CPL new teams speculation

[Unnamed Trialist]

Just now, dyslexic nam said:

For the record, we are thinking about heading to Victoria in June to watch Canada’s bball Olympic qualifiers against China and Greece.  Seems like there is less fence sitting this cycle by some of our NBA guys.  

I think Nurse has been working on it a bit, last summer he had too little time to set things up. 

Then you have the situation at Raptors with Gasol winning both NBA and Worlds and the coach being Scariolo, the assistant at Raptors. So there is buzz there. Gasol has come out and wondered why the Canadian players don't support their national program, sort of berating them for the lack of committment. 

Imagine, though, Spain won the World's without Ibaka, Mirotic, Pau injured. The team only had 4 NBA players, and only three were starters. Teammates of Canadians in Europe like Kevin Pangos getting less club minutes than he does were starting for Spain. What matters is committment to the project and passion to really do something.

[Watchmen]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You are 100% right, no player would even want to miss a WC in soccer. 

Players retire from international soccer. Some players play for countries that never have a hope of making it. Others would 100% drop playing at the WC for enough money. But ultimately, I 100% believe FIFA would change its rules and allow any players from a super league to play in a WC. They're too corrupt and care more about anything that might hurt them financially (ie the possibility of the best players in the world not participating) than about what's actually best for the sport.

And please note, I'm not saying this super league is good or bad. That's not my argument here. Just that I don't think Fifa's "rules" matter as much as others do.

[Watchmen]

4 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

 Comparing Olympic basketball to the World Cup seems pretty... wrong.  NBA players already play in the worlds best competition.   Going to the Olympics, where team America wins every single year, is a fun bonus for some, but not remotely like the WC.  

NHL players play in the world's best competition too, and it hasn't stopped them from wanting to play in the Olympics (and being absolutely furious at Bettman not going/using it as a CBA bargaining chip).

[dyslexic nam]

32 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

NHL players play in the world's best competition too, and it hasn't stopped them from wanting to play in the Olympics (and being absolutely furious at Bettman not going/using it as a CBA bargaining chip).

Yes, I agree.  Most athletes want to compete at the Olympics as they recognize it is a prestigious competition they want to be part of - just like the World Cup for soccer.  Your NHL example supports the idea of athletes' desire to play in these sorts of competitions - which is counter to your initial point.  The fact that basketball players in some subset of countries don't seem to feel this way about the Olympics (again, where the US is the presumptive winner so other countries are basically playing for silver) in no way supports the idea that soccer players will happily pass up the chance to play at a WC - which was your original point.

" Players retire from international soccer. "

- Yes, but not usually while they are still playing at the highest levels of soccer (ie. for those kinds of super elite clubs that would be part of a super league).

" Some players play for countries that never have a hope of making it. "

- Yes, but generally not those that play for the elite super clubs. Look at the rosters of Barca, RM, Chelsea, Juve. etc.  Most of those guys are fixtures at the WC.

" Others would 100% drop playing at the WC for enough money."

- This may be true, but it is predicated on the idea that the clubs would get absolutely ridiculous amounts of extra money to throw at players in a way that would massively increase their current wages.  And given the huge revenues they already enjoy (including preferential shares of TV money, Champion's League money, etc) I am not sure participation in a super league would let them pay so much that players would walk away from the most prestigious cup competition in the world. Don't forget, participation in a super league means they wouldn't get existing CL revenue streams and could very well be excluded from national leagues (giving that money away as well).

"FIFA would change its rules and allow any players from a super league to play in a WC... {since) they're too corrupt and care more about anything that might hurt them financially"

- I also think you are way oversimplifying things.  Yes, FIFA would allow players to play if they stood to lose a ton of money because they excluded the best players in the word.  But a lot of questionable assumptions are built into that "if-then" scenario.  Players might not back the clubs seeking to do this  if things came to a standoff, knowing that FIFA would at least try to exclude them from the WC. 

There is a reason this hasn't happened in the 20+ years clubs have been threatening it. More specifically, I suspect there are many good reasons.

