Mo Farsi

[InglewoodJack]

25 minutes ago, Borjans Sweatpants said:

I see both sides of this argument.

Ya, would suck to have him use our systems and development resources to get where he is, but then we encourage Jebbison to stay within the UK system as long as possible and to switch to us later because our youth system is a joke 😆

Different levels of players but you see what I'm getting at. Can't be ok with it one side and not understand that it can happen to you. Plus, the more players we're producing the better. Some will leave, but some will stick, and as we improve over time, more will want to stick.

I don't think anyone is happy with Jebbison sticking with England's youths, it's more just that there's an extremely small chance that he ever plays for their senior team while there's a much better chance that players who play for Croatia, Serbia, Algeria, Morocco, etc., have a much better chance of capping for them. That said, the underlying context here is that we're only going to get players who aren't good enough for other teams which sucks, but hey, if your #3 striker is England's 6th best striker or whatever Jebbison maxes out as, that's not bad.

The bolded is what it comes down to and I hope that's true- I would love to talk to someone in Canada soccer who has an idea of what the 10 year outlook on that is. We just made a world cup, we're about to host the next, we've increased our ranking by like 30 net points, our best player is one of the best young stars in the world, we've taken down big teams in our conference, what more is it gonna take? I hope that some of these names we've lost over the last year would be the type who would commit to us in 5 years after we have I guess more of a "complete generation" of this iteration of Canadian soccer vs. a flash in the pan, but I wonder if that's realistic.

[costarg]

5 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

His choice and all that but just funny hearing someone making what is probably like a respectable middle class salary talking about “my entourage”.

Entourage = my dad

[costarg]

5 hours ago, jordan said:

 

I can probably do the footwork myself, but before i do, does anyone know the RWB depth chart on the Algerian team?  Perhaps seeing AJ, RL, ZBG, etc..... on there kinda helped with this decision?  Perhaps Algeria is a little more needy and a little less spoiled in RWBs? 

I could understand if its that, otherwise it's a shitty move, even beyond the soccer sense.  Am I the only one that feels like "Canada gave you and your family lots kid, show some f'in appreciation".

 

[jordan]

5 minutes ago, costarg said:

I can probably do the footwork myself, but before i do, does anyone know the RWB depth chart on the Algerian team?  Perhaps seeing AJ, RL, ZBG, etc..... on there kinda helped with this decision?  Perhaps Algeria is a little more needy and a little less spoiled in RWBs? 

I could understand if its that, otherwise it's a shitty move, even beyond the soccer sense.  Am I the only one that feels like "Canada gave you and your family lots kid, show some f'in appreciation".

 

 

[costarg]

1 minute ago, jordan said:

 

thanks! doesn't look like he'll just walk into the starting 11.  

[grigorio]

2 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

The bolded is what it comes down to and I hope that's true- I would love to talk to someone in Canada soccer who has an idea of what the 10 year outlook on that is. We just made a world cup, we're about to host the next, we've increased our ranking by like 30 net points, our best player is one of the best young stars in the world, we've taken down big teams in our conference, what more is it gonna take? I hope that some of these names we've lost over the last year would be the type who would commit to us in 5 years after we have I guess more of a "complete generation" of this iteration of Canadian soccer vs. a flash in the pan, but I wonder if that's realistic.

Here's the rub... It's possible that the players in their efforts to revamp the CSA and "leave the shirt better than it was" by airing all dirty laundry whether real or not have knee-capped the CSAs ability to recruit any dual nationals for a while here... I honestly don't know what the CSA can do to rebuild some appeal for repping Canada because that's been absolutely dragged through the mud by the MNT and WNT over the past year. For those that are patriotic and passionate about repping Canada it may not matter but for this endless list of dual-nats surely every other federation looks to be much more appealing for the foreseeable future til maybe just before 2026 WC when some opportunistic folks might settle for the red and white. 

Maybe the new CBA can solve this if the players actually get back in support of the CSA and take more collective ownership over success of soccer in this country with everyone rowing in the same direction, but otherwise it might be pre-tournament mercenaries for a while here.

