CNL Play-In for Copa America: Canada vs Trinidad & Tobago - Saturday, March 23, 2024 - Frisco (greater Dallas), Texas

[costarg]

47 minutes ago, Approve My Account Pls said:

I don't want to join the choir of people making it sound like Davies was poor. I think the best way to summarize his recent run of performances with Canada is this:

in my opinion once of his largest assets that makes him world class with Bayern is his movement off the ball. When he comes into the national team, he feels he needs to do it all himself and spends far too much time on the ball and takes one or two touches too many each possession. He needs to trust the quality of the players around him, but I don't know that he does entirely 

I don't feel anyone is really picking on Davies specifically for his effort and performance.  It’s the position he’s assigned in relation to the players around him as well as the opponent in front of him.  We’re not putting him in a situation where he can succeed, and that is not his fault.  He needs space and he needs players around him.  If we don’t give him that, we’re setting him up for failure.  Just like Pulisic is probably not a very good defensive mid, Davies does not have the tools to do it all himself if double teamed on the flank.  It’s too easy to isolate him in the formation CANMNT played.  Really nothing against Davies himself.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

4 minutes ago, costarg said:

I don't feel anyone is really picking on Davies specifically for his effort and performance.  It’s the position he’s assigned in relation to the players around him as well as the opponent in front of him.  We’re not putting him in a situation where he can succeed, and that is not his fault.  He needs space and he needs players around him.  If we don’t give him that, we’re setting him up for failure.  Just like Pulisic is probably not a very good defensive mid, Davies does not have the tools to do it all himself if double teamed on the flank.  It’s too easy to isolate him in the formation CANMNT played.  Really nothing against Davies himself.

I agree about the formation we played, you had 3 strikers who played central and 2 midfielders who had to cover a lot. And wide centre back on his side with middling pace.  Not a formula for support, clearly.

 

But this is what I don't get.

You can't by definition have unlimited space and players around you. Your players attract opposition players. 

So if you have a player that is faster than everyone else you do want to begin by isolating him.  But then provide him multiple avenues of support, not just relying on a player ahead or behind him.  Ie. Traditional set up of FB/winger.

[GasPed]

16 hours ago, Fresh Prince of MTL said:

Probably just one of you optimistic sickos getting my hopes up, but has anyone else heard of this?

I do know that yesterday North Korea cancelled their March 26 WCQ match against Japan.  So yeah, Japan is definitely available now.  I'm sure they can just redirect their flight from Pyongyang to DFW.

Furthermore, Paraguay just had their friendly against Russia (March 25) cancelled because of the terrorist attack.  So they can just pop into Frisco instead of Moscow.  It all makes sense.

[GasPed]

57 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I agree about the formation we played, you had 3 strikers who played central and 2 midfielders who had to cover a lot. And wide centre back on his side with middling pace.  Not a formula for support, clearly.

 

But this is what I don't get.

You can't by definition have unlimited space and players around you. Your players attract opposition players. 

So if you have a player that is faster than everyone else you do want to begin by isolating him.  But then provide him multiple avenues of support, not just relying on a player ahead or behind him.  Ie. Traditional set up of FB/winger.

 

I agree with you - Davies in space is an absolute weapon.  But almost by definition, against a low block, he won't have space (nobody will).

Breaking down a low block takes chemistry, creativity and talent.  It's tough for a national team to get it right in a short training camp.  That said, I also think that Davies is a bit underrated here.  No, he can't dribble through a line of 5 defenders, but he can make a couple miss and that draws defenders and opens things up.  Case in point - everyone should go look at the OneSoccer highlights from yesterday's game and see how Davies' dribbling and movement created chances against that block in the first half.    

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

4 minutes ago, GasPed said:

I agree with you - Davies in space is an absolute weapon.  But almost by definition, against a low block, he won't have space (nobody will).

