Victor Loturi

[GasPed]

38 minutes ago, Northvansteve said:

Finally gets his minutes and...I'm wasn't impressed tbh. Looked completely lost out there.

How did everyone else feel about his brief appearance?

Think you're being a bit hard on him - no, he wasn't Ahmed II but he was fairly lively, he got stuck in a couple times, and despite a couple passes that were off, that long through ball to Laryea was a thing of beauty.  He also didn't give the ball away due to overplaying or stupidity.  Overall I think it was a solid C/C+.

[kacbru]

The game was a complete shambles when he came on - there was no structure that I could see, so hard to judge.

[Cheeta]

Yeah, not sure there is any insight to be gained from Loturi joining that match at that time.  One way or another.

A proper blooding will have to wait for another day.  Congrats to the man all the same.  Welcome aboard, lad. 

[Ottawafan]

If you are giving out a grade for Loturi the only fair choice would be an incomplete. Can’t judge his game based in the few minutes he got at the end of the match. For all the new guys you can’t look at it as one game; you have to look at all the minutes they play in the GC. 

[Bigandy]

The biggest takeaway I got was that loturi isnt the man to lead (or even contribute) our midfield in the GC. He looked a bit lost and nervous. yes we had no shape but he misplaced some passes without much pressure against a bad opposition. I think he would be deer in the headlights against a better team. To me, Fraser is 100% above him (even though loturi has a higher ceiling). Its great to give him experience but his cameo puts to rest all the complaints about why he isnt starting. 

[InglewoodJack]

He played 21 minutes, 9/10 passes, 1/1 accurate long balls, I think it’s hard to evaluate his performance in any meaningful way, the game was over when he came on. I hope this isn’t the last we see of him though.

 

also, damn he looks young.

[Obinna]

Have to agree that incomplete would only be fair, but he does look like he has the tools to play at this level. He had that misplaced pass (to Nelson?) with no pressure, but he also had that fine pass to Laryea during some interplay that lead to the scoring chance for Nelson, who just couldn't get on the end of that Laryea cross.

For this tournament though I don't think we see him again. Not enough minutes to grow into it at this stage. Had it been Loturi starting the tourney instead of Bombito perhaps he would be looking comfortable enough to be leaned on, but he wasn't. Fraser should and will start ahead of him on Sunday:

------Millar----Cav-------

Nelson--Oso--Fraser--Hoilett

Ahmed--Miller--McGraw--Laryea

-----------St Clair-----------

* Perfect chance to build up McGraw. Vitoria hasn't had a good tournament and I thought Zach has been getting more comfortable, let that continue. Let him play against familiar MLS foes. Build him up for the future.

* It's clear Herdman trusts Ahmed and we can see why. Best option on the left right now.

* I have been saying repeatedly that Millar needs to play further forward and possibly in a 2 - well he did just that and got his goal. Remember, he came through Liverpool as a forward. He is very capable of playing there and it's about time he gets reps there for Canada. We have often trotted Hoilett up top as a depth option, but this should be Millar's role moving forward.

* Nelson has to start. Should have been picked from the beginning and starting from the beginning. Better late than never but I hope he's earned his spot now. His technique and skill will be needed against the US.

[Bigandy]

22 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

He played 21 minutes, 9/10 passes, 1/1 accurate long balls, I think it’s hard to evaluate his performance in any meaningful way, the game was over when he came on. I hope this isn’t the last we see of him though.

 

also, damn he looks young.

9/10 passes is slightly misleading. His passes were not as clean as they should be. If he made those passes against the USA, I doubt he would have gotten 90% passing. 

Im cheering for him and wish we saw more of him this tournament, but I 100% now see why he hasnt played any meaningful minutes. 

Ahmed, Kone and bombito at times has the "It" factor (to varying degrees). Mcgraw even has it to some extent (small extent) when you compare him to zator or waterman at the cmnt level.  Loturi did not look at all like he has that swagger about him. Hopefully one day he gets it but I bet if ahmed was in place of loturi, he would still have swagger regardless of the lack of shape. 

[VinceA]

Damn lots of "He ain't it" coming at a guy who played like 20 minutes against an already beaten opponent with lots of other subs in what seemed to be a random formation.

[dyslexic nam]

Yeah, anyone concluding that Loturi is or is not capable based on that brief appearance is jumping to conclusions.  I do put some weight on the fact that he only played that much over 3 games, but given Herdman’s reliance on familiar players I don’t think we can read too much into that either.  Bottom line is we need to see more from him.  

[InglewoodJack]

4 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

9/10 passes is slightly misleading. His passes were not as clean as they should be. If he made those passes against the USA, I doubt he would have gotten 90% passing. 

Im cheering for him and wish we saw more of him this tournament, but I 100% now see why he hasnt played any meaningful minutes. 

