Should Herdman be fired ?

[narduch]

7 minutes ago, Shway said:

I missed it, who mentioned he's on 1M contract? 

If that is true, in that case I think he's overpaid. Nobody is asking for Ancelloti, Benitez type caliber coaches. But im sure we can find a coach on 1M. 

(Question, does anyone know how much Dos Santos  is on at the whitecaps?) 

Duane Rollins tweeted that his contract is for $10 million and runs til 2026. 

I guess we are burning our friendly budget on Herdman's wages.  

Edited July 5, 2019 by narduch

[apbsmith]

57 minutes ago, Shway said:

I missed it, who mentioned he's on 1M contract? 

In the "Herdman new head coach" thread, starts around page 54.

If it is in fact 10M until 2026, you could assume that's 1M a year, but there is likely more to it.  No idea of all contract details, if includes bonuses and/or other CSA duties, the entire contract terms including $ were never officially announced. Someone on here probably knows more.

Edit : post above mine^

Edit thread : "Herdman new head coach"

Edited July 5, 2019 by apbsmith
Post above

[BrennanFan]

Oscar Pareja - formerly with Dallas, now with Tijuana

Jason Kreis - over 10 years managing in MLS, currently with USA U23s

Piotr Nowak - former USA U23, DC, Philly and most recently coached Vitoria's team Lechia in Poland 

Dominic Kinnear - vastly experienced in MLS, currently assistant for the Galaxy 

I mean, one can just go on and on and find good experienced coaches ready to step up into the International level who are in our salary range. It's just laughable that we are stuck with a rookie.

[Cheeta]

6 minutes ago, narduch said:

Duane Rollins tweeted that his contract is for $10 million and runs til 2026. 

I guess we are burning our friendly budget on Herdman's wages.  

If he's on at $10M for the duration somebody needs to be fired and sued.

The length of the contract is suspicious enough on it's own, but attaching that dollar commitment to it would demand inquiry.

More likely $1M allocation for technical staff (coaches, trainers, blah, blah, blah)?  That would be more reasonable.  Adds up pretty quickly, the skilled labour 

[BrennanFan]

This is all conjecture but I've also heard its over 1 million per year to Herdman through 2026. Apparently they broke the piggy bank to get Floro which is what started our current mess, with Herdman throwing a hissy fit that he was making so much less for the 'same job' and thus began his threats to leave the program. Next thing you know he's a made man and the CSA's director of development, who 'perhaps' played a significant role in the OZ firing, is now an assistant with the CMNT despite also having no prior experience coaching a mens team at any level.

Just gotta shake my head.

[Binky]

3 hours ago, SpecialK said:

9 games against who?? Shop keepers and semi pro players !!! Oh please Those records mean nothing when your playing against teams that have no business being there ! I’m sorry for those teams but it’s the truth. That’s  the sad position CONCACAF is in 

 

Using the current FIFA/Coca-Cola rankings in which Canada is ranked #78:

#119 - New Zealand (W)

#199 - U.S. Virgin Islands (W)

#177 - Dominica (W)

#133 - St. Kitts & Nevis (W)

N. R. - French Guiana (W)

N. R. - Martinique (W)

#18 - Mexico B (L)

#175 - Cuba (W)

#101 - Haiti (L)

Only once, has Herdman played against a country ranked above Canada. Does anyone seriously expect Canada to upset the USA in the Nations League? So finishing second in a group with Cuba cannot be considered a success. Then we move on the World Cup qualifying. Where the U.S.A., Costa Rica, Jamaica, Honduras, El Salvador and Panama are all waiting for us. Chances are that Canada will be lucky if we play one home match against a higher ranked country between the Nations League matches and World Cup qualifying. And then we have Herdman, the snake oil salesman with  his vast international coaching experience, who guarantees that Canada will qualify for Qatar. Suckers!