Breaking down a low block takes chemistry, creativity and talent.  It's tough for a national team to get it right in a short training camp.  That said, I also think that Davies is a bit underrated here.  No, he can't dribble through a line of 5 defenders, but he can make a couple miss and that draws defenders and opens things up.  Case in point - everyone should go look at the OneSoccer highlights from yesterday's game and see how Davies' dribbling and movement created chances against that block in the first half.    

For me, 1) that's why you have runners from unexpected positions with rotations to provide cover. Not three strikers crowding the top middle with none coming from midfield without leaving yourself wide open.

2) He has to improve in at least threatening to pass before he beats two guys. He rightly respects his teammates abilities at Bayern and/or did what the coach told him.  On the other hand, coming from the best place, he just wants to drag Canada to wins.So tries to do what he does best.  And even against a parked bus he still made a lot happen, as you say.

[TGAA_Star]

Now that we are bound for Copa, the way we played against Trinidad & Tobago 🇹🇹 to get to Copa isn't going to cut it especially going up against Argentina in our opening game. Argentina not just the defending world champions but they are also the defending Copa America champions having won the last edition as well. Argentina 🇦🇷 are not just good on the ball offensively having all that firepower but their defense is pretty solid as well. This is probably the only game in the group I'm not confident about or even saying that we could possibly even lose.

 

Then in our next group game against Peru 🇵🇪,  I can honestly say that match can go either way because of how evenly matched we are. Peru 🇵🇪 having missed out on Qatar are definitely going to try to prove something but I have faith we can at least draw with them or even beat them.

 

Then in our final group game against Chile 🇨🇱, another game that can go either way because like I said before with Peru 🇵🇪 we also match up pretty well with Chile too. Another side we can't take lightly but I'm confident of a draw or win here.

[Kingston]

2 hours ago, TGAA_Star said:

Now that we are bound for Copa, the way we played against Trinidad & Tobago 🇹🇹 to get to Copa isn't going to cut it especially going up against Argentina in our opening game.

No, but I doubt Argentina will bunker and force us to try to pick the lock on their net.  So we'll definitely be playing a different game.

[Ruud]

4 hours ago, TGAA_Star said:

Now that we are bound for Copa, the way we played against Trinidad & Tobago 🇹🇹 to get to Copa isn't going to cut it especially going up against Argentina in our opening game. Argentina not just the defending world champions but they are also the defending Copa America champions having won the last edition as well. Argentina 🇦🇷 are not just good on the ball offensively having all that firepower but their defense is pretty solid as well. This is probably the only game in the group I'm not confident about or even saying that we could possibly even lose.

 

Then in our next group game against Peru 🇵🇪,  I can honestly say that match can go either way because of how evenly matched we are. Peru 🇵🇪 having missed out on Qatar are definitely going to try to prove something but I have faith we can at least draw with them or even beat them.

 

Then in our final group game against Chile 🇨🇱, another game that can go either way because like I said before with Peru 🇵🇪 we also match up pretty well with Chile too. Another side we can't take lightly but I'm confident of a draw or win here.

Love the confidence 

[Metro]

Just caught up with this thread and while I am still wondering how the purchase of certain washer/dryers entered into the discussion, just want to remind those who were concerned that Canada didn't run Trinidad out of the park that they ARE tough nut to crack when they play the low block.

It was the US that knocked them out in the quarterfinals and while they won the home leg 3-0, they did not score until after the 80th, even though they were man up since the 38th.  (The US also lost the away leg.)

 

[CanadaFan123]

36 minutes ago, Metro said:

Just caught up with this thread and while I am still wondering how the purchase of certain washer/dryers entered into the discussion, just want to remind those who were concerned that Canada didn't run Trinidad out of the park that they ARE tough nut to crack when they play the low block.

It was the US that knocked them out in the quarterfinals and while they won the home leg 3-0, they did not score until after the 80th, even though they were man up since the 38th.  (The US also lost the away leg.)