[Watchmen]

In a move that's at least partially related to what we've been talking about: The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) has very definitely ruled that the US (and Australia) are unique in the sport. Specifically, that FIFA never intended the promotion/relegation principle to apply in these countries and that closed leagues can be allowed. If CAS is confirming that a closed circuit league is allowed in North America, I'm sure the 3 Canadian MLS clubs would have a strong case to say they can stay in it.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/major-league-soccer/story/4049041/mls-gets-favourable-promotion-relegation-ruling-from-cas

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

In a move that's at least partially related to what we've been talking about: The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) has very definitely ruled that the US (and Australia) are unique in the sport. Specifically, that FIFA never intended the promotion/relegation principle to apply in these countries and that closed leagues can be allowed. If CAS is confirming that a closed circuit league is allowed in North America, I'm sure the 3 Canadian MLS clubs would have a strong case to say they can stay in it.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/major-league-soccer/story/4049041/mls-gets-favourable-promotion-relegation-ruling-from-cas

Orange and apples.

The organization/structure of the league was being challenged, not Article 73.

Also, the ruling reinforced that FIFA can pretty much do whatever they like in the way they interpret their own rules and that CAS won't be in their way.

Whenever FIFA decides to enforce it in North America in regards to the 3, (when the waiver is expired and they will need to reapply), nothing can be done about it.

[Watchmen]

4 hours ago, Ansem said:

Orange and apples.

The organization/structure of the league was being challenged, not Article 73.

Also, the ruling reinforced that FIFA can pretty much do whatever they like in the way they interpret their own rules and that CAS won't be in their way.

Whenever FIFA decides to enforce it in North America in regards to the 3, (when the waiver is expired and they will need to reapply), nothing can be done about it.

I think it's more the importance of the region being recognized as "unique", which this ruling does.  With multiple other examples of major leagues in NA being intertwined (NHL, NBA, MLB), there's probably a solid basis for CAS to rule in MLS's favour.  Assuming FIFA/CONCACAF decided not to renew any waivers.  Just like how MLS never wants their "option" year contracts actually challenged by CAS (see: Camillo and Larin), FIFA/CONCACAF may not be eager to see Article 73 actually challenged either.  Much, much easier to just extend the waiver on this situation.

[Ansem]

4 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I think it's more the importance of the region being recognized as "unique", which this ruling does.  With multiple other examples of major leagues in NA being intertwined (NHL, NBA, MLB), there's probably a solid basis for CAS to rule in MLS's favour.  Assuming FIFA/CONCACAF decided not to renew any waivers.  Just like how MLS never wants their "option" year contracts actually challenged by CAS (see: Camillo and Larin), FIFA/CONCACAF may not be eager to see Article 73 actually challenged either.  Much, much easier to just extend the waiver on this situation.

I really dont get how you make the leap that this ruling somehow guarantees that FIFA will back extending the waivers. CONCACAF certainly hasn't indicate that it's leaning that way at all.

-The clubs' case cited a sub-section of FIFA statutes stating "a club's entitlement to take part in a domestic league championship shall depend principally on sporting merit." The FIFA article also notes participation "may be subject to other criteria."

That's the little bit that got Silva's claim thrown out as FIFA decided to use this to justify not enforcing this rule. His claim was flawed anyhow as he was trying to force his way into MLS which started as a closed league, not a pro/rel league that broke away to closed itself. That's the huge difference here.

If you look at what happened in lower US division, nothing prevents USL to get their standards upgraded and apply for a D1 status just like they did when applying for a D2 status when the NASL was still around. Meeting all the USSF criteria for D1 and still being denied could have gave him an antitrust case against MLS/SUM/USSF. But hey, I get it, it costs way more and is way more complicated than hoping FIFA does the bidding for you, which didn't happen.

This has nothing to do with Article 73 which FIFA has been enforcing consistently AND in Canada/US aka Ottawa Fury. We can't even qualify to CCL via the league contrarily to Monaco and the Welsh clubs...what does that tell you? How "integrated" are we really with MLS/USSF if the whole deal is possible thanks to waivers? Canadians aren't even domestics across the board but you're arguing we should get the "North American league exception" when our roster rules are not the same like the NA other leagues.

This is where that "argument" doesn't hold for me. We're "glorified guests" in that league, nowhere near fully integrated like the Welsh Clubs, Monaco or Canadian teams in North American leagues.

 

[Ansem]

Lyon was interested but changed their mind and won't invest in CPL.