 

[SpecialK]

25 minutes ago, Binky said:

Using the current FIFA/Coca-Cola rankings in which Canada is ranked #78:

#119 - New Zealand (W)

#199 - U.S. Virgin Islands (W)

#177 - Dominica (W)

#133 - St. Kitts & Nevis (W)

N. R. - French Guiana (W)

N. R. - Martinique (W)

#18 - Mexico B (L)

#175 - Cuba (W)

#101 - Haiti (L)

Only once, has Herdman played against a country ranked above Canada. Does anyone seriously expect Canada to upset the USA in the Nations League? So finishing second in a group with Cuba cannot be considered a success. Then we move on the World Cup qualifying. Where the U.S.A., Costa Rica, Jamaica, Honduras, El Salvador and Panama are all waiting for us. Chances are that Canada will be lucky if we play one home match against a higher ranked country between the Nations League matches and World Cup qualifying. And then we have Herdman, the snake oil salesman with  his vast international coaching experience, who guarantees that Canada will qualify for Qatar. Suckers!

 

Your missing one thing, that New Zealand was basically their B/C team they were missing keys players and won 1-0. But we didn’t have the team like what we have now. 

[Binky]

26 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

Your missing one thing, that New Zealand was basically their B/C team they were missing keys players and won 1-0. But we didn’t have the team like what we have now. 

I have never considered this match to be even close to being an "A" international friendly, however, the CSA and few others do, so for that reason I have included the game.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Binky

[RJB]

Not yet. But like many others, he didn’t deserve this job. He put the knife in the back of OZ, and slipped into his job Hamlet style. 

That said, he - like Zambrano before - deserves time. It’s been a really long time since we’ve been a player in CONCACAF, and despite the very misleading romp to nations league qualifying, we still aren’t. 

And honestly, the nations league will likely also tell us very little. We’ll finish second in our group unless some travesty against Cuba, so the real test will be in WCQ.

Like so many cycles before, we won’t know until it’s too late. 

[hamiltonfan]

4 hours ago, SpecialK said:

Here’s a list of just a few Canadian/ Canadian connection pro/international experience managers : 

Jimmy Nicholl - currently assistant manager of northern Ireland and Dundee FC 

Teams managed

1990–1996- Raith Rovers(player-manager)

1996–1997-Millwall

1997–1999- Raith Rovers

2010–2011- Cowdenbeath

2013- Hibernian(caretaker)

2013–2015- Cowdenbeath

2018-Rangers(caretaker)

John van’t Schrip - currently unattached

 Teams managed

2001–2002- Twente

2002–2004-Jong Ajax

2004–2008-Netherlands(Assistant)

2009-Ajax(Assistant and Interim)

2009–2012- Melbourne Heart

2012–2013-Guadalajara

2013–2017- Melbourne City

2017–2018- PEC Zwolle

Dwight Lodeweges - currently assistant manager Netherlands

Teams managed

1989–1990- Go Ahead Eagles(Youth Head Coach)

1990–1995- Go Ahead Eagles(Assistant Coach)

1995–1998- VVOG

1998–2001- FC Zwolle

2001-FC Groningen

2002- FC Groningen II

2003-FC Groningen(Assistant Coach)

2003–2004- SC Heerenveen(Assistant Coach)

2004–2005-Al-Jazira(Assistant Coach)

2006–2007- Nagoya Grampus assistant Coach)

2007–2008

PSV U-19(Assistant Coach)

2008–2009- PSV(Assistant Coach)

2009- PSV

2009- NEC

2010- FC Edmonton

2011- JEF United Chiba

2013–2014- SC Cambuur

2014–2015- SC Heerenveen

2015-2018 - PEC Zwolle (Youth Coach)

2016-2017 - Netherlands U20 

2017-2018 - PEC Zwolle ( Assistant manager)

Mark Watson - currently assistant manager Minnesota United

Teams managed

2004–2008Canada(assistant)

2006–2009Charleston Battery(assistant)

2007–2010Canada U20(assistant)

2010–2013San Jose Earthquakes(assistant)

2013San Jose Earthquakes(interim)

2013–2014San Jose Earthquakes

2014–2016-Orlando City(assistant)

Alan Koch - currently unattached

Teams managed

2003–2005- Midwestern State University(assistant)

2006–2008- Baker University

2009- Vancouver Whitecaps FC (women)

2008–2015- Simon Fraser University

2015–2016- Whitecaps FC 2

2017–2018- FC Cincinnati (USL)

2019- FC Cincinnati

Dejan Gluscevic - currently Assistant manager FK Zemun

Teams managed

2002 - North York Astros(player/coach)

2005- North York Astros

2006–2009- Red Star Belgrade (youth)

2009–2010- Rad Belgrade(youth)

2010–2016- Singapore U-15

2017 - Vanuatu U20

Kevin McKenna - currently assistant manager 1. FC Köln 2

Teams Managed 

2014 - 2017 1. FC Köln U19 ( assistant manager)

2017-2018 1. FC Köln ( assistant manager)

2019 1. FC Köln 2( caretaker)

 

I can’t believe the CSA didn’t interview any of them ! 