Edited May 29, 2023 by grigorio

[InglewoodJack]

23 minutes ago, costarg said:

Entourage = my dad

Hey! Maybe he has a brother too. Maybe his mom’s good with numbers, there would be a whole operation!!

[h coach]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

I don't think anyone is happy with Jebbison sticking with England's youths, it's more just that there's an extremely small chance that he ever plays for their senior team while there's a much better chance that players who play for Croatia, Serbia, Algeria, Morocco, etc., have a much better chance of capping for them. That said, the underlying context here is that we're only going to get players who aren't good enough for other teams which sucks, but hey, if your #3 striker is England's 6th best striker or whatever Jebbison maxes out as, that's not bad.

The bolded is what it comes down to and I hope that's true- I would love to talk to someone in Canada soccer who has an idea of what the 10 year outlook on that is. We just made a world cup, we're about to host the next, we've increased our ranking by like 30 net points, our best player is one of the best young stars in the world, we've taken down big teams in our conference, what more is it gonna take? I hope that some of these names we've lost over the last year would be the type who would commit to us in 5 years after we have I guess more of a "complete generation" of this iteration of Canadian soccer vs. a flash in the pan, but I wonder if that's realistic.

I suspect where the parents are born has a big influence. If the parents are born outside of Canada, there is probably more encouragement to play for the “old country”. 

[Shway]

1 minute ago, h coach said:

I suspect where the parents are born has a big influence. If the parents are born outside of Canada, there is probably more encouragement to play for the “old country”. 

Not when the parents are born in Jamaica. 
I could be wrong, but this could be the first time we are "snubbed" by an African country. 

Europe it happens for a reason that usually is explainable imo. 

[Big_M]

belmadi is under huge pressure to get results at the next afcon after a big failure in the last one failing to get out of the group and failing to qualify for the world cup...if he brings in and plays an mls player over players who are at good levels in europe there will be even more questions

[footballfreak]

21 minutes ago, h coach said:

I suspect where the parents are born has a big influence. If the parents are born outside of Canada, there is probably more encouragement to play for the “old country”. 

It’s not always pushed by the parents.

There’s a pretty well known phenomenon where some children of immigrants are more likely to view their parents’ country(s) of origin more favourably than their parents do; and more likely to view their “new” country less favourably than their parents do. It’s been a long time since I read about it, so I hope I’m not misrepresenting the data. Iirc, the trend reverses again in the third generation, who tend to be better culturally assimilated than both generations one and two.

It’s by no means a universal experience of course. I’m sure there are plenty of second gen folks who feel very Canadian - ourNT roster is proof positive.

I’m something like 3rd/4th gen depending on the side of the family, so I’ve never really thought of myself as anything other than Canadian. I’d certainly be interested to hear from any second generation folks on whether they experienced that overcompensation towards a parental homeland. I imagine there will be some selection bias on a pro-Canada soccer board, but so be it.

[InglewoodJack]

1 hour ago, h coach said:

I suspect where the parents are born has a big influence. If the parents are born outside of Canada, there is probably more encouragement to play for the “old country”. 

Even then though, some of the most "patriotic" canadians I know are people whose parents came here with very little, built a good life for themselves and they feel forever indebted to the country for it. I think it comes down to opportunity. African teams play more meaningful games than Concacaf teams do, a big continental cup performance there means that he's getting tested against guys like Mane, Salah, Hakimi and about a million other guys whereas with us he's playing against, uh... Christian Pulisic... Taty Castellanos... Andre Blake... you get the picture.

[Aird25]

36 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Even then though, some of the most "patriotic" canadians I know are people whose parents came here with very little, built a good life for themselves and they feel forever indebted to the country for it. I think it comes down to opportunity. African teams play more meaningful games than Concacaf teams do, a big continental cup performance there means that he's getting tested against guys like Mane, Salah, Hakimi and about a million other guys whereas with us he's playing against, uh... Christian Pulisic... Taty Castellanos... Andre Blake... you get the picture.

