WCQ: Haiti vs Canada - In-Match Thread

[Addona]

4 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

This is just it. We won a WCQ away (against a respectable opponent) for the first time in 20+ years and neither wonder kid was at their best. They’ll learn.

But speaking of a first away game in CONCACAF ... Eustaquio wow. Hard to believe this was just his 5th cap what a player. 

Well, we beat Cuba away, and I think they were respectable… not that I a disagree with your general sentiment.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Addona

[Kadenge]

1 hour ago, Cheeta said:

Have been thinking but was the surface any worse than anything in the past?  Probably better.  

To be sure their team along with every other team in the world is built to play in their world.  If that's the West Indies or Northern Europe or equatorial Africa it is what it is out of necessity.  

What field(s) during our 2014 & 2018 WCQ would you say were worse? Honduras, Panama & ES were all superior. Minnows don't count 😊

[MM3/MM2/MM]

1 hour ago, Cheeta said:

Have been thinking but was the surface any worse than anything in the past?  Probably better.  

To be sure their team along with every other team in the world is built to play in their world.  If that's the West Indies or Northern Europe or equatorial Africa it is what it is out of necessity.  

I think the difference is that we didn't get to practice on the field, we arrived late (for good reasons), this gave Haiti an extra benefit.

[Watchmen]

Most of the fields in the Caribbean aren't great.  Even when they're fixed/replaced, they deteriorate quickly. You'd essentially be condemning these countries to never playing home games, and that's never going to happen.  Not with the block of votes they carry (both in CONCACAF and FIFA).

Edited June 13, 2021 by Watchmen

[Footscray]

12 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Most of the fields in the Caribbean aren't great.  Even when they're fixed/replaced, they deteriorate quickly. You'd essentially be condemning these countries to never playing home games, and that's never going to happen.  Not with the block of votes they carry (both in CONCACAF and FIFA).

I get that in the earlier rounds when the Caribbean and CA qualifiers are on the pitches will be hit or miss, but I think CONCACAF should be sending money for the final round tied to groundskeeping and/or penalizing/moving games where it's not up to snuff in the later rounds when champions league level players are coming in and risking their livelihood playing on a goat track and the field is dangerous or unplayable.

Also without a doubt the reffing system needs to go... refs should be selected based on league coefficients so we're using only professional MLS and Liga officials in the later rounds.  Everybody gets a turn is a nice idea but we all know how it plays out in practice.  

[Watchmen]

4 minutes ago, Footscray said:

I get that in the earlier rounds when the Caribbean and CA qualifiers are on the pitches will be hit or miss, but I think CONCACAF should be sending money for the final round tied to groundskeeping and/or penalizing/moving games where it's not up to snuff in the later rounds when champions league level players are coming in and risking their livelihood playing on a goat track and the field is dangerous or unplayable.

Also without a doubt the reffing system needs to go... refs should be selected based on league coefficients so we're using only professional MLS and Liga officials in the later rounds.  Everybody gets a turn is a nice idea but we all know how it plays out in practice.  

CONCACAF already invests money in fields for the poorer nations.  There's only so much they can do.  They aren't replacing the field turf before every game for potentially a one-off event and there's only so much you can do with the grass on some of these fields.

Basing the officials on the league coefficient is a terrible idea.  You'd be penalizing potentially good officials from smaller nations just because their league is garbage.  But also, the quality of "professional" refs in MLS is also garbage.  Just try to figure out how the best officials are and select them.

[Footscray]

7 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

CONCACAF already invests money in fields for the poorer nations.  There's only so much they can do.  They aren't replacing the field turf before every game for potentially a one-off event and there's only so much you can do with the grass on some of these fields.

Basing the officials on the league coefficient is a terrible idea.  You'd be penalizing potentially good officials from smaller nations just because their league is garbage.  But also, the quality of "professional" refs in MLS is also garbage.  Just try to figure out how the best officials are and select them.