 

 

And they shouldn’t have interviewed any. Raise the bar ! 

[SpecialK]

1 hour ago, hamiltonfan said:

And they shouldn’t have interviewed any. Raise the bar ! 

It’s nice to have a Canadian connection, also money is a issue. Also John was coaching with the Dutch at the 06 World Cup, also Dwight is with the Dutch team now that retooling back into form.  To me the bar is pretty high on them. John won in Australia and has coached in Mexico, moving to Europe both for club and international. Dwight as coach everywhere and at all levels.  They even coach together. 

So your saying if they are good enough for  the Dutch, they are not good  enough for Canada? 

Edited July 5, 2019 by SpecialK

[Bertuzzi44]

Doing my part to try to at least put a little heat on Herdman. Since the "soccer media" haven't asked hard questions, I guess we fans will have to do that work ourselves!

Got TSN 1040 in Vancouver to talk about the CMNT during prime time, even for a minute, is a win in my books

@ 38:45
https://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040/sekeres-price-july-4-hour-2-1.1333171

[Binky]

I am dumbfounded by the dichotomy on this board, where if someone puts forth Christine Sinclair's name, in another thread on this forum, as a potential coach for the CWNT, that there are vehement objections because she lacks coaching experience, yet, on the other hand,  there are many here who have no problem with giving John Herdman that job with the CMNT, even though he has zilch experience when it comes to coaching men???

Then, when that coaching inexperience becomes blatantly obvious in one of the three major competitions that the CMNT competes in, hordes of you turn into "Polite Canadians" and turn on posters who point that lack of experience. Don't our players deserve the best and most experienced coach that the CSA can afford? Is John Herdman the best and most experienced coach the CSA can afford? Like how many failures does it take before the CSA will replace a CMNT? Do Voyageurs and all other Canadian soccer supporters have to put up with another 4 years of victories against minnows and failures against all others? Like when was the last time that the CMNT upset a team that was ranked higher in an international competition? When? Speak up, I can't hear you? Canada deserves better than Herdman!

[nolbertos]

25 minutes ago, Binky said:

I am dumbfounded by the dichotomy on this board, where if someone puts forth Christine Sinclair's name, in another thread on this forum, as a potential coach for the CWNT, that there are vehement objections because she lacks coaching experience, yet, on the other hand,  there are many here who have no problem with giving John Herdman that job with the CMNT, even though he has zilch experience when it comes to coaching men???

Then, when that coaching inexperience becomes blatantly obvious in one of the three major competitions that the CMNT competes in, hordes of you turn into "Polite Canadians" and turn on posters who point that lack of experience. Don't our players deserve the best and most experienced coach that the CSA can afford? Is John Herdman the best and most experienced coach the CSA can afford? Like how many failures does it take before the CSA will replace a CMNT? Do Voyageurs and all other Canadian soccer supporters have to put up with another 4 years of victories against minnows and failures against all others? Like when was the last time that the CMNT upset a team that was ranked higher in an international competition? When? Speak up, I can't hear you? Canada deserves better than Herdman!

I agree, but at the end of the day, the CSA puts so many conditions that quality coaches don’t bother or decide to retract there resume.  I’m not sure how much Floro got paid, but when he got hired our program was in worst shambles thanks to Hart, and again the CSA going the cheap route hiring a guy that only coached the Halifax Donairs got us searching slightly above that regular pay level.  Comparing South American coaches, most of the club ones are probably making $500K or less per year.  If Canada were to poach Marcelo Gallardo from River Plate, for Herdman’s salary, he would probably do more wonders for the national team than Herdman for sure.

[Binky]

1 hour ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

Doing my part to try to at least put a little heat on Herdman. Since the "soccer media" haven't asked hard questions, I guess we fans will have to do that work ourselves!

Got TSN 1040 in Vancouver to talk about the CMNT during prime time, even for a minute, is a win in my books

@ 38:45
https://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040/sekeres-price-july-4-hour-2-1.1333171

Bravo. It is quite clear from this interview that the average Canadian media, as well as the average Canadian sports fans, has little or no interest at all in Canadian soccer, and to tell you the truth, based on the results, who can really blame them.

