found it hilarious.

I think it was Vidal vs. Real Madrid

[AvroArrow]

I think the other big frustration with the rolling around on the ground is that rarely enough injury time is added for all the "injuries".  10 minutes wasted, 5 minutes added.

This can't be done in hockey or basketball because the clock stops.

Edited June 18, 2021 by AvroArrow

[Floortom]

3 minutes ago, AvroArrow said:

I think the other big frustration with the rolling around on the ground is that rarely enough injury time is added for all the "injuries".  10 minutes wasted, 5 minutes added.

This can't be done in hockey or basketball because the clock stops.

This is the one relic that is really bizarre to me...keeping a running clock makes zero sense. It just boggles my mind that they’re still leaving it up to the total randomness and judgement of the referee instead is just stopping the clock for when play isn’t going on.

[The Real Marc]

Stopping the clock will just result in gassed teams that are behind a goal stopping play for breaks or regroups, IMHO.

[MM3/MM2/MM]

1 hour ago, Floortom said:

This is the one relic that is really bizarre to me...keeping a running clock makes zero sense. It just boggles my mind that they’re still leaving it up to the total randomness and judgement of the referee instead is just stopping the clock for when play isn’t going on.

Out of curiosity I timed the first ten minutes of the 2nd half of the Croatia/Czech game and the running time was 6 minutes.  I'm sure it would be less if you timed the last ten minutes.

 

[El Diego]

27 minutes ago, The Real Marc said:

Stopping the clock will just result in gassed teams that are behind a goal stopping play for breaks or regroups, IMHO.

Just make the game one hour, iirc that's roughly how much the ball is actually in play

[sebdeserio]

9 hours ago, El Diego said:

Just make the game one hour, iirc that's roughly how much the ball is actually in play

But then that leaves room for hundreds of commercials per game

[Lansdude]

4 hours ago, sebdeserio said:

But then that leaves room for hundreds of commercials per game

Yeah keep the clock running but have the refs actually add the right amount of time. It's always 50-75% of what it should be. Fix that and it's fine.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

Some interesting points about clock stoppage but when I hear it suggested over here it generally gets a similar  reception to "American" non-relegation super leagues.

Edited June 19, 2021 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[El Diego]

13 hours ago, sebdeserio said:

But then that leaves room for hundreds of commercials per game

I'm envisioning it like they do for Futsal, it works fine there. No needless delays, no room for commercials. The challenges there are frankly more intense than regular soccer and no one is getting hurt because they don't stay down (though I do concede there are unlimited subs, but I don't think that saves the players from impact injuries).

8 hours ago, Lansdude said:

Yeah keep the clock running but have the refs actually add the right amount of time. It's always 50-75% of what it should be. Fix that and it's fine.

If we were to add what actually should be added, we'd be getting 15 minutes of added time each half. Then do you add added time from added time?

[Lansdude]

4 hours ago, El Diego said:

I'm envisioning it like they do for Futsal, it works fine there. No needless delays, no room for commercials. The challenges there are frankly more intense than regular soccer and no one is getting hurt because they don't stay down (though I do concede there are unlimited subs, but I don't think that saves the players from impact injuries).

If we were to add what actually should be added, we'd be getting 15 minutes of added time each half. Then do you add added time from added time?

More like a minimum of four or five and an upper limit of ten or eleven. And, sure. The players will adjust.

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 6/18/2021 at 4:58 AM, jonovision said:

There are plenty of legitimate, even ethical, reasons to practice some of these dark arts. Pick up a minor knock in basketball, football, or hockey? Sit for a few minutes and be good to go. If you need to "walk it off" for a few minutes in soccer you either go off, forcing your team to use a valuable sub, or hobble around, leaving your team less than full. Getting a whistle is the best thing you can do for yourself and for the team. The rolling around is annoying, but rarely accomplishes anything so who cares. It's the pure diving that's a stain on the game, but the same exists in hockey, and flopping in basketball might be worse.
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When Radz went off the end line in Montreal in 2008 and hit the ad boards, he was out of bounds bleeding and play continued. That killed us. If he'd crawled onto the pitch the match would've stopped, we would've had time to prepare a sub. It turned the tide when we'd gone up 1.

Davies. He got creamed and the ref should've shown a yellow in that early run (geez, Surinám or Haití?). But if the ref is not willing to card, call in the medics, make sure he's okay, let everyone know intent to injure doesn't wash. 

It's over and over again, we are like little kids and then cry like kids when our childish way of playing is punished.