It's not perfect, but for me, the odds of a small amateur or semi pro league in the carribean of CA having the best officials are astronomical.  The better leagues have better quality control processes for their refs, offer more training, and have a huge selection pool from lower leagues they can pick from when they dismiss someone.  Also, when it comes to potential corruption, the whole fraud triangle idea comes into play.  Opportunity, motivation, justification.  It's not a condemnation of character or a certainty it will occur, but it's a fact that motivation will be higher for folks who make a pittance or nothing at all.  I think continuing to rotate refs in from countries like Grenada to appease their FA (sorry Grenada, just a random pick) is dangerous and 100% the reason you see so many ridiculous tackles going unpunished or reds for nothing.  

There's a reason getting concacafed is a saying, the current system is not working at all.  I always breathe a sigh of relief when I see we are getting an MLS or Liga ref in a big game.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Footscray

[Watchmen]

6 minutes ago, Footscray said:

It's not perfect, but for me, the odds of a small amateur or semi pro league in the carribean of CA having the best officials are astronomical.  The better leagues have better quality control processes for their refs, offer more training, and have a huge selection pool from lower leagues they can pick from when they dismiss someone.  Also, when it comes to potential corruption, the whole fraud triangle idea comes into play.  Opportunity, motivation, justification.  It's not a condemnation of character or a certainty it will occur, but it's a fact that motivation will be higher for folks who make a pittance or nothing at all.  I think continuing to rotate refs in from countries like Grenada to appease their FA (sorry Grenada, just a random pick) is dangerous and 100% the reason you see so many ridiculous tackles going unpunished or reds for nothing.  

There's a reason getting concacafed is a saying, the current system is not working at all.  I always breathe a sigh of relief when I see we are getting an MLS or Liga ref in a big game.

Yes, they're astronomical.  I would not suggest that we would regularly be seeing selections from smaller countries.  I simply said we should be taking the best available.  I would not put a coefficient limit on it.

Canada got CONCACAFed badly against the US in 2007 by a Mexican ref.  In 2006 World Cup qualifying, Canada got CONCACAFed against Honduras, first by a Mexican ref and then by a US ref.  The region just produces bad officials.

[Metro]

3 hours ago, Addona said:

Well, we beat Cuba away, and I think they were respectable… not that I a disagree with your general sentiment.

There's also that epic away win in Guatemala but whose quibbling? 😄

[Metro]

2 hours ago, MM3/MM2/MM said:

I think the difference is that we didn't get to practice on the field, we arrived late (for good reasons), this gave Haiti an extra benefit.

I think that's it, and with many "inferior" fields, players can still use their speed to catch up to passes, first touches that were led astray due to the conditions.  You couldn't do that here.

[Footscray]

51 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Yes, they're astronomical.  I would not suggest that we would regularly be seeing selections from smaller countries.  I simply said we should be taking the best available.  I would not put a coefficient limit on it.

Canada got CONCACAFed badly against the US in 2007 by a Mexican ref.  In 2006 World Cup qualifying, Canada got CONCACAFed against Honduras, first by a Mexican ref and then by a US ref.  The region just produces bad officials.

Yeah bad officials out there even in the top leagues for sure.  You even see it in the big four NA leagues and EPL where there are missed calls etc.  It's a tough gig, don't think I could do it myself.  Hopefully somebody out there is working hard on the roboref 3000-TM.  Though some of the theatre of sport gonna dry up when it comes in and I realize that automating delivery driving, cleaning etc may be more beneficial from a societal perspective, but for god's sake somebody think of the heartbreak us poor sports fans suffer when we get shafted by a ref 🤣

[lamptern]

6 hours ago, Footscray said:

Seems to me like the pitch was mainly detrimental for dribbling and passing.  Really forces an aerial type game.  And the team who doesn't know the surface is often just trying to guess what the bounce will be.

Canada did really well to get that result in conditions like that and I feel confident they are gonna torch haiti on a proper field.

Two thoughts:

- totally agree on fifa and concacaf being a joke and getting more involved on field standards, and also safety.

- man there are a ton of haiti trolls on the csa insta.  Then u go to haitis own insta and there are no followers or comments.  Hard to understand their fanbase.