Conversely, isn't interesting and ironic how everybody jumps on the bandwagon when there's a winner in town. Like based on the recent success of the Toronto Raptors, you would say the Canada has always been a BASKETBALL CRAZY NATION for years, right?

Nobody likes or identifies with a loser, and Herdman still hasn't beaten any team of note, men or women, in any major international competitions. With soccer matches being broadcast less and less on television, I haven't watched any streamed Canadian soccer matches that I have to pay for. And I suspect most Canadians feel the same way. So exposure now becomes a big problem for the CSA. With fewer and fewer televised matches, how does the CSA expect to attract a new generation? Like who is going to pay to watch Canada lose to Haiti? It was quite obvious nether Sekeres nor Price had watched the game, which really says something when the segments of the Canadian sports media aren't watching the Canadian Men's National Team when it is playing a quarter-final match at the Gold Cup.

Here's a hint. Hire an experienced coach that knows how to beat countries like Haiti, Jamaica, El Salvador, Honduras, Costa Rica, Mexico and the U.S.A on the men's side, and the U.S.A., Japan, Germany, Sweden and the Netherlands on the women's side. Has Herdman ever beaten any of those countries in a major international competition?  

Edited July 5, 2019 by Binky

[Binky]

2 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

I agree, but at the end of the day, the CSA puts so many conditions that quality coaches don’t bother or decide to retract there resume.  I’m not sure how much Floro got paid, but when he got hired our program was in worst shambles thanks to Hart, and again the CSA going the cheap route hiring a guy that only coached the Halifax Donairs got us searching slightly above that regular pay level.  Comparing South American coaches, most of the club ones are probably making $500K or less per year.  If Canada were to poach Marcelo Gallardo from River Plate, for Herdman’s salary, he would probably do more wonders for the national team than Herdman for sure.

There have to be a ton of experience Latin and South American coaches who can speak English that are looking for employment. Has the CSA ever gone to look down south for a coach? Like how much would they have to pay a guy from Central America to move to Canada?

[Binky]

Like if we keep losing out to countries like Costa Rica, Jamaica, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala and Panama, why not hire someone from one of those countries to show us how to win? There are lists of great available coaches on this thread, yet none of them come from the countries I just mentioned. Why is that?

[maccaliam]

19 hours ago, ted said:

Opinions are like ********, everyone has one.

We lost a quarterfinal game in the Gold Cup by one goal. We didn't **** the bed, and Herdman needs to learn and grow just as the team does. Just as any team does. 

I can’t tell if your post is denial or deflection? 😉

To be honest, I do think we shit the bed in the second half vs Haiti. Both Herdman and the players did. 

There is a difference between dwelling on something, and reflecting on what happened. I think it is important to not just move on as you suggest, as we can only get better and learn from matches like the Haiti one if we properly analyze and reflect on both the successes and mistakes from previous matches. 

[Binky]

1 hour ago, maccaliam said:

I can’t tell if your post is denial or deflection? 😉

To be honest, I do think we **** the bed in the second half vs Haiti. Both Herdman and the players did. 

There is a difference between dwelling on something, and reflecting on what happened. I think it is important to not just move on as you suggest, as we can only get better and learn from matches like the Haiti one if we properly analyze and reflect on both the successes and mistakes from previous matches. 

Was it a mistake on Herdman's part not to select a CPL prospect to the Gold Cup roster? What harm could an 80th minute substitution done?  What benefits could an 80th minute substitution have had? Wasn't there at least one player that Herdman selected below that could have been replaced with a young CPL prospect? Just image the impact this would have had on a young prospect, on every other player in the CPL, on the CPL itself, and on Canadian soccer in general? Did the inexperienced Herdman drop the ball here as well?  

