CPL new teams speculation

[Initial B]

I think FIFA Article 93 exceptional circumstances will still apply to the US and Canada forever. They just have to look at the precedent of Canadian teams in American leagues in other sports and consider it normal operations. They may start to be able to make the case if the quality of the CanPL ever approaches that of MLS, but the desire of Americans to be the best in the world in everything means they probably see being *the* top league in the world as their Manifest Destiny and CanPL will never catch up. 

If you wonder why I'm so adamant about keeping the three Canadian Clubs in MLS, I foresee the USL becoming the development league for American professionals and MLS is going to slowly release its restrictions on international players in order to have the highest quality players in the world. Having 3 teams still in MLS will allow more Canadians (if they're good enough) to play at a very high level without having to go to Europe, and those in their academies will be exposed to some of the best players in the world.

There are more billionaire owners in MLS than in any other league in the world save EPL. That fiscal power will be brought to bear at some point and once the quality increases enough, non-European soccer players will want to try their hand at the American Dream over a life in Europe. If MLS can thread the expansion needle, I see this as being inevitable within 50 years. Of course, this assumes that the US doesn't collapse in the next couple of decades.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Initial B

[youllneverwalkalone]

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, Initial B said:

I think FIFA Article 93 exceptional circumstances will still apply to the US and Canada forever. They just have to look at the precedent of Canadian teams in American leagues in other sports and consider it normal operations.

FIFA aren't concerned by other North American leagues or sports.

4 minutes ago, Initial B said:

They may start to be able to make the case if the quality of the CanPL ever approaches that of MLS, but the desire of Americans to be the best in the world in everything means they probably see being *the* top league in the world as their Manifest Destiny and CanPL will never catch up. 

Forced parity isn't the "norm" but the exception. Most top leagues have big disparity between the top 5 clubs and mostly the rest. At one time, PSG salary cap was as big as half the French league combined and were routinely crushing every teams.

Also this happened in the case of Silva v. USSF to force Pro/Rel at the CAS.

I hope we can finally put this debate to bed with this comment from the CAS

The ruling effectively states that FIFA as the game’s overlord can decided whatever it likes when it comes to its rules 

-CAS

If FIFA wants to enforce Article 73 once the waiver expires, there virtually nothing anyone can do about it.

[Viruk42]

I think that the proposed BeNe League could be a good testing ground to see whether FIFA or UEFA will hit back at the idea of multi-nation European leagues and how that might relate to MLS. I know it's more in FIFA's realm, but even if UEFA rejects it the pro-BeNe teams could point to MLS and say "if they can do it, why can't we?". At which point FIFA may have to take another look at MLS and decide if the precedent is worth it.

Be interesting to see. I can certainly understand the appeal of a BeNe league, in order to better compete with teams in Germany, England, etc, but I imagine FIFA and UEFA would fear it might provoke other neighbouring nations to propose the same. Maybe it would lead to an Austro-Hungarian league or a former Czechoslovakia league (a former Yugoslavia league seems a bit less likely...). At which point the biggest teams can propose their super league with stronger justification.

Oh, and for those who would point to Canada and the US's history of joint leagues, I should point out that there is already an ice hockey BeNe league and was a women's football BeNe league from 2012-2015, so it's not like we're unique.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Viruk42

[youllneverwalkalone]

Surprising how low the TV money is in Holland and Belgium.

[SpursFlu]

The best example is the Euro Basketball League. I think it's got like 12 founding members who are always in and thyre the biggest teams that broke away from Fiba. The remaining 6 or whatever qualify every year thru their Fiba domestic leagues. The Euro League teams cannot qualify for Fiba tournaments like the Euro Champions league or Fiba Club World Cup. This is how I could see things working out in soccer. I don't like the idea personally. I like it the way it is. It's just greedy conglomerates who own these teams now in order to diversify their portfolio who just want to control as much of the global soccer market share as possible 

Edited February 6, 2020 by SpursFlu

[youllneverwalkalone]

Hasan Minhaj did a really good piece on IPL and how it fucked cricket. Definitely worth a watch. His conclusion wasn't death to MLS, but that's what I drew from it.

[dnina10]

1 hour ago, Viruk42 said:

I think that the proposed BeNe League could be a good testing ground to see whether FIFA or UEFA will hit back at the idea of multi-nation European leagues and how that might relate to MLS. I know it's more in FIFA's realm, but even if UEFA rejects it the pro-BeNe teams could point to MLS and say "if they can do it, why can't we?". At which point FIFA may have to take another look at MLS and decide if the precedent is worth it.

