Match Thread: FIFA U-17 World Cup: Group B - Matchday 2 - Canada v Uzbekistan - November 13, 2023 - 7am ET / 4am PT (7pm local time)

[SoccMan]

22 minutes ago, gator said:

I have to agree with you, with the odd exception I don't think our academies are doing a very good job at this point, I know the overall talent level can be cyclical but you would think with 3 MLS academies we could put a better product on the pitch!

How do these academies do whenever they play in tournaments against other European or Mexican or South American academies in tournaments like the Dallas Cup or the MLS academy tournaments where they invite pro academy teams from some of the top teams in the world ? I would imagine these Canadian MLS academies have played against much better teams than this Uzbekistan team . Getting blown out by this team is incredibly embarrassing. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by SoccMan

[toontownman]

1 hour ago, phresh said:

Is it really so hard to hire a decently competent coach?

Just not hiring the same consistently incompetent one over and over would be a start.

[Macktruck]

The problem is systemic. These aren't bad players the system is failing them. the rest of the world has moved on but not us. We have people in place who say all the right things but doesn't really acton them them(they have all the buzz words and catch phases"low block..4 corner development etc) but no plan on how to install or execute them. The talent pool and catchment and tbh resources(the MLS academies) they need to do better at educating these boys in the game. basics about movemnet and shape and game intelligence that seem after watching two games seems not to be there. The two teams we have played the players just seem more with it, connected to the game we still pick atheltes first...this is first hand knowlegde I have a good friend who works at the REX centre and they try to offer ways to impliment real change and are met with an absolute no. They are offered ways to do it but all these guyy(Like olivera) are just tryong to keep their jobs and not rock the boat. Someone said its his 4th tournament without a win and he still has a job? Where else and what other profession would that ever happen???

We as a country need to decide that we are going to loose for the next 3-5 years( at the youh level for sure) but actually make a whole sale change from top to bottom. I mean an absolute gut job. And start to actually take these extremely talented players and educate them in the trade of football. It is a trade a job that needs to be taught and nurtured and mentored. Even the most talented players(Messi, Imbappe,Henry.. anyone reallly )came through a rigid specific program with metrics, goals and resources to help them..

Like Germany did after their euro or like australia did in the 90s... naything short of that this will continue day after day tournamnet after tournament

[Dominic94]

It has been said before a lot of people at the grassroots levels are blocking systemic changes.

either way yes Olivieri needs to go.

[harrycoyster]

35 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

It has been said before a lot of people at the grassroots levels are blocking systemic changes.

either way yes Olivieri needs to go.

Bingo. We don't have a functioning youth soccer infrastructure because too many local-level clubs and leagues aren't interested in being a pitstop in a larger pipeline. They want to keep their kids/costumers in their ecosystem until they age out.

The amount of recruitment that TFC and the Caps have to do is outrageous, even by American standards. Meanwhile in most European countries the players naturally filter up through a FA run youth soccer ecosystem. As long as the CSA is dysfunctional and unwilling to burn some bridges to build more modern ones, we aren't going to get anywhere near our potential.  

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Dominic94 said:

It has been said before a lot of people at the grassroots levels are blocking systemic changes.

either way yes Olivieri needs to go.

But let's face it: we hired Zambrano and word is he tried to shake things up, upset a few local yokels and we replaced him. 

With Herdman, who had like 7 years to do the job, because he had responsibility for the entire program. He never gave a damn about development, never shook the boat with youth teams, washed his hands of a widespread mess he was being paid to clean up. Blaming Olivieri for his survival mode bureaucratic ways is unfair when Herdman could have killed that way of doing things off and refused to, thinking about his own systemic survival. 

[narduch]

5 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

But let's face it: we hired Zambrano and word is he tried to shake things up, upset a few local yokels and we replaced him. 

With Herdman, who had like 7 years to do the job, because he had responsibility for the entire program. He never gave a damn about development, never shook the boat with youth teams, washed his hands of a widespread mess he was being paid to clean up. Blaming Olivieri for his survival mode bureaucratic ways is unfair when Herdman could have killed that way of doing things off and refused to, thinking about his own systemic survival. 

And remember Herdman promoted Olivieri to head of youth programs too.

[Big_M]

how many more years does olivieri get in the canadian program?? is he on a lifetime contract???

[narduch]

2 minutes ago, Big_M said:

how many more years does olivieri get in the canadian program?? is he on a lifetime contract???

