The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[shermanator]

I just want strong national teams while having professional soccer in my city. Is that too much to ask?

[InglewoodJack]

38 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Strange watching people actively cheering against the members of the Canadian NT’s. 

I’ll also add that it’s weird seeing normal people, most who I assume have worked for a very powerful boss who doesn’t exactly have their best interests in place and are like “but we need to listen to the suits, perhaps these workers are Simply Greedy”

[Ansem]

The MPs not having a basic understanding of what falls under FIFA, CONCACAF and the CSA was crazy - didn't they have a minimum of preparation?

No the CSA doesn't control FIFA calendars so equal amount of dollars for WCQ is NOT reasonable

No, it's actually FIFA that can get the Women kicked out of the World Cup if there's government interference - so there's nuance on why CSA had concerns about the hearing - it wasn't to just "shut you up"

Just -  a very basic understanding would have been nice.

There was a lot of lying by omission going on and the committee not understanding the basics led to moments of "shock and outrage" while they really should have been challenging them a bit like that 1 MP did when he forced Sinclair to admit that the CSB deal wasn't unique.

But hey, it's soccer because they sure know their hockey though...

I left this feeling that the players are validated to raise some concerns and lack of respect but at the same time, they made obvious that there's a lot they don't understand

Edited March 9, 2023 by Ansem

[narduch]

3 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I’ll also add that it’s weird seeing normal people, most who I assume have worked for a very powerful boss who doesn’t exactly have their best interests in place and are like “but we need to listen to the suits, perhaps these workers are Simply Greedy”

I was pretty happy to hear Sinclair drag Bontis

[SpursFlu]

I think all men professional soccer players should have equal pay in Canada. So Jonathan Osorio and Kadin Chung should get the same wages from their clubs. They do the same thing

I also think its unfair that some players get to play on the national team and subsequently get paid and others don't. Do people believe Alistair Johnston works harder than Kyle Bekker? Allayers should get equal time playing on our national team

 

 

 

We also have deserving young women not getting a shot with our national team because old Sinclair is playing politics to keep herself underservingly in the national team setup. She's taking money and opportunitifrom young players and we have to watch her stumble around the field chasing her glory. How much money does she need? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Alex]

I support these women getting theirs but what I don’t enjoy is the subtle shots at the men. Is this justified? 

[eramosat]

12 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I think all men professional soccer players should have equal pay in Canada. So Jonathan Osorio and Kadin Chung should get the same wages from their clubs. They do the same thing

I also think its unfair that some players get to play on the national team and subsequently get paid and others don't. Do people believe Alistair Johnston works harder than Kyle Bekker? Allayers should get equal time playing on our national team

 

 

 

We also have deserving young women not getting a shot with our national team because old Sinclair is playing politics to keep herself underservingly in the national team setup. She's taking money and opportunitifrom young players and we have to watch her stumble around the field chasing her glory. How much money does she need? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

don't contribute to the muck.  Sinclair is still in the World Top 100, and in the CANWNT top 32 for a long time. her opinion is as valid as any current player, either team.  yours needs monitoring.

[narduch]

Its funny that on social media the women are getting lots of plaudits for their testimony.

A different world here.

[eramosat]

11 minutes ago, Alex said:

I support these women getting theirs but what I don’t enjoy is the subtle shots at the men. Is this justified? 

I wouldn't say justified...but understandable, yes.  They fight for what they think is right, and no-one has a monopoly on the truth in this discussion.  Certainly not us third parties here on this forum.

[SpursFlu]

It's actually not weird that people don't fully get behind their national team players. In many countries the national team players are viewed as rich greedy and out of touch and disconnected from their homeland. Most people support their domestic players and cheer for them to get opportunities over the players who have themselves in higher profile wealthier positions 

Maybe we're just becoming a real football nation?

[Bigandy]

4 minutes ago, eramosat said:

I wouldn't say justified...but understandable, yes.  They fight for what they think is right, and no-one has a monopoly on the truth in this discussion.  Certainly not us third parties here on this forum.

What is understandable about taking shots at the mens team who have supported the CWNT and equal pay? The mens team are not the ones the CWNT are negotiating with. It's like having a fight with your parents and then slamming your sibling. They are redirecting their rage on anyone around them and I dont find it understandable to be in a hearing (where facts are more important than emotions) to talk specifically about the CSA and then slam the mens team. Imagine the outrage if the men were at a hearing about the CSB deal and then insulted women soccer players. They should stick to talking about the CBA and their fight against CSA, instead of slamming the mens team for being ranked 40th in the world. It's in their best interest if the men do well because they will get bigger prize money.

I support their right to fight for what they believe in, but taking cheap shots at the group who supports you and has the same opposition as you, is not fighting for what you believe in. That's a very different thing altogether. They should stick to the topic. 

[ag futbol]

I haven’t been able to watch today but from the snippets I saw on Twitter it seems like a mixed bag at best. Politicians making this about one issue rather than the broader dysfunction of the association. 