Be interesting to see. I can certainly understand the appeal of a BeNe league, in order to better compete with teams in Germany, England, etc, but I imagine FIFA and UEFA would fear it might provoke other neighbouring nations to propose the same. Maybe it would lead to an Austro-Hungarian league or a former Czechoslovakia league (a former Yugoslavia league seems a bit less likely...). At which point the biggest teams can propose their super league with stronger justification.

Oh, and for those who would point to Canada and the US's history of joint leagues, I should point out that there is already an ice hockey BeNe league and was a women's football BeNe league from 2012-2015, so it's not like we're unique.

We have to keep in mind it the fact that Belgium and the Netherlands are ultimately trying their hardest to keep up with the big 5, while earning more money in order to do so. Comparing the success of both national teams to their respective domestic leagues, it is night and day. Some are for the BeNeLiga, others are against it. As someone who follows both leagues quite closely, I am on the fence about it.

I think the proposed BeNeLiga vs Canadian teams allowed to continue in MLS are not on the same wavelength. I compare the Canadian teams in MLS discussion to Cardiff City, Swansea City et al. playing in the English system despite being based in Wales. That is a more comparable example. Generally speaking, I am someone who is for Article 73. In the Welsh teams' case, they can't justify playing in the English league system, and to a certain extent, I can say the same about TFC, the Impact, and Whitecaps FC

[Viruk42]

1 hour ago, dnina10 said:

I think the proposed BeNeLiga vs Canadian teams allowed to continue in MLS are not on the same wavelength. I compare the Canadian teams in MLS discussion to Cardiff City, Swansea City et al. playing in the English system despite being based in Wales. That is a more comparable example. Generally speaking, I am someone who is for Article 73. In the Welsh teams' case, they can't justify playing in the English league system, and to a certain extent, I can say the same about TFC, the Impact, and Whitecaps FC

I get where you're coming from on that, but let's not forget that Wales and England are actually the same country (whether they like it or not), even if they have two different federations, whereas Canada and the US are not. In sporting terms, yes, the MLS sides are more like Cardiff and Swansea being in the English system, but from a regulatory approach it is far closer to Belgium+Netherlands than to England+Wales.

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, Initial B said:

There are more billionaire owners in MLS than in any other league in the world save EPL. That fiscal power will be brought to bear at some point and once the quality increases enough, non-European soccer players will want to try their hand at the American Dream over a life in Europe. If MLS can thread the expansion needle, I see this as being inevitable within 50 years. Of course, this assumes that the US doesn't collapse in the next couple of decades.

Just want to say, first, that I agree with you that the current set-up will probably stand for a very long time, that our Canadian MLS teams will remain as currently sanctioned in MLS. And I don't mind this, though I do find the lack of reciprocity in labour conditions a scandal and am disappointed the CSA has never pressed on this. We need reciprocity and to stop treating Americans as domestic in Canada if they can't provide it.

As for the quote, you are not being entirely fair in the logic, as there are more teams in MLS than any other top flight. So properly speaking you should compare with pro structures in Germany, Italy, Spain, where you will find billionaire owners of 2nd division teams. And occasionally very deep pockets funding third tier teams. 

Next, I don't know if you have ever lived in Europe, but as a footballer it is the dream. If you want to live it, you go to Europe. Recognition, competition, intensity, fan passion. Money is better even over a wider spread; you can be in Austria, and get scouted by Swiss 1st division, or Bundesliga 2, just to Sweden, and still be looking at a better salary than what many in MLS are seeing. That is 80 teams right there. MLS needs to bridge the gap between top and median salaries, as it is currently unfair, unjustified and unethical for a team sport.

[dyslexic nam]

3 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

The best example is the Euro Basketball League. I think it's got like 12 founding members who are always in and thyre the biggest teams that broke away from Fiba. The remaining 6 or whatever qualify every year thru their Fiba domestic leagues. The Euro League teams cannot qualify for Fiba tournaments like the Euro Champions league or Fiba Club World Cup. This is how I could see things working out in soccer. I don't like the idea personally. I like it the way it is. It's just greedy conglomerates who own these teams now in order to diversify their portfolio who just want to control as much of the global soccer market share as possible 

Ultimately, this is the only sort of authority that FIFA has.  They can't actually prevent new soccer leagues from forming in whatever fashion they want, or prevent any player that wants to from signing with them. 