Ahmed, Kone and bombito at times has the "It" factor (to varying degrees). Mcgraw even has it to some extent (small extent) when you compare him to zator or waterman at the cmnt level.  Loturi did not look at all like he has that swagger about him. Hopefully one day he gets it but I bet if ahmed was in place of loturi, he would still have swagger regardless of the lack of shape. 

The passing thing is speculative, but my point was more so that he came in, played a tight game and did what he had to do. It was a game that was already over, we needed to protect our two goal lead, it was like 35 degrees at the stadium last night, and even if none of these things were true, I don't think you're going to see the "it factor" come through in 21 minutes of game time, but because all of those factors, he came in and played a conservative game. He's also not an offensive dynamo- his game is by definition more conservative and we're not going to see his value from isolated plays, but when he plays 90 minutes, completes 90% of his passes, has a few tackles and helps us walk away with a clean sheet.

Not saying Loturi is our next future star, but we need a way better look at him before making these declarations. We've seen Kone play worse than Loturi last night, and with what I've seen from him at Ross County, I've never seen him play as poorly as Bombito did tonight. I mean, he was one of the best players on the pitch when they played Celtic, a team that no Cuban player could make, and that featured Alistair Johnston, who he sonned. Let's give him a bit more time to play before we decide what type of player he's going to be.

I think the reason we haven't seen him play is probably because Herdman rates him around the same level as Liam Fraser, and since Fraser is more well known for the team, he gets priority.

[Ottawafan]

57 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

He played 21 minutes, 9/10 passes, 1/1 accurate long balls, I think it’s hard to evaluate his performance in any meaningful way, the game was over when he came on. I hope this isn’t the last we see of him though.

 

also, damn he looks young.

Anyone with any sense of soccer wouldn't make a determination on Loturi based on his few minutes of game time.

[Ottawafan]

26 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Yeah, anyone concluding that Loturi is or is not capable based on that brief appearance is jumping to conclusions.  I do put some weight on the fact that he only played that much over 3 games, but given Herdman’s reliance on familiar players I don’t think we can read too much into that either.  Bottom line is we need to see more from him.  

I wonder if we win the first game against Guadeloupe how Herdman utilizes his bench.  Do certain young players get more run based on the fact Canada is comfortably into the next round?

[dyslexic nam]

Just now, Ottawafan said:

I wonder if we win the first game against Guadeloupe how Herdman utilizes his bench.  Do certain young players get more run based on the fact Canada is comfortably into the next round?

Yeah, I know people have complained about Herdman’s use of the old guard in what was supposed to be Capapalooza, but I suspect he was forced into competing each game given the results.  

[BearcatSA]

Just now, Ottawafan said:

I wonder if we win the first game against Guadeloupe how Herdman utilizes his bench.  Do certain young players get more run based on the fact Canada is comfortably into the next round?

Possibly.  Loturi might have been given more of an audition.

[Aird25]

It took him 10 or so games to lock down a starting role in SPL but after that he was one of their most important players

[BearcatSA]

11 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Anyone with any sense of soccer wouldn't make a determination on Loturi based on his few minutes of game time.

I wouldn't base much of anything on playing the Cuban non-defectors in the same way I wouldn't determine much of anything about the US bombing soft Caribbean minnows 6-0.

Two teams coming into a QF from those scenarios makes me really curious as to what the play will be like.

[Watchmen]

I know people are excited for Loturi, but Herdman may have just felt he had enough depth at the role Loturi plays not to try him yet. We've seen some quality appearances from younger players at this tournament (even if it was forced on Herdman), so I think we can't be overly critical on one player not getting as much of an appearance as people would like.

[Bigandy]

15 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

The passing thing is speculative, but my point was more so that he came in, played a tight game and did what he had to do. It was a game that was already over, we needed to protect our two goal lead, it was like 35 degrees at the stadium last night, and even if none of these things were true, I don't think you're going to see the "it factor" come through in 21 minutes of game time, but because all of those factors, he came in and played a conservative game. He's also not an offensive dynamo- his game is by definition more conservative and we're not going to see his value from isolated plays, but when he plays 90 minutes, completes 90% of his passes, has a few tackles and helps us walk away with a clean sheet.

Not saying Loturi is our next future star, but we need a way better look at him before making these declarations. We've seen Kone play worse than Loturi last night, and with what I've seen from him at Ross County, I've never seen him play as poorly as Bombito did tonight. I mean, he was one of the best players on the pitch when they played Celtic, a team that no Cuban player could make, and that featured Alistair Johnston, who he sonned. Let's give him a bit more time to play before we decide what type of player he's going to be.

I think the reason we haven't seen him play is probably because Herdman rates him around the same level as Liam Fraser, and since Fraser is more well known for the team, he gets priority.

