Match Thread: FIFA U-17 World Cup: Group B - Matchday 2 - Canada v Uzbekistan - November 13, 2023 - 7am ET / 4am PT (7pm local time)

[shermanator]

1 hour ago, Footyeh said:

It's one thing to admit there is an MLS bias, but this player was simply not better than the other options.  He was brought into a camp and it was plain to see he wasn't good enough (maybe at that time).  If he hadn't gotten a look at all, that's another argument.  If there was a player left off who deserved to be there, it was Massud Habibullah who at the time was leading the USSDA in scoring at U17.  

Calvary has done a good job at moving players on, sure.  But none of those transfers were or will be as lucrative as if they found the top 16 year old in Alberta and invested 2000+ minutes in him like Van FC are doing with Tahid.  Why should "your club" focus on youth?  Because that's your club's role is in this Canadian Soccer pyramid.  To develop talent for the national team and to create a larger pool of Canadian talent playing professionally.  The CPL has to realize it's place in a global marketplace.  The single greatest investment a CPL team can make is to invest in young talent.  The single biggest return on investment a CPL team can make is selling a developed young talent to top European clubs/leagues.  Those are the players who have the best chance to become key national team players.  You have good talent in the CPL that can play much higher, but the league as a whole isn't a high enough level for each team to not be playing 1-3 teenagers.

What you provide are intrinsic reasons for a CPL club to create an academy, but given the financial reality of launching a domestic league in a sport where there is no money, even at the top levels, this is not a good enough reason to spend even more money at risk to your club's future. 

What is important to CPL clubs first and foremost is sustainability. That means investing their money wisely and making sure that their clubs are around 10, 20, 50 years from now. It is far more realistic to sign local 16, 17, 19 youth players and move them on for smaller sums of money. 

The big payoff of a transfer such as Alphonso Davies is a dream scenario, one that is unrealistic to expect more than on rare occasion. And starting an academy doesn't magically create more Alphonso Davies' out of nowhere.

[El Hombre]

I can't believe I avoided all news all day just to fast forward through that garbage.  These kids are only 17 so I'm not going to rip on any of them, but at some point Olivieri needs to be found out, right?

[Kent]

Very depressing game. So it wasn't just Spain that made it look like pros vs rec league, that's 2 games in a row that felt the same. When we get the ball we have a player with the ball with no idea what to do and we have 10 players that go "Phew, good for him. Good luck buddy!" and wait to see what happens instead of trying to help him. And as others have said, this isn't necessarily the player's fault. It really seems like these are the tactics. Olivieri has to go, and I don't know how we up our coaching game across the board (not just talking about CSA, or the MLS academies, but literally across the board) but it's necessary.

As for the debate about MLS academy teams playing in American leagues, it doesn't look like we are seeing improvements since they left Canadian leagues. At least based on U17 and U20 national team performances, and the constant stream of players developed outside the MLS academies making the CMNT (Johnstone, Buchanan, Kone, etc). I always thought (from the outside, I don't know anything really) that by moving to the American leagues, the MLS teams are missing a chance at better recruiting. How often do we see players join a club after having played against them? Also, the MLS teams playing in Canadian leagues can potentially push the other clubs to do better, if they are in fact getting destroyed constantly. But with how bad this tournament has looked, I am wondering if there is another thing at play. Please, anyone who is actually in the trenches and knows what is going on let me know, are there kids that don't want to play for the MLS academies due to the increased travel demands of playing in an American league? Like, it seems like things are worse now than they were 10 years ago at this World Cup. Are our best players not joining MLS academies for one reason or another, but we are still relying on MLS academies to do our scouting for us?

[Kent]

14 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

Didn’t watch, but were there any positive moments? This looks bleak 

I was making my breakfast before kick off but had it on in the background. I am pretty sure I heard "Thunderstruck" being played in the stadium and I think "Seven Nation Army" as well. I like those songs, they were the positive moments.

There was one chance early when I hadn't yet realized I was cheering for black rather than white, so that probably would have been positive if I had known I should have been excited instead of nervous in that moment🤣

[TOcanadafan]

1 hour ago, Dominic94 said:

From a hockey guy my POV

In hockey we all have mandatory courses to take, and X course qualifies you for X level. I didn’t complete mine due to covid for example and can’t coach higher than U-12 AAA because I didn’t submit the workbook. The course qualifies me up to Major Junior.

My local course allowed me to coach the AA and A categories.

I had a course for just local house league. 
 

I had to take a course for physical contact (stick checking and checking the stick). 
 

Same deal for teaching contact.

Each was a barrier to the next level, I had to pass through it to be able to progress to the next. Let alone building up a resume, why ? Because that is the standards, we have coaches and curriculums everywhere. 
 

We don’t have this in soccer, we don’t have academies that are purposely set up and have set tactics or développement philosophies at a young age.

I can tell you what several different associations develop, and the skills they focus on and I can tell you their tactics and ideas from their u10 to their u18, it’s all uniform and one idea.

 

i can’t tell you any of this for soccer. Which is sad because that’s what everyone is doing.