Although I have to admit some of the descriptions of Bontis’s actions were hilarious. Think he should stick to busting unions of unskilled labourers and stay away from anything that resembles a “talent” business.

[eramosat]

2 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

What is understandable about taking shots at the mens team who have supported the CWNT and equal pay? The mens team are not the ones the CWNT are negotiating with. It's like having a fight with your parents and then slamming your sibling. They are redirecting their rage on anyone around them and I dont find it understandable to be in a hearing (where facts are more important than emotions) to talk specifically about the CSA and then slam the mens team. Imagine the outrage if the men were at a hearing about the CSB deal and then insulted women soccer players. They should stick to talking about the CBA and their fight against CSA, instead of slamming the mens team for being ranked 40th in the world. It's in their best interest if the men do well because they will get bigger prize money.

I support their right to fight for what they believe in, but taking cheap shots at the group who supports you and has the same opposition as you, is not fighting for what you believe in. That's a very different thing altogether. They should stick to the topic. 

and if the women say the men did not actually support us in their dispute, would you believe that?

go read the first 30 pages of this thread, and make note of all the fights for equal pay the CANMNT called out for when they boycotted the games that initiated this thread.

 

[ag futbol]

Perhaps my impression here is unfounded but I think it’s a matter of semantics. And when you shake it out, it means both men’s and women’s teams claim to support pay “equality” but they disagree on what “equality” means. 

For the women, they think it’s dollar for dollar equality. I am assuming the men support equality but want to tie it to revenue generation (again, all my general impressions, might be 100% wrong)

Edited March 9, 2023 by ag futbol

[Meepmeep]

36 minutes ago, narduch said:

Its funny that on social media the women are getting lots of plaudits for their testimony.

A different world here.

This is where you will find the people who are so desperate for pro soccer in their “city” and for what they call a national soccer broadcaster that any questioning of how we got here is twisted into some sort of “why do you hate Canada Soccer” accusation.  Or why do you like MLS it’s American! Or TSN sucks!!  They lose their minds. 

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, ag futbol said:

Perhaps my impression here is unfounded but I think it’s a matter of semantics. And when you shake it out, it means both men’s and women’s teams claim to support pay “equality” but they disagree on what “equality” means. 

For the women, they think it’s dollar for dollar equality. I am assuming the men support equality but want to tie it to revenue generation (again, all my general impressions, might be 100% wrong)

I pointed this out last week sometime. The men seem to want equality of opportunity. The women want equity, which is equality of outcome. @dyslexic nam followed that up with a nice meme with people of various heights standing on boxes trying to watch a baseball game over the fence, which based on this description may seem like an odd thing to post in relation to a equality problem, especially considering it's the wrong sport, but it's a good meme and post.

[RS]

28 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

What is understandable about taking shots at the mens team who have supported the CWNT and equal pay? The mens team are not the ones the CWNT are negotiating with. It's like having a fight with your parents and then slamming your sibling. They are redirecting their rage on anyone around them and I dont find it understandable to be in a hearing (where facts are more important than emotions) to talk specifically about the CSA and then slam the mens team. Imagine the outrage if the men were at a hearing about the CSB deal and then insulted women soccer players. They should stick to talking about the CBA and their fight against CSA, instead of slamming the mens team for being ranked 40th in the world. It's in their best interest if the men do well because they will get bigger prize money.

I support their right to fight for what they believe in, but taking cheap shots at the group who supports you and has the same opposition as you, is not fighting for what you believe in. That's a very different thing altogether. They should stick to the topic. 

Beckie made a point of noting that the men's team is on the same side as they are.

The only ones taking shots at the men's team were some silly MPs.

[CanadaFan123]

OneSoccer is a huge driver of football in this country. Arguably they’re one of the most important factors in this Canadian football revolution. One could see why the women wouldn’t care for it though.  They were already household names and it took them out of the public a bit. So while it’s driven the men’s game to new heights by giving our teams and players unprecedented coverage it’s an interesting example of a conflict of interest.

The whole situation smells of a conflict of interest that will fester in perpetuity. Men’s and women’s football should be completely separate in terms of everything. At a certain point there’s no sense in things being connected. Keep what you earn and adjust accordingly. The market doesn’t lie. 

[narduch]

6 minutes ago, Meepmeep said:

This is where you will find the people who are so desperate for pro soccer in their “city” and for what they call a national soccer broadcaster that any questioning of how we got here is twisted into some sort of “why do you hate Canada Soccer” accusation.  Or why do you like MLS it’s American! Or TSN sucks!!  They lose their minds. 

TSN does suck though.

And MLS doesn't give a shit about Canada.