The second concacaf player you could come up with is Argentinian?

[InglewoodJack]

Just now, Aird25 said:

The second concacaf player you could come up with is Argentinian?

I knew I could count on you to correct my posts. I don't know why I keep thinking he's Mexican.

[Kadenge]

The AFC is one of the hardest confederations for teams to qualify re WC.  This past cycle alone, Nigeria and the Ivory Coast who are both loaded with top end talent failed to qualify and so did Algeria. There's much more parity in the AFC. 

[Kadenge]

5 hours ago, Borjans Sweatpants said:

I see both sides of this argument.

Ya, would suck to have him use our systems and development resources to get where he is, but then we encourage Jebbison to stay within the UK system as long as possible and to switch to us later because our youth system is a joke 😆

 

True, but if Jebbo was called to the England senior squad and had the chance of getting mins, you can be sure he would accept the call. We don't know if JH & Farsi had a conversation relating to his decision not to be included. All we know is that Farsi rejected to be on the 53 man list.

[costarg]

4 hours ago, Kadenge said:

True, but if Jebbo was called to the England senior squad and had the chance of getting mins, you can be sure he would accept the call. We don't know if JH & Farsi had a conversation relating to his decision not to be included. All we know is that Farsi rejected to be on the 53 man list.

Something doesn't line up here.... I don't see how Farsi rejects being put on a list.  How does it harm or affect him to be on the list?  Why would one say no to that?  We have quite a few examples where guys accepted being on the list even when they had no or little intention of actually showing up.

My mind pictures a scenario where Herdman presented a clear and detailed plan to have him at either the Gold Cup or Nations Leagues team, and Mo said "ya, i'm not sure, i haven't made up my mind..." to which Herdman said "ya ok, ciao, bye" kinda like "a la Scotty". 

Makes a lot more sense and totally in line with Herdman's style and approach.

Edited May 30, 2023 by costarg

[Borjans Sweatpants]

6 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

I think it comes down to opportunity. African teams play more meaningful games than Concacaf teams do, a big continental cup performance there means that he's getting tested against guys like Mane, Salah, Hakimi and about a million other guys whereas with us he's playing against, uh... Christian Pulisic... Taty Castellanos... Andre Blake... you get the picture.

I agree its that, but I think a lot of it has to do with his upbringing. I can imagine it being pretty exciting for an 11 year old to watch the World Cup in 2010 cheering on Algeria with relatives and friends, and then again in 2014 where they made the Round of 16. Those formative years stick with you, and Canada wasn't near the same level at that point, so you can imagine him dreaming of one day playing at the World Cup, and seeing that line up more with Algeria than Canada.

 

9 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

The bolded is what it comes down to and I hope that's true- I would love to talk to someone in Canada soccer who has an idea of what the 10 year outlook on that is. We just made a world cup, we're about to host the next, we've increased our ranking by like 30 net points, our best player is one of the best young stars in the world, we've taken down big teams in our conference, what more is it gonna take?

I think the biggest thing for this is having it not be a flash in the pan, but having a regular stay at the top of CONCACAF and in the World Cup. Dual nationals will then be able to see their future path by staying and playing for Canada instead of feeling a need to go a different route. That doesn't just happen with a single WC, but multiple appearances over time. 

[Macksam]

8 hours ago, costarg said:

Something doesn't line up here.... I don't see how Farsi rejects being put on a list.  How does it harm or affect him to be on the list?  Why would one say no to that?  We have quite a few examples where guys accepted being on the list even when they had no or little intention of actually showing up.

My mind pictures a scenario where Herdman presented a clear and detailed plan to have him at either the Gold Cup or Nations Leagues team, and Mo said "ya, i'm not sure, i haven't made up my mind..." to which Herdman said "ya ok, ciao, bye" kinda like "a la Scotty". 

Makes a lot more sense and totally in line with Herdman's style and approach.

Possibly to show Algeria how serious he is about joining them.

[johnyb]

16 hours ago, footballfreak said:

It’s not always pushed by the parents.