I'm hoping he's out once we get a new manager 

[Ottawafan]

46 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

But let's face it: we hired Zambrano and word is he tried to shake things up, upset a few local yokels and we replaced him. 

With Herdman, who had like 7 years to do the job, because he had responsibility for the entire program. He never gave a damn about development, never shook the boat with youth teams, washed his hands of a widespread mess he was being paid to clean up. Blaming Olivieri for his survival mode bureaucratic ways is unfair when Herdman could have killed that way of doing things off and refused to, thinking about his own systemic survival. 

Development is not the role of the CSA and our national teams.  Yes the top team needs to integrate young talent and help nurture them going forward within the context of the NT's.  But development starts at the club levels and as they move forward, the pro academies.  My old technical coach who was qualified to coach our mens national team, would berate our kids with accurate pass, first touch.  Over and over again.  Every time.

Watching these kids over the last 2 games ( and I get 2 games in one setting isn't enough to determine completely a players abilities ) you do see a trend.  At this level, our kids couldn't consistently do either. 

[Ottawafan]

1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

Bingo. We don't have a functioning youth soccer infrastructure because too many local-level clubs and leagues aren't interested in being a pitstop in a larger pipeline. They want to keep their kids/costumers in their ecosystem until they age out.

The amount of recruitment that TFC and the Caps have to do is outrageous, even by American standards. Meanwhile in most European countries the players naturally filter up through a FA run youth soccer ecosystem. As long as the CSA is dysfunctional and unwilling to burn some bridges to build more modern ones, we aren't going to get anywhere near our potential.  

 

There is no real understanding as to why youth clubs are training kids.  To what purpose other than keeping kids playing/paying do they exist?

[Soccerpro2]

A few months ago I posted that Uzbekistan's youth teams were far superior to ours. 

I got several posters strongly disagreeing with me responding with absolute nonsense.

Sad to say the result today wasn't very surprising.

Our whole program is shambles, but especially at the youth level.

 

 

[SpursFlu]

I think our system is in shambles in choosing a u17 team. You can't have a system in a country as vast as Canada basically choosing from 3 teams who don't even play against each other. How do you ever compare players who never set foot on the same field at the same time? These MLS academies are great, cool.. but they need to be playing in a Canadian system against Canadian teams so we can properly identify our best players for the proper opportunities 

[Soccerpro2]

9 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I think our system is in shambles in choosing a u17 team. You can't have a system in a country as vast as Canada basically choosing from 3 teams who don't even play against each other. How do you ever compare players who never set foot on the same field at the same time? These MLS academies are great, cool.. but they need to be playing in a Canadian system against Canadian teams so we can properly identify our best players for the proper opportunities 

How do you fix that? Some previous youth national team coaches said there was no money to go scout in person. That's when our youth national teams were actually funded much better than what they are today.

Is the CSA going to try to threaten MLS academies to leave their U.S leagues which objectively provide a higher level of competition and longer season?

 

[Stoppage Time]

5 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I think our system is in shambles in choosing a u17 team. You can't have a system in a country as vast as Canada basically choosing from 3 teams who don't even play against each other. How do you ever compare players who never set foot on the same field at the same time? These MLS academies are great, cool.. but they need to be playing in a Canadian system against Canadian teams so we can properly identify our best players for the proper opportunities 

I'll bet that if we go back to the last U17 WC and the one before that, we would find the same range of comments that we see here - disbelief, disappointment, disillusion, dissatisfaction, and disaffection. So, all of you are correct - the entire system is rotten and needs to be torn down and rebuilt.

And, make no mistake. Herdman's run to the WC in Qatar changes very little with respect to the long term success of the entire program.

I did not watch the match today, but judging by the consensus apparent here, I did not miss anything remotely satisfying. 

BTW - Can Devos get rid of Olivieri or is that a board decision? This coach HAS to go!

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

I'm hoping he's out once we get a new manager 

The new manager will give him the boot only at risk to his own job, we have all these private Ryans we have to save because that's the narrative. We have players like this, and coaches, and managers, all these untouchable darlings. 

Oh, and Ian @Stoppage Time, as a friend, please, in all sincerity, because I appreciate you, don't watch, there are so many better and more positive things you can do with those 2 hours.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Stoppage Time]

14 minutes ago, Soccerpro2 said:

How do you fix that? Some previous youth national team coaches said there was no money to go scout in person. That's when our youth national teams were actually funded much better than what they are today.