That's could be part of their culture I  guess. Culture if an island nation.

[The Real Marc]

23 hours ago, PiedPilko said:

On one hand, Haiti definitely didn't deserve a draw. We had the 3 best chances of the game. On the other hand though, I don't think the conditions will be much better in Honduras or El Salvador, and we're not gonna get away with being as sloppy as we were.

And those venues will have fans

[Yohan]

There's a generation of Voyageurs that shudder at the name of Benito Archundia.

VAR has reduced getting CONCACAF'd. Any game where Canada isn't getting screwed big time, I'm content with. 

I learned not to ask for too much from the football gods

[SthMelbRed]

13 minutes ago, Yohan said:

There's a generation of Voyageurs that shudder at the name of Benito Archundia.

VAR has reduced getting CONCACAF'd. Any game where Canada isn't getting screwed big time, I'm content with. 

I learned not to ask for too much from the football gods

Refereeing is hard. I know this from refereeing at State League level here in Australia. However, in my experience, the difference between a good amateur ref and most professional refs is mostly fitness and willingness to commit the time early in their careers to progress through the ranks. If you put your favourite VMSL or L1O ref in all the same positions to make one-off calls as Michael Oliver, you probably don't get much, if any, worse decisions. However, Michael Oliver has unreal fitness that allows him to almost always get into the right positions over 90 minutes of Premier League football. He also started refereeing at 16, dedicated himself to reaching the very top of the field, and had all the right connections as the son of a professional referee in the Football League. Contrast that with the L1O guy, who probably took up refereeing in his late-20s or early-30s when he realised he couldn't keep playing forever and has a full-time day job.

And all that being said, a crew of elite, professional referees, armed with VAR, still managed to butcher their interpretation of the offside law enough to allow Lukaku's first goal for Belgium against Russia in the Euro the other day.

Edited June 14, 2021 by SthMelbRed
last point

[sstackho]

  

2 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

And all that being said, a crew of elite, professional referees, armed with VAR, still managed to butcher their interpretation of the offside law enough to allow Lukaku's first goal for Belgium against Russia in the Euro the other day.

Serious question - what was wrong with the awarding of Lukaku's first goal? 

The rule states "A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent."

IMHO, the Russian defender deliberately played the ball - badly.  So as per the rules, the goal should stand.

That being said - I strongly dislike that rule.  It sucks that a defender can negate an offside by attempting to defend a play. 

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by sstackho

[SthMelbRed]

2 minutes ago, sstackho said:

  

Serious question - what was wrong with the awarding of Lukaku's first goal? 

The rule states "A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent."

IMHO, the Russian defender deliberately played the ball - badly.  So as per the rules, the goal should stand.

That being said - I strongly dislike that rule.  It sucks that a defender can negate an offside by attempting to defend a play. 

 

The Russian defender tried to block the pass. That's considered a deliberate save, and doesn't negate offside. Had he attempted to clear the ball, either with his foot, head, or chest, but misplayed it to the offside attacker, that WOULD negate offside. The officials in this instance fucked up the call, badly, in my opinion.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

2 hours ago, Yohan said:

There's a generation of Voyageurs that shudder at the name of Benito Archundia.

VAR has reduced getting CONCACAF'd. Any game where Canada isn't getting screwed big time, I'm content with. 

I learned not to ask for too much from the football gods

On the 2007 Gold Cup semi, it was the linesman that raised his flag and while being lectured by Stalteri he clearly had a look on his face of "I just f$$$ed up".  I don't put that on Archundia. 

The call that never got talked about enough was the red card challenge Bocanegra got away with on JDG in the first half.  Should've been 11 v 10 for the last 60 minutes.

[SthMelbRed]

38 minutes ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

On the 2007 Gold Cup semi, it was the linesman that raised his flag and while being lectured by Stalteri he clearly had a look on his face of "I just f$$$ed up".  I don't put that on Archundia. 

The call that never got talked about enough was the red card challenge Bocanegra got away with on JDG in the first half.  Should've been 11 v 10 for the last 60 minutes.