Was thinking the same thing...

I know that Hockey Canada has its issues, but one thing they have done right is the implementation of their player and skills development plan, as well as their coaching resource development.  We don't need to go half way around the world for a blueprint for a highly strategic, focused and accessible team sport development model. 

Download the Canada Soccer Long Term Player Development plan (7 pages) and compare it to Hockey Canada's (64 pages).  Check out coaching resources available from Canada Soccer on its website - a small booklet or go to provincial sites* which may have a few basic drills with videos... compare to Hockey Canada and they have 60 pages with 12 drills accompanied by videos on each page, searchable / sortable by age group and type.  A kid in elite hockey in any location in the country is performing the same age specific drills more-or-less and learning similar basic systems of play. 

Alas, all of this takes a commitment to a centralized system (elimination of the provincial structure) and more importantly tonnes of money to implement, so not sure even if the vision and plan to move forward was there, how much could be executed.

[Footyeh]

4 hours ago, shermanator said:

What you provide are intrinsic reasons for a CPL club to create an academy, but given the financial reality of launching a domestic league in a sport where there is no money, even at the top levels, this is not a good enough reason to spend even more money at risk to your club's future. 

What is important to CPL clubs first and foremost is sustainability. That means investing their money wisely and making sure that their clubs are around 10, 20, 50 years from now. It is far more realistic to sign local 16, 17, 19 youth players and move them on for smaller sums of money. 

The big payoff of a transfer such as Alphonso Davies is a dream scenario, one that is unrealistic to expect more than on rare occasion. And starting an academy doesn't magically create more Alphonso Davies' out of nowhere.

Signing young players brings sustainability.  Teams (including Calvary) are spending money on bad-average players every year, how is that sustainable?  How does that improve the quality of play in the league or for the fans?  Also selling young players is not just about the initial fee, it's things like Future Sell-On %'s, the ability to participate in Training Compensation, the ability for the league to build a reputation in the global marketplace as a league for developing young talent (Like the USL is doing).  

[SthMelbRed]

1 hour ago, Footyeh said:

Signing young players brings sustainability.  Teams (including Calvary) are spending money on bad-average players every year, how is that sustainable?  How does that improve the quality of play in the league or for the fans?  Also selling young players is not just about the initial fee, it's things like Future Sell-On %'s, the ability to participate in Training Compensation, the ability for the league to build a reputation in the global marketplace as a league for developing young talent (Like the USL is doing).  

Developing and featuring homegrown players also builds a connection with the local fan base. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

Going back to the Golden Ball and Boot of past u17 championships, I'd have to agree that the age is not determinant, as some are arguing. 

There are very few clear future stars, if pushed, just Cesc Fabregas, Kroos and Foden. Most only panned out partially, or not at all.

But the point is that it's a national identity question and entertainment as well, they don't play for themselves. I'm not wringing my hands for the future of the national team, I'm pissed they defended the colours poorly and ruined my entertainment package.

[harrycoyster]

13 hours ago, Stoppage Time said:

If an academy, VWFC for example, recruits a kid from, say, Surrey United FC (a large amateur club in BC),  and the kid ends up joining the academy, does the club get compensated for its role in developing the kid? If not, then that would be a very good incentive for clubs to do their best to move top kids up the ladder (pyramid) to higher levels. Would it not?

No official system in place to compensate academies for non-professionals moving between clubs, though Vancouver and Toronto have handshake agreements with most of the major academies in their HG territory (Montreal might as well, I'm just less familiar). Those agreements are usually general funding and/or training agreements with small bonuses when a player moves. $40kUSD is the highest bonus I've heard of, between the Sounders and an academy called Crossfire. I'd say 10-25% of Canadian academies refuse cooperation and the MLS teams try to work the parents in those cases.

That said, the lack of structure in Canadian youth soccer is most harmful at the younger age groups - before pro academies can reach them. The MLS teams aren't going to bring u12 players in from over 200km away and those players aren't coalescing at high-level regional academies which limits growth and makes player ID much more difficult. 

[Ottawafan]

12 hours ago, Footyeh said:

 

 Why should "your club" focus on youth?  Because that's your club's role is in this Canadian Soccer pyramid.  To develop talent for the national team and to create a larger pool of Canadian talent playing professionally. 

Loved reading this thread, some really good points made.  Nice to see there are those that can see the problems in our game at the various levels and seeing how change can be effected.  

This quote caught my eye.  I made a comment the other day here about why are we doing what we are doing in terms of "development"?   To what purpose are we developing kids at whatever level they are at?  There is no direction towards what the end game is as each entity is "developing" kids but to what goal?  That is what should be fueling coaches, players, clubs... to get them ready for the next level but ultimately to the national team.  Because all I see is clubs protecting their turf as it is a business and a pissing contest.

[SpursFlu]

With all the players going thru the Whitecaps academy over the last ten years who features in their team? Ryan Raposo

I'm not saying he's better maybe he is? But can someone explain this to me?

Look on the other side of the country. On our national team, how many players are TFC and how many League1O?

Edited November 14, 2023 by SpursFlu