 

[ted]

On 2/7/2020 at 9:39 AM, Watchmen said:

...I don't think Fifa's "rules" matter as much as others do.

Give your head a shake. FIFA is the most powerful sporting organization on the planet. The IOC bows before them. Nations bribe them to host events and suspend laws to favour them.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

Lyon was interested but changed their mind and won't invest in CPL.

Well first, they do say they idea is partially postponed. It could always be revived. Maybe they need a stronger local ownership deal and a more consolidated structure, which they got by buying Seattle Reign.

The bit about Tony Parker is a bit odd, he is majority owner of ASVEL Lyon-Villeurbanne which is in Euroleague, I think there may be some alliance with OL, but not sure what. Don't see how that is relevant to the CPL or soccer in North America.

 

[Ansem]

15 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Well first, they do say they idea is partially postponed. It could always be revived. Maybe they need a stronger local ownership deal and a more consolidated structure, which they got by buying Seattle Reign.

The bit about Tony Parker is a bit odd, he is majority owner of ASVEL Lyon-Villeurbanne which is in Euroleague, I think there may be some alliance with OL, but not sure what. Don't see how that is relevant to the CPL or soccer in North America.

 

Yes the reporting is being challenged as the subject seems clearly to be about Basketball and not soccer 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, Ansem said:

Yes the reporting is being challenged as the subject seems clearly to be about Basketball and not soccer 

Well thanks, that really clears it up in that regard. They are talking about an NBA franchise, which is kind of wild--I don't think Olympique has that kind of money.

There were rumours about Montreal looking at an NBA team, which came out during the playoffs last year: https://nba.nbcsports.com/2019/05/31/adam-silver-once-again-throws-cold-water-on-idea-of-nba-expansion-anytime-soon/

Probably Seattle would be the first team to pick up a franchise that is not working now.

This basketball focus  suggests that perhaps the whole CPL speculation is intact, OL and Roma are perhaps looking at possibilities. That is what we heard, this article does not negate the rumour. 

[BuzzAndSting]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Well thanks, that really clears it up in that regard. They are talking about an NBA franchise, which is kind of wild--I don't think Olympique has that kind of money.

There were rumours about Montreal looking at an NBA team, which came out during the playoffs last year: https://nba.nbcsports.com/2019/05/31/adam-silver-once-again-throws-cold-water-on-idea-of-nba-expansion-anytime-soon/

Probably Seattle would be the first team to pick up a franchise that is not working now.

This basketball focus  suggests that perhaps the whole CPL speculation is intact, OL and Roma are perhaps looking at possibilities. That is what we heard, this article does not negate the rumour. 

Admittedly I didn’t read anything but they were considering a team in the NBA?! I assumed it was CEBL.

[Watchmen]

8 hours ago, ted said:

Give your head a shake. FIFA is the most powerful sporting organization on the planet. The IOC bows before them. Nations bribe them to host events and suspend laws to favour them.

 

1) I'm going to keep coming back to it: FIFA is utterly corrupt, and they will bend the knee to whoever has the most money.  If a group of billionaire owners decides that they want a breakaway super league and are willing to fund it, FIFA will 100% cave to them.

2) Nations have bribed the IOC before to host events and willingly suspended laws to favour them.

[Watchmen]

18 hours ago, Ansem said:

I really dont get how you make the leap that this ruling somehow guarantees that FIFA will back extending the waivers. CONCACAF certainly hasn't indicate that it's leaning that way at all.

-The clubs' case cited a sub-section of FIFA statutes stating "a club's entitlement to take part in a domestic league championship shall depend principally on sporting merit." The FIFA article also notes participation "may be subject to other criteria."

That's the little bit that got Silva's claim thrown out as FIFA decided to use this to justify not enforcing this rule. His claim was flawed anyhow as he was trying to force his way into MLS which started as a closed league, not a pro/rel league that broke away to closed itself. That's the huge difference here.

If you look at what happened in lower US division, nothing prevents USL to get their standards upgraded and apply for a D1 status just like they did when applying for a D2 status when the NASL was still around. Meeting all the USSF criteria for D1 and still being denied could have gave him an antitrust case against MLS/SUM/USSF. But hey, I get it, it costs way more and is way more complicated than hoping FIFA does the bidding for you, which didn't happen.