 

 

I wonder about the entire scouting system. For those of you in the know, does minor hockey have such a poor scouting system? It would seem to not be so. Could that be copied in the soccer world to some effective degree? I wonder if the TD's and head coaches from various clubs and academies in Canada ever get together and nominate players for provincial or national camps. For example, when I ran a club basketball team many years ago, I asked coaches in our school league to nominate players from other schools, not from their own school. This removed the homer bias completely and worked very well. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Stoppage Time
punctuation

[Ottawafan]

CSA and the various provincial bodies are just as guilty for not going out to scout and relying on the pro academies to essentially determine who the soccer bodies choose.  Goes back to the Twardek situatuon.  CSA coaches would not go out and look at him in their own backyard!!  Had zero to do with budget.  Pure laziness and incompetence.

[SpursFlu]

42 minutes ago, Soccerpro2 said:

How do you fix that? Some previous youth national team coaches said there was no money to go scout in person. That's when our youth national teams were actually funded much better than what they are today.

Is the CSA going to try to threaten MLS academies to leave their U.S leagues which objectively provide a higher level of competition and longer season?

 

It must make financial sense to be more local and domestic. Can't the MLS academies fit in to the League 1 structure? Or a youth L1 type structure

But I genuinely think top 16 17 year olds are better off in CPL first team than playing on an MLS academy 

I feel like our players play like it's a practice. They're going through the motions. Like robots. That's what these academies preach. Winning doesn't matter, just fundamentals. That's what our players look like. They're playing like winning doest matter. No personality 

Edited November 13, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Vasi]

3 hours ago, Dominic94 said:

It has been said before a lot of people at the grassroots levels are blocking systemic changes.

either way yes Olivieri needs to go.

This. 

Also, we need a national training center. We need to staff it with experienced people from outside of Noth America. That includes the whole CSA. 

When our players go to Europe, the one consistent thing they say is how better run it is over there. Coaching, tactics, organization...ect.

This is what Tennis Canada did in 2007. They got a guy from Monaco to oversee the tennis training center. They also invested a million dollars a year on programs. Now we have some of the best players in the world. 

In Canada we have the players, but our admin are not experienced enough to take us to the next level. This is why I feel having a head coach who is Canadian with Canadian experience, or a foreigner with Canadian or limited experience is a VERY BAD IDEA. We get tactically outclassed and outmatched at evey level. 

[xabuep2]

1 hour ago, Big_M said:

how many more years does olivieri get in the canadian program?? is he on a lifetime contract???

His equivalent in women's football is Bev Priestman. A failure with Canada's youth women's teams. Another failure with Canada's participation in the Soccer World Cup and they rewarded her by continuing in office.

[InglewoodJack]

31 minutes ago, Stoppage Time said:

I wonder about the entire scouting system. For those of you in the know, does minor hockey have such a poor scouting system? It would seem to not be so. Could that be copied in the soccer world to some effective degree? I wonder if the TD's and head coaches from various clubs and academies in Canada ever get together and nominate players for provincial or national camps. For example, when I ran a club basketball team many years ago, I asked coaches in our school league to nominate players from other schools, not from their own school. This removed the homer bias completely and worked very well. 

Hockey scouting is poor in Canada- it's mired by nepotism, favouritism, focusing on specific regions, so on. The difference is just like soccer players in Brazil, you can shake any tree in Canada and 5 future NHLers fall out. We don't have nearly the same margin of error in soccer.

On the note of basketball, I think Canada, especially Quebec is doing a great job at identifying and developing talent. We have I believe 5 pros in the league currently, which, hey, if we could get 5 Montrealers in the premier league, a league with triple the amount of roster spots and nowhere near the concentration of talent that the NBA has, that would literally be generation-defining for us. A lot of that has to do with the opportunities that the NBA's international academy in Mexico City has offered, but also, the fact that there are more elite basketball schools in Quebec, both in and out of Montreal. Lu Dort came up through the Brookwood Academy in Montreal that competes in AAU, then went to an elite academy in Ontario. Chris Boucher was plucked out of his fry cook job at St. Hubert in Hochelaga to go play for an elite academy in the middle of nowhere in Alma I believe. These pathways are not available to soccer players in Montreal. It's CF Montreal, hope to god that an NCAA scout sees you, or you hope your agent really does have connections in Belgium or wherever.

