The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[zeelaw]

BLAH

Edited March 10, 2023 by zeelaw
DLT

[CanSoccfan11]

11 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I assume you mean opening the CSB books, because I don't know that the CSA books have much more to tell us. If so, and I mean this as an honest question because I don't have a clue myself, but is this a realistic expectation to ask a private enterprise to open their books to the public on the agreements made with many other very large corporations? Does this ever happen, and is it likely to hamstring our earning power for the foreseeable future if we piss off the corporations investing in the game?

I don't see how the government can enforce that.  Also I don't particularly see why that would be relevant anyhow, they signed a contract with the CSA and as long as they honor the terms of it I can't see how anything can be done about it barring the CSB agreeing to reopen discussions and maybe modify it as has been reported.

[SpursFlu]

Just more fodder for the culture wars and for politicians to score cheap points with their sheep

As a soccer fan I'm just focused on CPL and hope this goes away after people who don't pay attention realize it's just nonsense. That way the CSA with CSB can put the train back on the tracks as we move back the right direction. And oh yah.. fck MLSE and fck TSN

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Check out the profit/loss numbers quoted for those years. Expenses must have also dropped drastically.

expenses were:
2018:21m
2019:24m
2020: 14m
2021: 28m 

expenses dropped  in 2020 but increased in 2021. The mens costs for 2020 was 3m and in 2021 its 11m. This is from all the travel for the WCQ's as well as having to play home games in the USA. These numbers 100% indicate that covid had an impact on both the revenues and costs of our national teams. 

https://www.canadasoccer.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/The-Canadian-Soccer-Association-Incorporated-2021.pdf

Edited March 10, 2023 by Bigandy

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

14 minutes ago, CanSoccfan11 said:

I don't see how the government can enforce that.  Also I don't particularly see why that would be relevant anyhow, they signed a contract with the CSA and as long as they honor the terms of it I can't see how anything can be done about it barring the CSB agreeing to reopen discussions and maybe modify it as has been reported.

There was somebody a few pages back arguing the CSB deal was illegal in terms of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms because men and women were not being treated equally. Will be interesting to see if that holds any water.

[GasPed]

5 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

If it was only going to be a men's professional league it should only have been the CMNT sponsorships that were bundled with CanPL ones, but the problem with that and contrary to what many on here appear to believe is that it was the CWNT that corporate sponsors were more interested in until very recently.

In retrospect, that's exactly what the CSA should've done - separated the marketing rights for the men and the women, sold the former to the CSB and the latter to well, someone.  Maybe they should've even separated themselves into the CMSA and CWSA, with separate revenue and expense accounting.  Not sure that would've solved the problems, but at least the complaints would look different...

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

...These numbers 100% indicate that covid had an impact on both the revenues and costs of our national teams...

But not on the overall finances if as stated in an earlier post the CSA turned a profit in both 2020 and 2021.

[CanSoccfan11]

1 minute ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

There was somebody a few pages back arguing the CSB deal was illegal in terms of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms because men and women were not being treated equally. Will be interesting to see if that holds any water.

In what way?  They paid to use the rights and then cut a cheque to the CSA.  If the CSA isn't evenly distributing the funds then that is on them and not CSB.  

 

 

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

5 minutes ago, CanSoccfan11 said:

In what way?  They paid to use the rights and then cut a cheque to the CSA.  If the CSA isn't evenly distributing the funds then that is on them and not CSB. 

Remember I wan't the one who argued this. It seemed to revolve around the CSA being a body that represents Canada on a national basis and its officeholders being criminally liable if the Charter of Rights and Freedoms were not applied properly in that context. Seemed like a bit of a stretch to me but at the same time not completely implausible.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ansem]

Not Amy Walsh best podcast, fucking frustrating to listen too. No awareness of the soccer ecosystem. She thinks the league makes more money via CSB than it cost them to run the clubs.

The hell????