[Big_M]

A look at possible distribution and spending of World Cup Prize Money (in USD)

2022 Men's World Cup

Receiving

$9M Prize Money

Spending

$0.85M (approx.) to Men for qualifying to the World Cup ($1.15M CAD proposed by CSA)

$3.6M (approx.): $1.8M to Women/X and $1.8M to Men. This is the amount going to the Prize Pool (the proposed 40% by CSA)

$3M (taking a conservative number knowing the high costs): Friends and familly package for Men's team

Total: $7.45M

 

9M - 7.45M = 1.55M Remaining

 

2023 Women's World Cup

Receiving

$2.5M Prize Money (we obviously dont know the amount yet but lets take the middle amount of $1-4M estimated prize funds said by CSA)

Spending

$0.85M (approx.) to Women/X for qualifying to the World Cup ($1.15M CAD proposed by CSA)

$1.75M (approx.): $0.875M to Women/X and $0.875M to Men. This is the amount going to the Prize Pool. Taking 70% of prize money as CSA has proposed up to 75% depending on placement (so it could be a little more or less)

$2M: Friends and familly package for Women's/X team. It looks to be a 23 player roster for this World Cup and ticket prices might be lower so will take a lower number than the $3M for the men

Total: $4.6M

 

2.5M - 4.6M = 2.1M Lost

 

 

Total over both World Cups

1.55M-2.1M = 0.55M Lost

 

One of many conclusions: if this was to be agreed and even by moving the numbers up or down a little, it looks like the CSA would be around breaking point concerning Prize Money for World Cups. Though for some a loss of 0.5 to 1M+ would be called a heavy loss. Could also be a slight gain if the numbers really go our way. One thing is for sure: there isnt much World Cup Prize Money money that would be spent elsewhere. Would be nice to hear other conclusions on this

[zeelaw]

53 minutes ago, narduch said:

Its funny that on social media the women are getting lots of plaudits for their testimony.

A different world here.

It's astonishingly different. 

[Ruud]

Canada soccer releasing its offer on elements of the CBA publicly today is interesting.  It is likely that both parties had heretofore agreed to negotiate privately but that by agreeing to a parliamentary hearing CS also felt it could release its position in the public. Really hard to look at those figures and see how the men and women would agree to anything close to these %s being shared.  They must both be more like 80% and up. 
 

also nothing released in friends and family 

[Ruud]

Also the women today might have been asked about their own personal commercial sponsorships as well as those facilitated through their affiliation with Canada soccer 

[Unnamed Trialist]

Player bonus breakdown.

Coming on late, will watch the hearing later and then finish tomorrow, but: wanted to address the financials on the basis of the CSA release.

1-Both teams receive a bonus of 1.15 million for qualifying for respective WCs. This would be distributed by some formula that would likely include those participating in the qualifying cycle but not going to the WC. As the Men's qualifying cycle was long and more players participated, plus the roster for Qatar was bigger than for the 2023 (26 to 23, though some are arguing that still), the quantity would be smaller per player for the men than for the women. 

2-As the men played a longer cycle to qualify, plus friendlies, their total per game bonuses--3500$ base, up to 5500 when incentivies come into play--will end up higher for this last cycle. However, as pointed out, over the years the women have played more matches than the men, so that we even have younger players with significantly more caps than Atiba.

Related, these appearance fees would clearly be much more significant for players on lower club salaries, or none at all, remembering we've had NCAA athletes playing key roles for us (Grosso).

3-The release offers a hypothetical per team bonus calculation. That would include 40% of Qatar participation money, 3.6 million, plus 75 of the WWC bonuses, which would run from 1-4 million they say, depending on results. The release takes the high end (essentially imagining us winning and thus the women contributing more than the men to the pot), and postulates 7.6 million dollars divided by 2, so 3.8 million per NT. 

For a 26 person roster that would divide up at 146,153.84/player, for a 23 person roster it comes to 165,217.39/player. An aside: that is a decent per person men's WC bonus if we compare with other teams at Qatar.

4-If we take the low end indicated of the women's bonus, 1 million for the WC, we'd add it to the 3.6, that gives us 4.6 million dollars. Divide in 2 we get 2.3 million per team

For a 26 person roster that would divide up at 88,461,54/player, for a 23 person roster it comes to 100k/player.

5-But the calculation does not stop there, as you'd have to add the qualifying bonus of 1.15 million to the respective pots. Higher end, 3.8/NT + 1.15 = 4.95 million per team. Divide by 26, 190,384.62 dollars men, by 23 for the women, 215,217.39. And if you were to calculate with the lower end of the women's bonus 2.3/NT +1.15 = 3.45 million. Divided by 26, equals 132,692.30/player, divided by 23 only, 150k/each.

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[shorty]

14 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

For a 26 person roster that would divide up at 176,923.08/player, for a 23 person roster it comes to 200k/player.

These are 2x larger than they should be. You divided 4.6m by 26 and 23, not 2.3m. Doesn’t change the thrust of your post or your analysis. Just in case someone was wondering why those numbers were bigger.