What they CAN do though is not allow any player affiliated with these rogue/non-compliant leagues to play in FIFA competitions.  You only mention club competitions but FIFA has the added hammer of operating the biggest and most popular single sport event in the world.  And for most players - including all of the elite players that would be on teams interested in a "super league" - that is a very significant lever. 

Bringing this back to MLS, if FIFA chooses to challenge things (and again, not advocating for this - just discussing the dynamics of it) this is important because a lot of USMNT ply their trade in MLS.

[dnina10]

2 hours ago, Viruk42 said:

I get where you're coming from on that, but let's not forget that Wales and England are actually the same country (whether they like it or not), even if they have two different federations, whereas Canada and the US are not. In sporting terms, yes, the MLS sides are more like Cardiff and Swansea being in the English system, but from a regulatory approach it is far closer to Belgium+Netherlands than to England+Wales.

Fair enough. I can understand as well where you are coming from. I guess the only other thing I would point out is the fact that the article did mention the idea of implementing promotion and relegation still, with the bottom 2 teams from each the Netherlands and Belgium being demoted, and being replaced by two teams from each countries' top tier. That is quite a contrast from MLS, who don't even have promotion/relegation (absolutely crazy but that's the US for you). I feel the BeNeLiga is still a bad example for such a comparison. From a regulatory approach, sure, I see where you are coming from. However, generally speaking, I feel there is a lot more involved there than it is here with the Canadian MLS clubs, where it's simply a matter of whether they really should still be playing in a US sanctioned league

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

And I don't mind this, though I do find the lack of reciprocity in labour conditions a scandal and am disappointed the CSA has never pressed on this. We need reciprocity and to stop treating Americans as domestic in Canada if they can't provide it.

You forgot that Montagliani threatened to pull all 3 teams from MLS if there wasn't a solution to this. This lead to MLS coming up with HG or Generation Addidas...(feel free to correct me).

Not much the CSA can do about it besides building it's own structure and potentially pulling it's assets with the complicity of CONCACAF. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Ansem

[Unnamed Trialist]

52 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You forgot that Montagliani threatened to pull all 3 teams from MLS if there wasn't a solution to this. This lead to MLS coming up with HG or Generation Addidas...(feel free to correct me).

Not much the CSA can do about it besides building it's own structure and potentially pulling it's assets with the complicity of CONCACAF. 

The same way Fury got an ultimatum, the Canadian MLS teams should be advised their Americans will be treated like Canadian players in the States if there is not reciprocity by a certain year. Say for the 2022 season. 

USL had no problem doing this for Canadians when we had even a smaller proportion of USL clubs in that league. There is no legal basis for not doing it in MLS, no statement by US soccer they'd oppose it, and no serious argument that it would cut into too many spots for Americans and damage MLS as a core league for th USMNT. 

[Shway]

3 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The same way Fury got an ultimatum, the Canadian MLS teams should be advised their Americans will be treated like Canadian players in the States if there is not reciprocity by a certain year. Say for the 2022 season. 

USL had no problem doing this for Canadians when we had even a smaller proportion of USL clubs in that league. There is no legal basis for not doing it in MLS, no statement by US soccer they'd oppose it, and no serious argument that it would cut into too many spots for Americans and damage MLS as a core league for th USMNT. 

I've said this exact same thing, even with the green card rule. Americans will cite US labour laws, but I've been calling bull$hit for how quickly these rules can change when things change. 

[Ansem]

18 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The same way Fury got an ultimatum, the Canadian MLS teams should be advised their Americans will be treated like Canadian players in the States if there is not reciprocity by a certain year. Say for the 2022 season. 

I think they can only do that on Canadian soil.

I'm not convinced they care about Canadians being domestics except for themselves as that gives them an advantage over the others US clubs for Canadian talents (granted they've mishandled the management of it quite spectacularly)

 

[narduch]

Considering how few Americans are on Whitecaps and Impact, the CSA could easily implement a rule where Americans are no longer domestic for Canadian MLS teams.

They would only be fucking over Team America, I mean TFC.

[RS]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The same way Fury got an ultimatum, the Canadian MLS teams should be advised their Americans will be treated like Canadian players in the States if there is not reciprocity by a certain year. Say for the 2022 season. 

USL had no problem doing this for Canadians when we had even a smaller proportion of USL clubs in that league. There is no legal basis for not doing it in MLS, no statement by US soccer they'd oppose it, and no serious argument that it would cut into too many spots for Americans and damage MLS as a core league for th USMNT. 

There may be no statement by US soccer, but it's absolutely the USSF behind the ruling.

