CNL Play-In for Copa America: Canada vs Trinidad & Tobago - Saturday, March 23, 2024 - Frisco (greater Dallas), Texas

[Pasta88]

4 hours ago, Stryker911 said:

There is so much that can change between now and March. There is only a very small group of players that are absolute locks for March. They are Davies, David, Eustaquio, and Larin. Every other player there is a conceivable way that they could not be called.

There really isn’t. We don’t even have enough players playing in a high enough level to hypothetically impress enough to surpass current players. Plus the MLS will have just started.

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

I think that lines up nicely then to play Honduras or Costa Rica, but it should be a super rotated squad with maybe the main guys coming on towards the end to get their feet under them. We want guys to be fresh, but we also want to get guys going. We should strike a balance.

....assuming we actually play another match, which I have no faith in, so this chat is likely moot. 

I don’t know man - we are a team than needs time to build chemistry. We start slow in a lot of games and usually come into the game as it proceeds (last night being the exception).  I think our cohesion during WCQ was a direct byproduct of the number of games we played and the familiarity it built.   I think I would sacrifice being super fresh for added stability and familiarity.   

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

Yikes. Yes I meant Honduras.

Ok

1 hour ago, narduch said:

The Wednesday before is technically part of the window.

True.

Will doing something like this make guys too tired for Saturday? I'm not sure this is a good idea.

[Markoaleks]

Flights booked for 2

once hotels or more deets are confirmed assuming shared in this thread/forum 

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

I don’t know man - we are a team than needs time to build chemistry. We start slow in a lot of games and usually come into the game as it proceeds (last night being the exception).  I think our cohesion during WCQ was a direct byproduct of the number of games we played and the familiarity it built.   I think I would sacrifice being super fresh for added stability and familiarity.   

Fair enough if we want to lean that way. Maybe the way forward would be to start our best but sub them off early or have them play just the first 45. However we want to strike the balance playing some young squad players would need to be part of the equation, at least for me. 

[Canuckia]

49 minutes ago, Markoaleks said:

Flights booked for 2

once hotels or more deets are confirmed assuming shared in this thread/forum 

Thanks for the inspiration! I pulled the switch and I am also booked.

[EJsens1]

 

1 hour ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

Ok

True.

Will doing something like this make guys too tired for Saturday? I'm not sure this is a good idea.

A big issue or concern for me going in to this game is the coaching situation. Let’s assume Biello is gone. To put a new coach in a position for his first game to be a do or die situation for Copa is such an awful dynamic to walk in to. Perhaps maybe a game in January if Camp Poutine happens against another team in the region to get his feet wet. I don’t think the idea of having a game on the Wednesday the 20th is terrible, where both teams can agree to allow as many subs as possible would be a decent idea. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by EJsens1

[Alex]

We’re still in a good spot. It’s all about copa America. Slow build 

[dyslexic nam]

4 minutes ago, Alex said:

We’re still in a good spot. It’s all about copa America. Slow build 

The Copa qualification is a big piece of it but we can’t lose sight of the fact that we were just eliminated from the Nations League last night.   It isn’t just about chasing the biggest tournaments.  For a country like Canada, the Nations League games and the Gold Cup games matter. 

[Obinna]

19 minutes ago, Alex said:

We’re still in a good spot. It’s all about copa America. Slow build 

Not for me it isn't. 

For me this was 51 Copa / 49 NL.

We want to be 3rd best in this region? We need to compete for Silverware in our region EVERY tournament. That means getting to finals or semi finals, not crashing out at the QF for Gold Cup AND Nations League (back-to-back now btw).

Copa America is a special and unique opportunity, hence the 51%, but at least we have the backdoor route. Had we pulled through, I think 51% of my joy would have been about Copa and 49% would have been about NL.

The March qualifier will be massive of course, but part of me is going to look at Jamaica with envy. They've booked their ticket AND now have a claim to be a top-4 concacaf side. Canada? At best we book our ticket to Copa, that's it. 

We may have the so-called best player in the region, maybe the best forward, and probably one of the top 3 midfielders, but nobody can say we are 3rd strongest in the region right now:

1. USA
2. Mexico
3. Panama
4. Jamaica
5. Canada (at best)
6. Costa Rica
7. Honduras
8. El Salvador/Guatemala/T&T/Haiti (one of those teams)

IF we get to Copa (big IF) and IF we progress further than Panama and Jamaica, I think the door opens back up, but for now it's firmly shut and we are no better than 5th.

We can't live in the past, that's a loser mentality, and the Ocho was 2021/2022 and we soon will be in 2024. You're only as good as your last game. 

[Watchmen]

39 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

The Copa qualification is a big piece of it but we can’t lose sight of the fact that we were just eliminated from the Nations League last night.   It isn’t just about chasing the biggest tournaments.  For a country like Canada, the Nations League games and the Gold Cup games matter. 