 

Yeah, honestly we looked better than the Americans did against them and T&T had a better team as well. 

[Bigandy]

I've been very surprised with the criticism of our play prior to the goal and then the positive feedback of the guys who came on after the goal. 

1. We all knew that T and T would sit back. This game was about winning. We shouldnt have been going crazy trying to force a goal. Patience is key in a match like this. 
2. We dont have a proper cam without oso. It makes breaking down the low block even more difficult. 
3. Once t and t needed a goal, we bring on fresh legs to counter and then we get shafs goal. This was extremely predictable. Did the subs do well, yes. But it was all part of the plan and very predictable.
4. We needed phonzie and buchanan to beat there man out wide in order to break down the low block. We werent going to do it through the middle with our player profiles. Obviously this will result in ball loss. 

Based on the criticism, i'm not sure how and what people want to see differently. Take off ugbo for a 4-5-1 and limit davies attacking production? The boys to blindly force more balls into the box or rush the build up? 

We were all concerned about counter attacks from T and T so us playing a bit slower and cautious nullifies this. Man city does this regularly but obviously has world class playmakers and finishers to punish small mistakes. If david or larin score their earlier chances, we win this game 4-0. 

[BearcatSA]

10 hours ago, GasPed said:

I agree with you - Davies in space is an absolute weapon.  But almost by definition, against a low block, he won't have space (nobody will).

Breaking down a low block takes chemistry, creativity and talent.  It's tough for a national team to get it right in a short training camp.  That said, I also think that Davies is a bit underrated here.  No, he can't dribble through a line of 5 defenders, but he can make a couple miss and that draws defenders and opens things up.  Case in point - everyone should go look at the OneSoccer highlights from yesterday's game and see how Davies' dribbling and movement created chances against that block in the first half.    

I agree with your perspective here.  You need strong combo play to open things up enough for that individual bit of invention.

The opponents played their strategy extremely well so I give credit where credit is due.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 minute ago, Bigandy said:

I've been very surprised with the criticism of our play prior to the goal and then the positive feedback of the guys who came on after the goal. 

1. We all knew that T and T would sit back. This game was about winning. We shouldnt have been going crazy trying to force a goal. Patience is key in a match like this. 
2. We dont have a proper cam without oso. It makes breaking down the low block even more difficult. 
3. Once t and t needed a goal, we bring on fresh legs to counter and then we get shafs goal. This was extremely predictable. Did the subs do well, yes. But it was all part of the plan and very predictable.
4. We needed phonzie and buchanan to beat there man out wide in order to break down the low block. We werent going to do it through the middle with our player profiles. Obviously this will result in ball loss. 

Based on the criticism, i'm not sure how and what people want to see differently. Take off ugbo for a 4-5-1 and limit davies attacking production? The boys to blindly force more balls into the box or rush the build up? 

We were all concerned about counter attacks from T and T so us playing a bit slower and cautious nullifies this. Man city does this regularly but obviously has world class playmakers and finishers to punish small mistakes. If david or larin score their earlier chances, we win this game 4-0. 

I agree and have said all of this elsewhere but

1) Despite working hard and making the passes he should and generally doing a decent job, David is not a CAM unless you are in transition.  His two shots that were not from a corner, were not really where you want him having chances, because he was playing withdrawn.  Also better to have him up pressing which he does better certainly than Larin.

2) We were trying to play with 3 box finishers. Maybe, maybe, later against a tired defensive team but not from the off. Normally it just makes defenders lives easier because they they know where the threats are and they are relatively close.

3) To break down a parked bus, you want runners from a variety of positions, while maintaining a good shape so you don't get caught out.  You pick your moments and rotate.

4) For our first real chance, Davies takes on two guys, loses the ball but doesn't give up, beats them eventually, then beats 2 more guys and draws another from Buchanan before making the pass.  Buchanan skies it; that goes in different game obviously.  Another he  beat his man on the wing  and draws another leaving Eustaquio open. Eustaquio receives his pass and gives a perfect cut back to Larin who doesn't seem ready and scuffs it.  Even if we might get frustrated with him, he is still a major contributor.