MLS doesn't care about domestic quotas. If anything, no quotas would be great for the league (but terrible for U.S. and Canadian players).

[Watchmen]

12 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

Ultimately, this is the only sort of authority that FIFA has.  They can't actually prevent new soccer leagues from forming in whatever fashion they want, or prevent any player that wants to from signing with them. 

What they CAN do though is not allow any player affiliated with these rogue/non-compliant leagues to play in FIFA competitions.  You only mention club competitions but FIFA has the added hammer of operating the biggest and most popular single sport event in the world.  And for most players - including all of the elite players that would be on teams interested in a "super league" - that is a very significant lever. 

Bringing this back to MLS, if FIFA chooses to challenge things (and again, not advocating for this - just discussing the dynamics of it) this is important because a lot of USMNT ply their trade in MLS.

You know what's also a significant lever? $$$$$$$$$$$$$

You can say players wouldn't go just for the money, because they'd still want to compete in the World Cup.  But you know what?  I've been watching Canadian NBA players decide they'd rather not play for team Canada and just stay with their NBA teams over the summer rather than try to get Canada to the Olympics (the other massive sports organization and the pinnacle of international basketball).

Ultimately, I can see the billionaire owners of the super rich/elite clubs just saying F*** it, through massive amount of money at players to play in their super league, and FIFA and UEFA 100% capitulating to them because they still want the best players in the world in their tournaments (because they don't make their own insane amounts of money without them, and they sure as hell aren't sharing it with the players).  I mean, we're not there yet.  But one day...

[dyslexic nam]

5 hours ago, Watchmen said:

You know what's also a significant lever? $$$$$$$$$$$$$

You can say players wouldn't go just for the money, because they'd still want to compete in the World Cup.  But you know what?  I've been watching Canadian NBA players decide they'd rather not play for team Canada and just stay with their NBA teams over the summer rather than try to get Canada to the Olympics (the other massive sports organization and the pinnacle of international basketball).

Ultimately, I can see the billionaire owners of the super rich/elite clubs just saying F*** it, through massive amount of money at players to play in their super league, and FIFA and UEFA 100% capitulating to them because they still want the best players in the world in their tournaments (because they don't make their own insane amounts of money without them, and they sure as hell aren't sharing it with the players).  I mean, we're not there yet.  But one day...

 Comparing Olympic basketball to the World Cup seems pretty... wrong.  NBA players already play in the worlds best competition.   Going to the Olympics, where team America wins every single year, is a fun bonus for some, but not remotely like the WC.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

56 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

 Comparing Olympic basketball to the World Cup seems pretty... wrong.  NBA players already play in the worlds best competition.   Going to the Olympics, where team America wins every single year, is a fun bonus for some, but not remotely like the WC.  

Since the US started losing FIBA World Cups they take it more seriously, most years. It didn't help to lose a WC at home. And the Olympics go with that. This summer I bet most of the major stars will go because they were terribly embarrassed at the last WC. 

I think the overall vision of players could be changing, as they understand there is more to the legacy, and since many may never win an NBA ring, the Olympics is at least a medal.

What happens with Canadian basketball is shameful, even players from other nations who do compete for their countries are amazed we care so little.

[dyslexic nam]

1 minute ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Since the US started losing FIBA World Cups they take it more seriously, most years. It didn't help to lose a WC at home. And the Olympics go with that. This summer I bet most of the major stars will go because they were terribly embarrassed at the last WC. 

I think the overall vision of players could be changing, as they understand there is more to the legacy, and since many may never win an NBA ring, the Olympics is at least a medal.

What happens with Canadian basketball is shameful, even players from other nations who do compete for their countries are amazed we care so little.

Fair enough.  But comparing the willingness of Canadian players to skip the Olympics and the interest of soccer players to play in the WC still seems wrong (which was my main point). 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

Fair enough.  But comparing the willingness of Canadian players to skip the Olympics and the interest of soccer players to play in the WC still seems wrong (which was my main point). 

You are 100% right, no player would even want to miss a WC in soccer. 

[BuzzAndSting]

14 hours ago, narduch said:

Considering how few Americans are on Whitecaps and Impact, the CSA could easily implement a rule where Americans are no longer domestic for Canadian MLS teams.

They would only be ******* over Team America, I mean TFC.

[dyslexic nam]

10 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You are 100% right, no player would even want to miss a WC in soccer. 

For the record, we are thinking about heading to Victoria in June to watch Canada’s bball Olympic qualifiers against China and Greece.  Seems like there is less fence sitting this cycle by some of our NBA guys.