It gets so much worse the more you listen to her... do all the women on the NT thinks like her? Wow fuck me

 

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Ansem

[Redpunkfiddle]

45 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

Just more fodder for the culture wars and for politicians to score cheap points with their sheep

As a soccer fan I'm just focused on CPL and hope this goes away after people who don't pay attention realize it's just nonsense. That way the CSA with CSB can put the train back on the tracks as we move back the right direction. And oh yah.. fck MLSE and fck TSN

You don’t seem just focused on one thing but, hey. 

[reggietfc]

yes the csa is shit.but im getting kinda of sick of these soccer karens

[SpursFlu]

As someone who has season tickets to the Whitecaps, season tickets to Vancouver fc, have been to every single Canadian national team game played in Vancouver in recent memory. Has a closet full of Canadian soccer apparel. Actively plays mens soccer, has 2 daughters in minor soccer and volunteers his time. I find it pretty hilarious to be accused of not being "focused" on Canadian soccer. I'll let my wife know it could be worse, she'll have a good laugh

 

Maybe I'm not focused on virtue signaling and being a tool for multi national mega corporations but im pretty sure I'm focused on Canadian soccer

Edited March 10, 2023 by SpursFlu

[RS]

2 hours ago, CanSoccfan11 said:

It was 3 to 4x the sponsorship revenue not 3 to 4 times total revenue.   That equates to the $3 million they get from the CSB. 

That’s a good point and it seems to be the source of our misunderstanding.

Ive been using “revenue” as shorthand for “sponsorship revenue,” in this discussion,  which obviously doesn’t jive with overall revenue.

Its sponsorship that is the crux of the disagreement between he players and CSA,  but I’m sure any other streams are also on the table at this point.

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

But not on the overall finances if as stated in an earlier post the CSA turned a profit in both 2020 and 2021.

Are you implying that a profit means that CSA is not impacted much by covid? The fact that they posted a profits doesnt mean they werent impacted. In 2020 they basically broke even (keep in mind they were negative 2m for the previous 2 years). They made lots of cuts and hardly fund any youth teams. In 2021 they had a 5m profit and got double the fifa grants they had in 2020 (2m to 4m). This is a one time payment to help out CSA due to covid. They also got 14m more in commercial fees than they did previously. Take away this unheard of 16million in revenue, and all of the sudden they are in the hole 11million. 

Therefore, operations were incredibly impacted and CSA got a bail out. If you dont believe that operations were impacted, look at how our youth camps are doing, the fact that CSA cut their work week down to 4 days, they gave about 4.4million in covid relief to provincial soccer associations etc. 

Edit - The annual report states that the majority of the 16 million in commercial fees are a result of the success of our national team and the easing of covid restrictions. This means that we wouldnt have had nearly the same revenues if covid restrictions werent lifted.... we would have easily had a loss in 2021 if covid restrictions were not lifted. 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Bigandy

[RS]

29 minutes ago, Redpunkfiddle said:

You don’t seem just focused on one thing but, hey. 

I have that guy on ignore and only have to read his drivel when someone quotes him. 

Every time that happens, I’m reassured that I made the correct choice.

[CanSoccfan11]

23 minutes ago, RS said:

That’s a good point and it seems to be the source of our misunderstanding.

Ive been using “revenue” as shorthand for “sponsorship revenue,” in this discussion,  which obviously doesn’t jive with overall revenue.

Its sponsorship that is the crux of the disagreement between he players and CSA,  but I’m sure any other streams are also on the table at this point.

Yeah there seems to be a disagreement on that front with regards to using the players images in marketing.   I'm not a lawyer so I have no idea where the line is on that.

[An Observer]

6 hours ago, Ansem said:

While the very LOUD minority (including us) argue on details and the evils of CSB/CPL - the silent majority which is overwhelmingly bigger than us football crazies will share the views of this article - oh and CSB isn't on the radar like the noise from people online wants us to believe

The silent majority have bigger fish to fry like unemployment, living wage, housing, inflation, shitty jobs. Yes, fairness is something we should strive for but asking people to care about having a personal chef, single room occupancy, more money so they don't train with training staff - bad optics / lack of awareness. I look at the CSA proposal and I can't help to think that the players had better take it and move on to more productive things like CSA governance and transparency going forward.