There’s a pretty well known phenomenon where some children of immigrants are more likely to view their parents’ country(s) of origin more favourably than their parents do; and more likely to view their “new” country less favourably than their parents do. It’s been a long time since I read about it, so I hope I’m not misrepresenting the data. Iirc, the trend reverses again in the third generation, who tend to be better culturally assimilated than both generations one and two.

It’s by no means a universal experience of course. I’m sure there are plenty of second gen folks who feel very Canadian - ourNT roster is proof positive.

I’m something like 3rd/4th gen depending on the side of the family, so I’ve never really thought of myself as anything other than Canadian. I’d certainly be interested to hear from any second generation folks on whether they experienced that overcompensation towards a parental homeland. I imagine there will be some selection bias on a pro-Canada soccer board, but so be it.

This is a good point. My parents were Italian immigrants and when I graduated I mentioned an idea about going to work in Italy for a few years. My Dad's response..."I spent my life trying to get out of that country, and you want to move there?"

Edited May 30, 2023 by johnyb

[Sal333]

10 hours ago, costarg said:

Something doesn't line up here.... I don't see how Farsi rejects being put on a list.  How does it harm or affect him to be on the list?  Why would one say no to that?  We have quite a few examples where guys accepted being on the list even when they had no or little intention of actually showing up.

My mind pictures a scenario where Herdman presented a clear and detailed plan to have him at either the Gold Cup or Nations Leagues team, and Mo said "ya, i'm not sure, i haven't made up my mind..." to which Herdman said "ya ok, ciao, bye" kinda like "a la Scotty". 

Makes a lot more sense and totally in line with Herdman's style and approach.

I was about to post a similar thought.

[Unnamed Trialist]

23 minutes ago, johnyb said:

This is a good point. My parents were Italian immigrants and when I graduated I mentioned an idea about going to work in Italy for a few years. My Dad's response..."I spent my life trying to get out of that country, and you want to move there?"

I have Moroccan neighbours here, like a father of a big family who has a scrap metal business with his cousins, and those guys, in the middle of so many youngsters like their kids going crazy with Morocco at the WC (most born in Spain), screwed up their noses, had that look of disgust on their faces, and said pretty well the same. And they are footy fans, I used to watch Barça with them in (odd this) a Chinese restaurant with a screen. But weren't going to celebrate a good Morocco showing.

 

[Sal333]

9 hours ago, Borjans Sweatpants said:

 

I think the biggest thing for this is having it not be a flash in the pan, but having a regular stay at the top of CONCACAF and in the World Cup. Dual nationals will then be able to see their future path by staying and playing for Canada instead of feeling a need to go a different route. That doesn't just happen with a single WC, but multiple appearances over time. 

I'm of the opposite opinion. The more success this team garners, the more dual nationals will go with their 2nd choice. To reap more success, Canada would need good to great players in all positions and in both primary and secondary roles. That means fewer and fewer places will be opened for dual nationals. Mo Farsi is a perfect example. Do you really think he would hem and haw at Herdman's invitation if Canada had absolutely no one at RWB? So the more stacked Canada's roster becomes, the more dual nationals will go with another country. Only the elite will give Canada a consideration. That's a good thing.

[InglewoodJack]

10 hours ago, costarg said:

Something doesn't line up here.... I don't see how Farsi rejects being put on a list.  How does it harm or affect him to be on the list?  Why would one say no to that?  We have quite a few examples where guys accepted being on the list even when they had no or little intention of actually showing up.

My mind pictures a scenario where Herdman presented a clear and detailed plan to have him at either the Gold Cup or Nations Leagues team, and Mo said "ya, i'm not sure, i haven't made up my mind..." to which Herdman said "ya ok, ciao, bye" kinda like "a la Scotty". 

Makes a lot more sense and totally in line with Herdman's style and approach.

This is how I see it too. Koleosho is on the list even though I don't think we're going to see him make that decision just yet, same with Morris, so my guess is Farsi was going to not only get called but would play, and he said he wasn't ready to play so because this list is effectively an administrative task and not an official roster, he just took him off the list.