The AR has to raise his flag when he sees the ball run through to a player in an offside position unless he knows for certain that there's a negating factor ruling out an offside call. It's up to the centre ref to be in position closer to the ball to determine that the final ball was played through by the defender and overrule his assistant. That was 100% on Archundia.

Had this same thing happened today, the crew would have comms and the AR would have said to the ref that he thinks Hutch is offside, but the ref would immediately say no, because the ball was played through by the American defender. That's even before VAR came into play.

[sstackho]

54 minutes ago, SthMelbRed said:

The Russian defender tried to block the pass. That's considered a deliberate save, and doesn't negate offside. Had he attempted to clear the ball, either with his foot, head, or chest, but misplayed it to the offside attacker, that WOULD negate offside. The officials in this instance fucked up the call, badly, in my opinion.

The laws state a deliberate save to be:

A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area).

The ball was not going into or "very close" to the goal, IMHO.

Video here: https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro-2020/video/026a-1281594d589d-932cbf47f3f4-1000--watch-lukaku-s-belgium-double/

Anyway, I like hearing a ref's opinion on this.  Again, I hate the rule, but I feel like they applied it correctly. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

The Russian defender tried to block the pass. That's considered a deliberate save, and doesn't negate offside. Had he attempted to clear the ball, either with his foot, head, or chest, but misplayed it to the offside attacker, that WOULD negate offside. The officials in this instance fucked up the call, badly, in my opinion.

I thought "save" meant a ball going on goal that the defender blocks, a ball that would be a goal if it did not touch the defender. 

But I defer to your understanding of the rule if I have it wrong.

[Kent]

On 6/12/2021 at 7:05 PM, Reign said:

I’m really not liking how much Herdman plays down to opponents.

Apologies if this has already been addressed, I'm not caught up on the thread, but the team under Herdman doesn't exactly have a history of playing down to opponents.

Canada vs US Virgin Islands: 8-0
Canada vs Dominica: 5-0
Canada vs French Guiana: 4-1
Canada vs Martinique: 4-0
Canada vs Cuba: 7-0
Canada vs Cuba: 6-0
Canada vs Barbados: 4-1
Canada vs Barbados: 4-1
Canada vs Bermuda: 5-1
Canada vs Cayman Islands: 11-0
Canada vs Aruba: 7-0
Canada vs Suriname: 4-0

That's 12 out of his 21 games have been wins by between 3 goals and 11 goals. Not exactly shy of the gas pedal. There was a 1-0 game against Cuba, in Cuba and we had a red card right around half-time of that game. The only other game that could be interpreted as playing down to the competition is a 1-0 win against St. Kitts, again it was away. Plus, Haiti and St. Kitts aren't bad teams, they are both in the 2nd round.

[Kent]

On 6/12/2021 at 7:37 PM, gator said:

One of the player's father told me that shortly after that match, he said it was kept as quiet as possible!

I don't understand why it was kept as quiet as possible. While I was watching that game I eventually started assuming they got food poisoning. It was the only explanation. I was surprised at the lack of news around that. Is it better for the Canadian soccer fans to just think our players crumbled under pressure, rather than think that they made an excuse of having half the players sick on the day of the game?

[gator]

5 minutes ago, Kent said:

I don't understand why it was kept as quiet as possible. While I was watching that game I eventually started assuming they got food poisoning. It was the only explanation. I was surprised at the lack of news around that. Is it better for the Canadian soccer fans to just think our players crumbled under pressure, rather than think that they made an excuse of having half the players sick on the day of the game?

He said the result was embarrassing enough and they didn't want to make it look like they were justifying it by making up excuses, I agree that maybe it should have come out sooner but he was probably right!

[BearcatSA]

21 minutes ago, Kent said:

Plus, Haiti and St. Kitts aren't bad teams, they are both in the 2nd round.

They aren't that good, either. 

We won away with a clean sheet.  There should be no on field excuses for blowing this. 

I expect us to be heading to the Ocho.  I won't predict how we end up doing it on Tuesday night but good teams find the way to do the job needed.