It's tough, because we don't win much (see: 1 Gold Cup). But "big" NL games to me are still just more games against the same teams in this region. I think an NL Cup win doesn't galvanize the general public the way even participation in the Copa might. Combined with the CSA's inability to organize games against top opposition (home or away), and it just feels like potentially missing the Copa would be a much bigger missed opportunity for Canada than missing the NL semi-finals. It's hard to proclaim yourselves a top footballing nation in the region if you're not even able to qualify in the top 6. Have to wonder what potential sponsors would (do?) think of this as well.

[dyslexic nam]

2 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

It's tough, because we don't win much (see: 1 Gold Cup). But "big" NL games to me are still just more games against the same teams in this region. I think an NL Cup win doesn't galvanize the general public the way even participation in the Copa might. Combined with the CSA's inability to organize games against top opposition (home or away), and it just feels like potentially missing the Copa would be a much bigger missed opportunity for Canada than missing the NL semi-finals. It's hard to proclaim yourselves a top footballing nation in the region if you're not even able to qualify in the top 6. Have to wonder what potential sponsors would (do?) think of this as well.

I get it.  I just don’t see it as either/or.  They are both important.  Copa qualification is a big deal for sure.  It would be a novel new tournament that would generate interest and lead to competitive games against new, quality opponents.  But that doesn’t change the fact that we just lost out, yet again, on the chance to lift a trophy.  And we have done that so rarely that we can’t ignore the opportunity cost.  And eve. If it would have been one or two games against familiar faces like the US and Mexico, those are still quality, competitive matches that we need more of.   

[Watchmen]

22 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I get it.  I just don’t see it as either/or.  They are both important.  Copa qualification is a big deal for sure.  It would be a novel new tournament that would generate interest and lead to competitive games against new, quality opponents.  But that doesn’t change the fact that we just lost out, yet again, on the chance to lift a trophy.  And we have done that so rarely that we can’t ignore the opportunity cost.  And eve. If it would have been one or two games against familiar faces like the US and Mexico, those are still quality, competitive matches that we need more of.   

I get it, and of course if you're a player you're playing to win things not just participate. But, I also just haven't been that fired up for the NL. I'd of course celebrate if we won and be happy for the players, but it's not the Gold Cup. I mean, I can name the last few Euro winners but I'm not sure I could name any of the Euro NL winners (I think Portugal won one?). The NL (in all regions) just feels like something that could vanish and nobody would really care.

[Obinna]

26 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

It's tough, because we don't win much (see: 1 Gold Cup). But "big" NL games to me are still just more games against the same teams in this region. I think an NL Cup win doesn't galvanize the general public the way even participation in the Copa might. Combined with the CSA's inability to organize games against top opposition (home or away), and it just feels like potentially missing the Copa would be a much bigger missed opportunity for Canada than missing the NL semi-finals. It's hard to proclaim yourselves a top footballing nation in the region if you're not even able to qualify in the top 6. Have to wonder what potential sponsors would (do?) think of this as well.

I am with Nam on this. He sums up my view on it well, so no need to rehash what he says in my own words.

What I would add is that winning games against the teams in your region matters. The Copa America is great and all, but chances are we don't get out of our group. If we DO somehow manage to advance, it's a big achievement for Canada, but it's also nothing, know what I mean? There's no trophy for that - kind of like the Ocho.

Advancing from your group in the Copa America is the kind of "achievement" the average person will forget about quickly as time goes on. The Gold Cup and NL are much "lesser" competitions, but winning them is an actual achievement, something for the record books.

That's why missing out hurts, especially after being finalists last time around. It's a major step back - even if we manage to beat T&T. I ask myself what salvages this and for me it's making real noise in the Copa. To me that's (in order):

1. Doing better than Panama and (especially) Jamaica.
2. Getting out of the group
3. Giving a good account of ourselves in the QF, regardles of the result.

If we nail each of these I think we can talk about Canada being 3rd best in the region - unless Jamaica or Panama actually win the NL, which I wouldn't put past them with the way Mexico and USA stumbled through their ties. 

[Obinna]

23 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I get it, and of course if you're a player you're playing to win things not just participate. But, I also just haven't been that fired up for the NL. I'd of course celebrate if we won and be happy for the players, but it's not the Gold Cup. I mean, I can name the last few Euro winners but I'm not sure I could name any of the Euro NL winners (I think Portugal won one?). The NL (in all regions) just feels like something that could vanish and nobody would really care.

I get that you don't place much value on NL compared to GC, and very fair to say UEFA NL is a lesser competition than Euros, but I look at our region differently. On one hand, the Euro is the biggest competition outside of the World Cup.

On the other hand is Gold Cup, a tournament with a quirky name and a quirkier format, with the USA perpetually hosting and Qatar participating back-to-back, with non-FIFA members participating, with countries sending B-sides, etc. I mean, I love it because it's ours, but to be frank it's a real mess of a tournament which the average soccer fan in Canada doesn't care about in the least. 

And moreover, the NL is already (for me) starting to feel like the more important of the two regional competitions in CONCACAF. Nobody is sending B sides and countries NOT named USA actually get to host games. I think concacaf has hit it out of the park with Nations League, honestly.