22 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

I'm of the opposite opinion. The more success this team garners, the more dual nationals will go with their 2nd choice. To reap more success, Canada would need good to great players in all positions and in both primary and secondary roles. That means fewer and fewer places will be opened for dual nationals. Mo Farsi is a perfect example. Do you really think he would hem and haw at Herdman's invitation if Canada had absolutely no one at RWB? So the more stacked Canada's roster becomes, the more dual nationals will go with another country. Only the elite will give Canada a consideration. That's a good thing.

Yes. I think it's less about how good the player is and more about how good they ("their entourage") think they are. No young player is looking at CANMNT and going "realistically speaking I will never be as good as alistair johnston or Richie Laryea". These guys all think they're going places; you don't become a pro athlete if you don't think you're better than everyone, at least to some extent. I don't know what Farsi's ceiling is but I definitely think that he's under the impression he's good enough for Europe and like a lot of young players, he probably thinks he can play in one of the best leagues in the world one day. Canada's depth chart is a player playing in Scotland, a farmers league, and a TFC player who couldn't even see the pitch in the champions league? Pffffffft

I think the best view into the best case scenario for our future is looking at Morocco- a country that oscillates between being pretty decent to really really good. They've taken players off of really good countries whose teams those players could've theoretically cracked if they waited a few years, but they've also lost players to those very same countries. I think we're a few generations away from Canadians having the same attachment to soccer in our country as Moroccans have with theirs (if ever), but they can attract players in part because those players know that if they commit, they might actually accomplish something.

[Bigandy]

14 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

This is how I see it too. Koleosho is on the list even though I don't think we're going to see him make that decision just yet, same with Morris, so my guess is Farsi was going to not only get called but would play, and he said he wasn't ready to play so because this list is effectively an administrative task and not an official roster, he just took him off the list.

Yes. I think it's less about how good the player is and more about how good they ("their entourage") think they are. No young player is looking at CANMNT and going "realistically speaking I will never be as good as alistair johnston or Richie Laryea". These guys all think they're going places; you don't become a pro athlete if you don't think you're better than everyone, at least to some extent. I don't know what Farsi's ceiling is but I definitely think that he's under the impression he's good enough for Europe and like a lot of young players, he probably thinks he can play in one of the best leagues in the world one day. Canada's depth chart is a player playing in Scotland, a farmers league, and a TFC player who couldn't even see the pitch in the champions league? Pffffffft

I think the best view into the best case scenario for our future is looking at Morocco- a country that oscillates between being pretty decent to really really good. They've taken players off of really good countries whose teams those players could've theoretically cracked if they waited a few years, but they've also lost players to those very same countries. I think we're a few generations away from Canadians having the same attachment to soccer in our country as Moroccans have with theirs (if ever), but they can attract players in part because those players know that if they commit, they might actually accomplish something.

I disagree. Using your logic of "im better than everyone", every player would always fight for a spot at their club but players leave their clubs regularly for more playing time. Even if you think youre the best player, you can still be realistic about the liklihood of playing time you will receive. 

How could players not think about the depth chart. These guys arent stupid. AJ is an ironman in the squad, laryea is incredibly trusted, buchanan is likely going to a champions league finalist, Sigur is starting in croatia, franklin is starting to emerge, We could even talk about how the emergence of a guy like bombito increases the liklihood that AJ moves to RWB or that we play with a back 4 (both scenarios are bad for farsi), choiniere can play WB, zator can play RB in a back 4, ZBG has experience with the national team. However, only 1 RB plays at a time and theres so many things that have to happen for farsi to become the number 1 choice. 

Sure, farsi probably thinks hes better than ZBG, franklin and choiniere but farsi isnt dumb enough to think that JH sees him as the best RB option for canada. Maybe one day but that is a HUGE maybe. Why should he gamble on a HUGE maybe instead of waiting to see how he develops. 

This board seems really upset at farsi for not picking Canada but I see this as a move for him to figure out if hes even good enough for either squad.