I think my statements are being extrapolated. Youre 100% correct in the grand scheme of things. However, if we are talking about the gold cup and his playing time, I think we can have some insights. A guy like nelson subs in and makes a positive impression. Ali is phenomenal. Zator is extremely underwhelming. If loturi showed like nelson or ali in the short time he was on the pitch (and obviously in training) then he would get more minutes. Conversely, no one is writing off Zator but surely we cant fault herdman for not starting him... 

No one is writing off loturis CMNT career. In fact, i think his inclusion is because we are doing a long term play. However, theres been tons of criticism of herdman for not playing loturi. Based on his performance, I think its safe to say he hasnt been lighting up training. Fraser looked far more assured. If WCQ was on the line, I am currently picking fraser over loturi. 

Basically, nothing about his performance showed that he is ready to be a starter at the GC (especially against better teams than cuba). There are some small indications that show he may not be ready. Playing loturi big minutes this tournament now seems like it would be the wrong play. I think herdman has managed him alot better than we give him credit for. 

 

 

[Bigandy]

35 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Anyone with any sense of soccer wouldn't make a determination on Loturi based on his few minutes of game time.

agreed. Although I do not think a single person here has made a final determination on Loturi? 

[InglewoodJack]

48 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think my statements are being extrapolated. Youre 100% correct in the grand scheme of things. However, if we are talking about the gold cup and his playing time, I think we can have some insights. A guy like nelson subs in and makes a positive impression. Ali is phenomenal. Zator is extremely underwhelming. If loturi showed like nelson or ali in the short time he was on the pitch (and obviously in training) then he would get more minutes. Conversely, no one is writing off Zator but surely we cant fault herdman for not starting him... 

No one is writing off loturis CMNT career. In fact, i think his inclusion is because we are doing a long term play. However, theres been tons of criticism of herdman for not playing loturi. Based on his performance, I think its safe to say he hasnt been lighting up training. Fraser looked far more assured. If WCQ was on the line, I am currently picking fraser over loturi. 

Basically, nothing about his performance showed that he is ready to be a starter at the GC (especially against better teams than cuba). There are some small indications that show he may not be ready. Playing loturi big minutes this tournament now seems like it would be the wrong play. I think herdman has managed him alot better than we give him credit for. 

 

 

I really don't think we can extrapolate this much from a 21 minute stint. Nelson and Ali both looked awesome, both are offensive players meaning that the things they need to do to have a great performance are a lot more noticeable than the things Loturi, a DM, has to do.

I don't think anyone- at least anyone who watches the games- wants to see Loturi start games, I think people are confused as to why he keeps getting called up but never plays, especially while Herdman talks about wanting players to go abroad and challenge themselves- something he's doing. Think it has more to do with the fact that we were down at half against Guadeloupe; not a scenario where you want to bring a guy on for the very first time ever, and we couldn't score against Guatemala, not a scenario where you bring on a DM- we needed goals. I think the reasons we haven't seen him play are better explained by the situations we've been in over the last 3 games than anything we can see in training.

I just don't think we can consider whether he has the "it" factor based on 21 minutes of game time. I've personally seen him do more impressive stuff at Ross County than Bombito (who is older) has done at Colorado, for example, but Mo has made some impressive plays for Canada over the last 3 (first 2 mostly) games. I can barely get a read on what we should expect from Bombito down the line based on playing significant minutes in 3 games, so with Loturi, we need a lot more time to get a read.

[Bigandy]

30 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I really don't think we can extrapolate this much from a 21 minute stint. Nelson and Ali both looked awesome, both are offensive players meaning that the things they need to do to have a great performance are a lot more noticeable than the things Loturi, a DM, has to do.

I don't think anyone- at least anyone who watches the games- wants to see Loturi start games, I think people are confused as to why he keeps getting called up but never plays, especially while Herdman talks about wanting players to go abroad and challenge themselves- something he's doing. Think it has more to do with the fact that we were down at half against Guadeloupe; not a scenario where you want to bring a guy on for the very first time ever, and we couldn't score against Guatemala, not a scenario where you bring on a DM- we needed goals. I think the reasons we haven't seen him play are better explained by the situations we've been in over the last 3 games than anything we can see in training.

I just don't think we can consider whether he has the "it" factor based on 21 minutes of game time. I've personally seen him do more impressive stuff at Ross County than Bombito (who is older) has done at Colorado, for example, but Mo has made some impressive plays for Canada over the last 3 (first 2 mostly) games. I can barely get a read on what we should expect from Bombito down the line based on playing significant minutes in 3 games, so with Loturi, we need a lot more time to get a read.

I think your extrapolating my comments again. The main line from my previous comment should be that "nothing about his performance showed that he is ready to be a starter at the GC" All my comments are based on just the gold cup. Obviously a longer term assessment is needed to see what role he can play for us. But we have had roughly 2 weeks worth of games and have to make decisions on his playing time accordingly. His 21 minute cameo showed enough that he's not ready to be a starter or even contribute significant minutes. 