Our confederation needed it whereas in UEFA it seems more like a waste of time that causes unecessary confusion (I hate how the NL winners get privaleges in World Cup qualifiers for instance). I personally feel that it could vanish and nobody would care, whereas if we lost NL in concacaf it would actually feel like a loss (to me).

[Watchmen]

8 minutes ago, Obinna said:

What I would add is that winning games against the teams in your region matters. The Copa America is great and all, but chances are we don't get out of our group. If we DO somehow manage to advance, it's a big achievement for Canada, but it's also nothing, know what I mean? There's no trophy for that - kind of like the Ocho.

Advancing from your group in the Copa America is the kind of "achievement" the average person will forget about quickly as time goes on. The Gold Cup and NL are much "lesser" competitions, but winning them is an actual achievement, something for the record books.

I don't know. Sometimes advancing in major competitions still matters and sticks with people. Heck, just qualifying for the WC has stuck with people. You don't think Costa Rica's run to the WC quarterfinals resonated, even though they didn't win?  South Korea deified a team that finished 4th. If the competition is big enough, it can capture people even if you don't win.

Conversely, the 2000 Gold Cup win is celebrated here (as it should be) but I'm guessing a lot of casual fans don't even know what the Gold Cup or NL even is.

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I don't know. Sometimes advancing in major competitions still matters and sticks with people. Heck, just qualifying for the WC has stuck with people. You don't think Costa Rica's run to the WC quarterfinals resonated, even though they didn't win?  South Korea deified a team that finished 4th. If the competition is big enough, it can capture people even if you don't win.

Conversely, the 2000 Gold Cup win is celebrated here (as it should be) but I'm guessing a lot of casual fans don't even know what the Gold Cup or NL even is.

Yes granted but the Copa America is not the World Cup.

Costa Rica making the QF is way bigger than making the QF in the Copa America. South Korea finishing 4th in the 2002 World Cup was way bigger than USA finishing 4th in the 2016 Copa America.

If you'd argue that Canada finishing 4th in Copa America is bigger than winning the NL, I would certainly entertain that argument. For sure you can capture people without winning anything (look at the Ocho), but Copa America is not even the Euros to most people over here, let alone the World Cup. Let's keep that in mind. 

As for not knowing what the NL is - you're probably right. That would put it in the same boat as the Gold Cup. Thing is, NL has more potential than GC because it's new and fresh and can grow into something more (and is with every edition).

[Watchmen]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Yes granted but the Copa America is not the World Cup.

Costa Rica making the QF is way bigger than making the QF in the Copa America. South Korea finishing 4th in the 2002 World Cup was way bigger than USA finishing 4th in the 2016 Copa America.

If you'd argue that Canada finishing 4th in Copa America is bigger than winning the NL, I would certainly entertain that argument. For sure you can capture people without winning anything (look at the Ocho), but Copa America is not even the Euros to most people over here, let alone the World Cup. Let's keep that in mind. 

It's not the WC or the Euro, but I think it's the 3rd biggest national competition in the world. And all you really have to tell casuals is "Brazil and Argentina (with Messi) are participating in it, and now so is Canada" and I think it would be enough to peak the interest of casuals.

I will agree with your earlier post that the Gold Cup gets watered down with invites and B teams in a way that the NL doesn't. I think that's a factor of holding it every 2 years and finding that there's a saturation point for the competition, as well as trying to find some point to give the top players a rest.

[Kadenge]

we are not lifting any trophies if our key guys are not in club form and we are inactive in FIFA windows. The investment needs to be a lot better for us to compete. That means more games and a more capable coaching staff.

[SthMelbRed]

Put me down for a closed-door friendly against Costa Rica on the Wednesday prior to the T&T match. First XI goes 45, then wholesale changes for the second half. The Ticos do essentially the same thing. Both teams get some time for their starters to build some cohesion against decent opposition, and also get to run out some of the subs and new guys. Then, on Saturday, they're both raring to go to slap down the Trinis and Hondos.

[kacbru]

9 hours ago, Watchmen said:

It's not the WC or the Euro, but I think it's the 3rd biggest national competition in the world.

I would argue the Africa Cup of Nations is ahead of it.

[Bertuzzi44]

13 hours ago, Alex said:

We’re still in a good spot. It’s all about copa America. Slow build 

Kind of feels like slow decline since WCQ though tbh

[Cadeau]

42 minutes ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

Kind of feels like slow decline since WCQ though tbh

Actually its kinda felt pretty fast.

[CanadaFan123]

20 hours ago, Pasta88 said:

There really isn’t. We don’t even have enough players playing in a high enough level to hypothetically impress enough to surpass current players. Plus the MLS will have just started.

You have no knowledge of our player pool clearly. We could literally call 2 more full squads of guys playing at good levels. 

[CanadaFan123]

5 hours ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

Kind of feels like slow decline since WCQ though tbh

We’re emotional but it’s really not. We made the final of the nations league just 5 months ago. Most of the negativity is unfounded or irrelevant. We’ve been eliminated in our last two tournaments by away goals and penalties. Close as it gets. 
 

Football happened to us. Now we regroup and attack next summer.