Otherwise, while our micro-ecosystem gets riled up over details - the majority that we need to win over to grow this sport will get bored real fast and like the article says, go back to hockey.

I completely agree with this take.  I have been bored with this for weeks now.  I have never liked the CSA but I have lost a lot of respect for the players (both men and women) through this. It has a bit of an air of the Prince Andrew media fiasco or Harry and Meg show.  They just come across as privileged twats who cherry pick information for their own benefit and ignore the overall situation. Really.  Stick to what you know. Playing soccer.  I have respect for that but I am losing interest in you when you spend your time whining about your personal financial issues in public.  Take the deal and move on.  This was a time to grow the game but it seems the whining will shrink their pie anyway by turning casual fans off and their greed has shrunk it for everyone that comes after them by raiding the funds for development to fill their personal coffers now.  I now fear for the men’s game that this generation maybe a blip rather than the start of something even greater later as their will be no money to nurture the next.

[eramosat]

16 hours ago, kacbru said:

Yes, you are wrong.  It is in Australia and New Zealand!😀

well, frig, I'm not so happy to be reminded of that mistake.  but fair on

[SpursFlu]

Don't we have Canadian women who play for Man City and other huge European clubs? Why they so focused on being all over the CSA on this topic? Why not give their clubs a hard time over equal pay? You know, the people who are their actual employers

Edited March 11, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Shway]

35 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

Don't we have Canadian women who play for Man City and other huge European clubs? Why they so focused on being all over the CSA on this topic? Why not give their clubs a hard time over equal pay? You know, the people who are their actual employers

Shut up already. Don't make sense. 
It's not allowed.

[Ruud]

6 hours ago, Ansem said:

Not Amy Walsh best podcast, fucking frustrating to listen too. No awareness of the soccer ecosystem. She thinks the league makes more money via CSB than it cost them to run the clubs.

The hell????

It gets so much worse the more you listen to her... do all the women on the NT thinks like her? Wow fuck me

 

 

Her quote was “there are much bigger things than money” for the women or something to that effect. No clue what she was referring to because she later agreed the pay deal was decent. Tough listening but happy that they guys pushed back a bit.  

[Bison44]

The best part of the the Footy prime podcast was Forrest giving his min rant.  Worth the price of admission right there, didnt think I could like him any more, but now I do.  

 

[SF]

2 hours ago, An Observer said:

I completely agree with this take.  I have been bored with this for weeks now.  I have never liked the CSA but I have lost a lot of respect for the players (both men and women) through this. It has a bit of an air of the Prince Andrew media fiasco or Harry and Meg show.  They just come across as privileged twats who cherry pick information for their own benefit and ignore the overall situation. Really.  Stick to what you know. Playing soccer.  I have respect for that but I am losing interest in you when you spend your time whining about your personal financial issues in public.  Take the deal and move on.  This was a time to grow the game but it seems the whining will shrink their pie anyway by turning casual fans off and their greed has shrunk it for everyone that comes after them by raiding the funds for development to fill their personal coffers now.  I now fear for the men’s game that this generation maybe a blip rather than the start of something even greater later as their will be no money to nurture the next.

I think I agree with you guys, but I can't escape the idea that this is a song that has been played a million times and the CSA was ignorant to the whole thing.

Happens everywhere and all the time - NBA, NHL, NFL, etc... the league takes off and the players ask for more - yes, more than "normal" people would think adequate. But, predictable in the extreme.

I come from the world of finance and I can tell you this is very standard and bosses that can't plan for it are simply poor managers.

So, agree that the players are blind to many issues, but that does not excuse the woeful leadership from the CSA.

[Gian-Luca]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

The best part of the the Footy prime podcast was Forrest giving his min rant.  Worth the price of admission right there, didnt think I could like him any more, but now I do.  

 

Craig Forrest ripping apart Rick Westhead and TSN was fun, but Jim Brennan pointing out the massive flaws in Amy Walsh’s “arguments” was also good.