There were many posts on here that slotted loturi as a starter in projected/desired line ups. Fraser has played a big role this tournament and loturi is a like for like replacement so its not entirely fair to say that the scenario is why we havnt used him. The scenario's of the game are why we do not use a 2nd/3rd string DM. Hes 2/3 string because of how he performs in training. 

The "it" factor to me has to do with confidence and body language, how they express themselves on the pitch etc. Ahmed is beaming with confidence. Loturi looked overawed against a horrible and defeated cuban side. Fraser, looked comfortable even if his skill let him down at times. 

I mean, its a bit of a cop out to say, we dont know what role loturi can play for us at the gold cup because its too early. Obviously long term thats true but we have needed decisions in real time. Herdman made the decision that loturi isnt ready. Lots of people question herdman on that and all I am saying is that loturi didnt provide any reason to believe herdman has been incorrect. If loturi lit up the stage and dictated keeping possession, sprayed balls around, organized, or did anything else a DM needs to do well, then he could stake a claim that hes been unfairly benched. However,  he simply did not look good enough to suggest he deserves a bigger role this gold cup. 



 

[costarg]

3 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

Yeah, I know people have complained about Herdman’s use of the old guard in what was supposed to be Capapalooza, but I suspect he was forced into competing each game given the results.  

The issue is, using the old guard is what got us into this situation.  The only old guard that is actually playing to expectations is Hoilett.  Vitoria and Osorio are ghosts.  Might as well play the young hungry guys.  If we're being honest, we should lose on Sunday, expecting Vitoria and Osorio to wake up and suddenly win us a game is naïve.  Might as well roll the dice, take the new car out of the garage and see what we have.

[DeRo_Is_King]

4 minutes ago, costarg said:

The issue is, using the old guard is what got us into this situation.  The only old guard that is actually playing to expectations is Hoilett.  Vitoria and Osorio are ghosts.  Might as well play the young hungry guys.  If we're being honest, we should lose on Sunday, expecting Vitoria and Osorio to wake up and suddenly win us a game is naïve.  Might as well roll the dice, take the new car out of the garage and see what we have.

This is so tough, because I would agree if we had started our younger guys earlier on (like we did with Ahmed). The problem is it's now the U.S. in the quarterfinals. Loturi is too much of an unknown to start in that type of scenario.

With that said, I will admit I am putting a lot of stock in guys like Osorio, Vitoria and even McGraw to get things done. And I understand there is a real risk that they won't.  Unfortunately, that's the situation we're in right now. And I feel slightly more confident about Vitoria, as he's had time to rest. But yeah, at 36, he isn't going to play forever. 

I will say Hoilett has been fantastic for us. He's basically the only vet who's truly played well all tournament. Laryea has been decent as well overall. 

[Bigandy]

58 minutes ago, costarg said:

The issue is, using the old guard is what got us into this situation.  The only old guard that is actually playing to expectations is Hoilett.  Vitoria and Osorio are ghosts.  Might as well play the young hungry guys.  If we're being honest, we should lose on Sunday, expecting Vitoria and Osorio to wake up and suddenly win us a game is naïve.  Might as well roll the dice, take the new car out of the garage and see what we have.

I disagree. The only old guard who is clearly below his regular standard is Oso. Vitoria is on the bubble as is cav. All the other guys are fine. 

Laryea and hoillett have been fantastic.

Borjan made no mistakes, st clair has. Even so, st clair will start. 

At CB we have mcgraw and bombito who have played in all 3 games. neither have looked significant upgrades on vitoria. But we cant say that CB is relying on the old guard when mcgraw and bombito have played more games than vitoria. 

In CDM we have fraser whos 25? is he old guard? do we have a better cdm atm? nope and we have used bombito there as well. The "old guard" of fraser looked better than bombito or loturi. 

In CM Oso hasnt been great. Thats fair, but we used ahmed there too so its not like we are only relying on the old guard. Who else can play CM? 

Up top, cav has played as expected. He's not underperforming, hes just not that great. Brym - the main young guy has looked worse. Millar has been great. JRR is iffy and maybe deserved some extra time? 

Summary:
 Old guard
1. vitoria - played fewer games than the new guard
2. Hoilett - been terrific
3. Borjan - better than st clair and hes gone now
4. Oso - theres a case to be made against him. Who else plays CM though. 
5.  Cav - Hes performed to expectations.... he just isnt that fantastic of a striker. Bryms looked worse. Theres a case to be made about JRR. 

Youngish guys from the A squad
1. laryea - terrific
2. miller - average but better than ZMG and bombito 
3. Kennedy - odd one because hes not playing? 
4. Millar - terrific.

I think its exaggerating to blame the old guard because oso is having a stinker and vitoria got exposed without AJ besides and having the only slower player on the pitch besides him.