A lot of this just goes back to what we all know- more pathways for young players that doesn't depend on whoever can afford the bill. Following the French model and building elite academies nationwide with a central hub that also serves as our NT's home grounds is step #1. Developing closer ties to specific leagues or teams abroad is another one. The Bundesliga is investing heavily into USL scouting- something similar with the Belgian or Scottish league or whatever in Canada would be great. You see a team like Celtic and how successful they've been at bringing players over from Japan, and I wonder what a competitive team who has first dibs on the 4-5 Canadians good enough to play for their team.

[Dominic94]

21 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Hockey scouting is poor in Canada- it's mired by nepotism, favouritism, focusing on specific regions, so on. The difference is just like soccer players in Brazil, you can shake any tree in Canada and 5 future NHLers fall out. We don't have nearly the same margin of error in soccer.

On the note of basketball, I think Canada, especially Quebec is doing a great job at identifying and developing talent. We have I believe 5 pros in the league currently, which, hey, if we could get 5 Montrealers in the premier league, a league with triple the amount of roster spots and nowhere near the concentration of talent that the NBA has, that would literally be generation-defining for us. A lot of that has to do with the opportunities that the NBA's international academy in Mexico City has offered, but also, the fact that there are more elite basketball schools in Quebec, both in and out of Montreal. Lu Dort came up through the Brookwood Academy in Montreal that competes in AAU, then went to an elite academy in Ontario. Chris Boucher was plucked out of his fry cook job at St. Hubert in Hochelaga to go play for an elite academy in the middle of nowhere in Alma I believe. These pathways are not available to soccer players in Montreal. It's CF Montreal, hope to god that an NCAA scout sees you, or you hope your agent really does have connections in Belgium or wherever.

A lot of this just goes back to what we all know- more pathways for young players that doesn't depend on whoever can afford the bill. Following the French model and building elite academies nationwide with a central hub that also serves as our NT's home grounds is step #1. Developing closer ties to specific leagues or teams abroad is another one. The Bundesliga is investing heavily into USL scouting- something similar with the Belgian or Scottish league or whatever in Canada would be great. You see a team like Celtic and how successful they've been at bringing players over from Japan, and I wonder what a competitive team who has first dibs on the 4-5 Canadians good enough to play for their team.

This except that Brookwood is a program and not an academy. But a very good one. They’ve been huge forever.

[frmr]

38 minutes ago, Vasi said:

This. 

Also, we need a national training center. We need to staff it with experienced people from outside of Noth America. That includes the whole CSA. 

When our players go to Europe, the one consistent thing they say is how better run it is over there. Coaching, tactics, organization...ect.

This is what Tennis Canada did in 2007. They got a guy from Monaco to oversee the tennis training center. They also invested a million dollars a year on programs. Now we have some of the best players in the world. 

In Canada we have the players, but our admin are not experienced enough to take us to the next level. This is why I feel having a head coach who is Canadian with Canadian experience, or a foreigner with Canadian or limited experience is a VERY BAD IDEA. We get tactically outclassed and outmatched at evey level. 

I fully agree with this. Whenever I read posters saying they want Canadians in top positions in coaching/admin with Canada Soccer, I scratch my head. We have a ton of data showing how awful we are in those areas. Not sure how much more evidence is needed. We need to bring in people who have experience at the elite level in coaching and administration, and there simply aren't any Canadians who have reached that level. In a few decades that may change, but currently we don't have the personnel in this country to take ourselves to the next level.

[harrycoyster]

1 hour ago, SpursFlu said:

It must make financial sense to be more local and domestic. Can't the MLS academies fit in to the League 1 structure? Or a youth L1 type structure

But I genuinely think top 16 17 year olds are better off in CPL first team than playing on an MLS academy 

I feel like our players play like it's a practice. They're going through the motions. Like robots. That's what these academies preach. Winning doesn't matter, just fundamentals. That's what our players look like. They're playing like winning doest matter. No personality 

Back ten or so years ago, the MLS teams played locally and essentially never lost a game while playing their entire rosters up age groups. I recall watching Vancouver's u16s thrash Costal by double digit goals before going to Dallas Cup and getting embarrassed by American and Mexican teams. The teams need to be there, the competition is so much better than what non-MLS Canadian clubs can offer. The issue with a Canadian youth league is purely that the talent that isn't in MLS academies before u17 is so fractured that it is essentially impossible to find a half decent contest. Fixing that has to be from the bottom up, not by pushing the top down.

The MLS teams are spending millions on academy teams, millions on Next Pro, and hundreds of thousands on playerID. They are the de facto scouting network of Canadian soccer because nobody else, including the CSA, is willing to spend the money. They aren't the good guys here, but they aren't the problem. 

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by harrycoyster