2019 CANADIAN GOLD CUP SQUAD
GK- Milan Borjan | SRB / FK Crvena zvezda (Red Star Belgrade)
GK- Maxime Crépeau | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
GK- Jayson Leutwiler | ENG / Blackburn Rovers
CB- Derek Cornelius | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
CB- Doneil Henry | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
CB- Kamal Miller | USA / Orlando City SC
FB- Zachary Brault-Guillard | CAN / Impact de Montréal
FB- Marcus Godinho | SCO / Heart of Midlothian FC
FB- Ashtone Morgan | CAN / Toronto FC
M- Scott Arfield | SCO / Glasgow Rangers FC
M- Atiba Hutchinson | TUR / Beşiktaş JK
M- Will Johnson | USA / Orlando City SC
M- Mark-Anthony Kaye | USA / Los Angeles FC
M- Noble Okello | CAN / Toronto FC
M- Jonathan Osorio | CAN / Toronto FC
M- Samuel Piette | CAN / Impact de Montréal
M- Russell Teibert | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
F- Lucas Cavallini | MEX / Puebla FC
F- Jonathan David | BEL / KAA Gent
F- Cyle Larin | TUR / Beşiktaş JK
W- Alphonso Davies | GER / FC Bayern München
W- David Junior Hoilett | WAL / Cardiff City FC
W- Liam Millar | ENG / Liverpool FC U-23

Edited July 5, 2019 by Binky

[Blackdude]

1 hour ago, Binky said:

Was it a mistake on Herdman's part not to select a CPL prospect to the Gold Cup roster? What harm could an 80th minute substitution done?  What benefits could an 80th minute substitution have had? Wasn't there at least one player that Herdman selected below that could have been replaced with a young CPL prospect? Just image the impact this would have had on a young prospect, on every other player in the CPL, on the CPL itself, and on Canadian soccer in general? Did the inexperienced Herdman drop the ball here as well?  

No. I think Herdman should have called a defender instead of Okello. And I think we have better defenders still playing abroad than in CPL. 

[Binky]

23 minutes ago, Blackdude said:

No. I think Herdman should have called a defender instead of Okello. And I think we have better defenders still playing abroad than in CPL. 

Oh dear. So you're saying that there are currently no young players in the CPL that are good enough to be on a mediocre Canadian national team roster that performed so poorly at the Gold Cup? Not a very glowing assessment of the overall talent level of the CPL now, is it?

With most predicting that Canada will finish in second place in the group with Mexico and Cuba at the upcoming Nations League matches, should Herdman give a young CPL prospect an opportunity? 

[ted]

I guess all I am saying is I don't believe any other coach currently working on this planet could have done any better at this tournament.

Sure, he could have made different decisions, but when I mentioned that he needs to learn and grow as a coach, I was ridiculed. If you are offering reasonable critique of his decisions, have at 'er. But any talk of firing is simply bullshit.This coach and this group of players are working towards qualifying for WC 2022. If they fail, then we fire him.

[king1010]

4 minutes ago, ted said:

I guess all I am saying is I don't believe any other coach currently working on this planet could have done any better at this tournament.

Sure, he could have made different decisions, but when I mentioned that he needs to learn and grow as a coach, I was ridiculed. If you are offering reasonable critique of his decisions, have at 'er. But any talk of firing is simply ********.This coach and this group of players are working towards qualifying for WC 2022. If they fail, then we fire him.

I think another coach could have done better in this tournament. Specifically handling the second half of the qfs differently. This would have led to a semi finals and better result. 

I agree Herdman needs to learn and grow. 

[Obinna]

33 minutes ago, Binky said:

Oh dear. So you're saying that there are currently no young players in the CPL that are good enough to be on a mediocre Canadian national team roster that performed so poorly at the Gold Cup? Not a very glowing assessment of the overall talent level of the CPL now, is it?

With most predicting that Canada will finish in second place in the group with Mexico and Cuba at the upcoming Nations League matches, should Herdman give a young CPL prospect an opportunity? 

We play US not Mexico.

Who from the CPL would you call?

[Binky]

21 hours ago, ted said:

I guess all I am saying is I don't believe any other coach currently working on this planet could have done any better at this tournament.

Sure, he could have made different decisions, but when I mentioned that he needs to learn and grow as a coach, I was ridiculed. If you are offering reasonable critique of his decisions, have at 'er. But any talk of firing is simply ********.This coach and this group of players are working towards qualifying for WC 2022. If they fail, then we fire him.

In other words, the CSA can afford to shell out $1M plus on an inexperienced coach, who is learning how to grow. Good grief, if that's not disrespecting the current group of CMNT players than I don't know what is. You get out of a program what you put into it. In most cases that will result in the CSA losing money, as in any professional sport, after paying the players there's very little money left unless your team happens to win a big tournament..

Edited July 6, 2019 by Binky