[Bigandy]

7 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I agree and have said all of this elsewhere but

1) Despite working hard and making the passes he should and generally doing a decent job, David is not a CAM unless you are in transition.  His two shots that were not from a corner, were not really where you want him having chances, because he was playing withdrawn.  Also better to have him up pressing which he does better certainly than Larin.

2) We were trying to play with 3 box finishers. Maybe, maybe, later against a tired defensive team but not from the off. Normally it just makes defenders lives easier because they they know where the threats are and they are relatively close.

3) To break down a parked bus, you want runners from a variety of positions, while maintaining a good shape so you don't get caught out.  You pick your moments and rotate.

4) For our first real chance, Davies takes on two guys, loses the ball but doesn't give up, beats them eventually, then beats 2 more guys and draws another from Buchanan before making the pass.  Buchanan skies it; that goes in different game obviously.  Another he  beat his man on the wing  and draws another leaving Eustaquio open. Eustaquio receives his pass and gives a perfect cut back to Larin who doesn't seem ready and scuffs it.  Even if we might get frustrated with him, he is still a major contributor.

Great points 

to add. 
1. doesnt david have a very small number of goals outside the box? 

2. I agree. I'm not sure what the solution is though. Move david up and put choiniere in the middle?  3-4-2-1 with shaf WB and davies or buchanan and david playing off larin? Without a creative 10 its becomes difficult. I think ahmed couldve helped this game. 

3. This is how we got the first goal. Buchanan runs forward and plays to ugbo who has larin rotating around him for the layoff. However there didnt seem to be enough runs forward. Mostly horizontal. I think staq could make some runs but then we get caught out. He's also better at arriving late so not the main guy to break a low block.

4. Right. A massive contributor. In a game like this, we have to let davies express himself. Its not like t and t can hold the ball so we are getting it back right after he loses it and then we are going to try again. 

[BearcatSA]

38 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

1) Despite working hard and making the passes he should and generally doing a decent job, David is not a CAM unless you are in transition.  His two shots that were not from a corner, were not really where you want him having chances, because he was playing withdrawn.  Also better to have him up pressing which he does better certainly than Larin.

I prefer David as a forward who drops into pockets of space that get created by other runs.  So, my thinking is about having an extra true central midfielder joining Eustaquio and Koné either as a more dedicated holding d-mid behind them or as a linking mid contributing to the ball movement in the attacking third but who can drop back and do the defensive support as needed.

[GasPed]

1 hour ago, BearcatSA said:

I agree with your perspective here.  You need strong combo play to open things up enough for that individual bit of invention.

The opponents played their strategy extremely well so I give credit where credit is due.

This.  And I think this is where Biello needs to get some criticism - we know full well T&T is going to play low block.  So how do you break it down?  You need film work, chalkboard and then lots of field work to get the chemistry, not some gimmicky three striker set up.  Unless the three strikers is actually what they practiced, in which case, it didn't work out very well.

[Bigandy]

8 minutes ago, GasPed said:

This.  And I think this is where Biello needs to get some criticism - we know full well T&T is going to play low block.  So how do you break it down?  You need film work, chalkboard and then lots of field work to get the chemistry, not some gimmicky three striker set up.  Unless the three strikers is actually what they practiced, in which case, it didn't work out very well.

In fairness, Biello won 2-0. What more do we want? He genuinely was able to break down the low block. It was tough but it worked, just like we all expected. 

His gimmicky 3 striker set up (which was actually just 2 strikers and David in midfield) is what set up the goal as ugbo and larin played off each other. 

At this level, I think biello did exactly what was required. The problem is that even if biello won this game 10-0, I dont think hes the man who can elevate our squad to the next level. 