This has nothing to do with Article 73 which FIFA has been enforcing consistently AND in Canada/US aka Ottawa Fury. We can't even qualify to CCL via the league contrarily to Monaco and the Welsh clubs...what does that tell you? How "integrated" are we really with MLS/USSF if the whole deal is possible thanks to waivers? Canadians aren't even domestics across the board but you're arguing we should get the "North American league exception" when our roster rules are not the same like the NA other leagues.

This is where that "argument" doesn't hold for me. We're "glorified guests" in that league, nowhere near fully integrated like the Welsh Clubs, Monaco or Canadian teams in North American leagues.

 

How about Wellington Phoenix?  Can that meet your argument?  New Zealand has it's own league.  Wellington can't qualify for any continental competitions via the A-League.  Like the MLS teams, I'm willing to bet they keep getting exemptions.

[Ansem]

50 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

How about Wellington Phoenix?  Can that meet your argument?  New Zealand has it's own league.  Wellington can't qualify for any continental competitions via the A-League

Well Wellington can't qualify for AFC Champions league because they are members of OFC.

52 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Like the MLS teams, I'm willing to bet they keep getting exemptions.

Again, different set of circumstances 

[shamrock]

4 hours ago, Watchmen said:

How about Wellington Phoenix?  Can that meet your argument?  New Zealand has it's own league.  Wellington can't qualify for any continental competitions via the A-League.  Like the MLS teams, I'm willing to bet they keep getting exemptions.

The NZ Premier league was founded after Wellington joined the A-league. My guess is when (if) the NZPL grows in importance Phoenix will get out of the A-league voluntarily. It's not that they own a share in the league itself as a cash train like the Canadian teams in MLS. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, BuzzAndSting said:

Admittedly I didn’t read anything but they were considering a team in the NBA?! I assumed it was CEBL.

Really? That's a lower level than a team playing Euroleague. 

[Ed_S]

Thanks for all the info on the NBA, various other basketball entities and NZ football clubs. How far back do I have to scroll to find CPL new teams speculation??

[Watchmen]

4 hours ago, Ed_S said:

Thanks for all the info on the NBA, various other basketball entities and NZ football clubs. How far back do I have to scroll to find CPL new teams speculation??

30 days.  

[ted]

On 2/8/2020 at 8:56 PM, Watchmen said:

1) I'm going to keep coming back to it: FIFA is utterly corrupt, and they will bend the knee to whoever has the most money. 

What does that have to do with your statement that, "Fifa's "rules" matter as much as others do"?

Of course they are corrupt and have made decisions that are based on money. That's the not the point you made nor the one I am challenging.

Regardless of how the rules are constructed, once FIFA has made them, they matter very much.  When they choose to enforce them, no league or national FA can stand in their way. 

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, ted said:

Regardless of how the rules are constructed, once FIFA has made them, they matter very much.  When they choose to enforce them, no league or national FA can stand in their way. 

With Montagliani in charge of CONCACAF, he must be have a countdown clock on his desk on when the waiver expires. 😂

I think it's inevitable that CPL will be in Toronto, Montreal & Vancouver, one way or another. At least with not renewing the exemption, the 3 MLS owners could try to hold on to their city monopoly.

If somehow the 3 MLS teams are to stay, CPL will enter the cities by opening up expansion to an ownership or partition the cities by "area" or "borough" for D2 expansions. I was listening to Premier Podcast and he's right on one point as I know Montreal. Someone could make the d--k move of putting a team downtown or Molson stadium and that team would get immediate attention.

 

But anyways, I think that CPL is just waiting the waiver out and will decide what to do next based on CONCACAF action or inaction

Edited February 10, 2020 by Ansem

[shamrock]

Canadian MLS teams have invested heavily in MLS not just their teams in but in the league itself. No way they are voluntarily giving that up. Best case scenario they could sell their stake in MLS but again, who's going to compensate them?

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, shamrock said:

Canadian MLS teams have invested heavily in MLS not just their teams in but in the league itself. No way they are voluntarily giving that up. Best case scenario they could sell their stake in MLS but again, who's going to compensate them?

They entered MLS with $10M-$35M-$40M respectively. Selling their franchise would get them back several times that initiate value.  (TFC is now valued at close to $250M with an initial $10M entry fee.)

They most likely wouldn't walk away wounded one bit.