[GasPed]

14 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

In fairness, Biello won 2-0. What more do we want? He genuinely was able to break down the low block. It was tough but it worked, just like we all expected. 

His gimmicky 3 striker set up (which was actually just 2 strikers and David in midfield) is what set up the goal as ugbo and larin played off each other. 

At this level, I think biello did exactly what was required. The problem is that even if biello won this game 10-0, I dont think hes the man who can elevate our squad to the next level. 

Sorry, thought I was preaching to the anti-Biello choir, but evidently I wasn't.  😉  And yeah, it wasn't really a three striker set-up, it was three strikers playing in a two striker/withdrawn striker set-up.  That said, I saw a lot of guys running into each other and each other's space.  It reminded me of Julian Nagelsmann's "We don't need Lewandowski, when everyone can be a striker" set-up at Bayern.  Flooding the attacking zone with players just brings more defenders, and it creates a mess unless guys know their patterns, how to circulate with their movements, how to read each other.

In the end, yes, they got a result, but it was really hard work and far from a sure thing.  Was that Biello's fault or was it Biello's genius?  Answer: Yes. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, GasPed said:

Sorry, thought I was preaching to the anti-Biello choir, but evidently I wasn't.  😉  And yeah, it wasn't really a three striker set-up, it was three strikers playing in a two striker/withdrawn striker set-up.  That said, I saw a lot of guys running into each other and each other's space.  It reminded me of Julian Nagelsmann's "We don't need Lewandowski, when everyone can be a striker" set-up at Bayern.  Flooding the attacking zone with players just brings more defenders, and it creates a mess unless guys know their patterns, how to circulate with their movements, how to read each other.

In the end, yes, they got a result, but it was really hard work and far from a sure thing.  Was that Biello's fault or was it Biello's genius?  Answer: Yes. 

Normally with 3 upfront, two are able to and do run wide channels. They then can at least support the wide men. And draw defenders out.

Again it's a case of playing our best and/in form players and making formation out of them.  It feels like very little strategy other than be better than the other team, which in fairness worked at the end of the day.

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

His gimmicky 3 striker set up (which was actually just 2 strikers and David in midfield) is what set up the goal as ugbo and larin played off each other. 

Both our goals were in transition, where they could run with a bit of space.  To their credit all three were good in their movement.  

That also comes later in the game when your team is fitter than the other.  Decent level professional teams spend loads keeping their players fit and to me it shows that our players now come from such teams.

Edited March 25 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Bigandy]

38 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Normally with 3 upfront, two are able to and do run wide channels. They then can at least support the wide men. And draw defenders out.

Again it's a case of playing our best and/in form players and making formation out of them.  It feels like very little strategy other than be better than the other team, which in fairness worked at the end of the day.

Both our goals were in transition, where they could run with a bit of space.  To their credit all three were good in their movement.  

That also comes later in the game when your team is fitter than the other.  Decent level professional teams spend loads keeping their players fit and to me it shows that our players now come from such teams.

The first goal had t and t in a 5-3-2 set up with both the 5 and 3 lines behind the ball when johnston passes to buchanan out wide from our half. The 3 just jogged but it wasnt in transition. The chubby centermid just didnt cut any lanes and was lost. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

13 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

The first goal had t and t in a 5-3-2 set up with both the 5 and 3 lines behind the ball when johnston passes to buchanan out wide from our half. The 3 just jogged but it wasnt in transition. The chubby centermid just didnt cut any lanes and was lost. 

I guess our definitions are different.  Their lines were not set and Ugbo's touch was at pace, barely inside the box. 

[Bigandy]

16 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I guess our definitions are different.  Their lines were not set and Ugbo's touch was at pace, barely inside the box. 

Same page, different words. They were not set up in their preferred block. 

You are 100% right that it came at a moment where buchanan was between the 5 and 3. The wingback then came out wide to defend him which created gaps. 
 

Edited March 25 by Bigandy