CPL new teams speculation

[Impactsupporter]

Then what about Lyon de Quebec, colors blue and buff yellow, lion in the crest??

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

As long as foreign groups partners with local investors, I dont really see an issue with it.

As for the name....got to make sense. I get Atletico Ottawa but naming another city by adding "Roma" is just silly.

Lyon could just have "Olympique" in front of Quebec and that would be accepted like "Olympique de Quebec or Olympique Quebecois"

Olympique is actually patented by the International Olympic Committee, the only entities that can still use the name are those that were around long before the IOC started to defend the brand. So I wonder if that is a problem for this kind of naming. 

At Madrid has a specific problem, which is that of the twenty strongest teams in Europe, they have one of the least valuable shirts, I think they get 25 million a year for it. So they really need to expand the brand with that name, and look to other markets to do so. I am not sure all teams would have the same strategy. The City group does not always brand a team with their name, Girona, for example, has had no name adjustment at all. 

By the way, I read that Atlético signed an agreement for the stadium of San Luis that lasts almost ten years, this came up because the current stadium owner has just announced he wants to sell it. So that suggests that At Madrid might also sign a long agreement for TD Place. The one thing we have to ensure when any foreign entity comes in is that their agreement with the league is long, and there are penalizations for leaving, and that their stadium leases are also long, with similar penalizations, for the same reason.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

This is what is happening with their NWSL team:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MLS/comments/ewnexv/ol_reign_logo_and_name_trademarked_by_the_nwsl/

[Ams1984]

14 hours ago, narduch said:

I'm not sure the IOC allows new companies to use words associated with 'Olympic' anymore.

I’m not disputing what you’re saying, frankly I don’t know whether it’s true. I would find it surprising however; in my opinion it would be hard for an organization to trademark a word that has centuries of general usage stemming from antiquity. It would be like Athletic Bilbao trademarking the word “athletic” in and of itself. They could probably trademark that combination of words, but I doubt they could trademark the word “athletic”. It would be tough to enforce a trademark against a club owned by “Olympique Lyonnaise” who called themselves “Olympique Quebec” for example. The reason is that that combination of words in the soccer industry, relating to a club owned by a similarly branded club, are extremely unlikely to cause the requisite confusion in the eyes of customers. It’s very unlikely than anyone who is a sports fan (and more specifically a soccer fan) would accidentally associate Olympique Quebec FC with the IOC. 
 

 

[m-g-williams]

15 hours ago, Impactsupporter said:

Then what about Lyon de Quebec, colors blue and buff yellow, lion in the crest??

 

That wouldn't really make sense, naming it after the city. It'd be like having a team named the Montreal Torontos or the Calgary Vancouvers. 

[narduch]

The will probably just call it OL Quebec and have a lion in the crest. 

[Andrew W]

On 2/1/2020 at 4:41 PM, nfitz said:

No love for Wrexham or Merthyr Town?

Absolutely not! 

[ted]

On 2/2/2020 at 8:02 AM, Impactsupporter said:

Where would this Fraser Valley team play in Surrey or Langley.  (Suggested name just a thought Valley FC)

What is this group working on a D2??  Who (which areas) in BC would be in this D2?

If they knew where they were gonna play the Fraser Valley Team would have been announced already. That is the hold up but I expect they will sort it out for next year.

The D2 rumours have been around for a while and my sources confirm they are real and we may see some things happening this summer to test the waters. I can't say who exactly (promised confidentiality) but for general areas it is the usual suspects.

[Initial B]

On 1/31/2020 at 7:55 PM, Ansem said:

Post 2030

-Toronto, Montreal & Vancouver expansion due to CONCACAF ending MLS sanction in Canada

You had me agreeing with you up to this point. For reasons I have stated earlier, this isn't going to happen. By post 2030, MLS is going to be one of the top 10 leagues in the world and the gap in skill between MLS and CanPL is still going to be there. Also, there's no way those teams step off the SUM gravy train and there is no way CONCACAF or FIFA are going to open the cross-national-team bag of worms with global ramifications.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Initial B said:

By post 2030, MLS is going to be one of the top 10 leagues in the world

Doubtful. Don't fall in the same trap that most MLS fans do...

• MLS growth is undeniable...but everyone else will keep growing too, not stagnate

1 hour ago, Initial B said:

the gap in skill between MLS and CanPL is still going to be there.

Just like

• Norwich & Liverpool
• Paderborn & Bayern Munich
• Real Madrid & Espanyol
• Juventus & SPAL
• PSG & Toulouse

Forced parity is the exception in football, not the norm. FIFA/CONCACAF are unlikely to be phased by that argument

1 hour ago, Initial B said:

there's no way those teams step off the SUM gravy train

Not their decision to make and may I remind you, most MLS teams have been losing money including SUM gravy train. I hope their new TV contract is substantially higher to support what they have plan for the future.

1 hour ago, Initial B said:

no way CONCACAF or FIFA are going to open the cross-national-team bag of worms with global ramifications.

Adopting the Status quo opens a MUCH BIGGER bag of worms with MUCH WORSE global ramifications.

If that waiver expires and the 3 MLS clubs are granted sanctioning in MLS, how fast do you think Real Madrid, Chelsea, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, PSG, Manchester or Liverpool will use this precedent to challenge FIFA on creating their Super League???

Right now, it`s mostly Article 73 of FIFA Statute that is preventing them from doing this.

Sorry but 3 Canadian clubs and an American league is NOT high enough on the pecking order to cause FIFA to risk this scenario.  There needs to be an awareness of our importance in the FIFA world, this isn't NHL vs. IIHF

Edited February 3, 2020 by Ansem

[narduch]

1 hour ago, Initial B said:

 By post 2030, MLS is going to be one of the top 10 leagues in the world

Ok Garber. 

Seriously though. That's not going to happen unless the TV ratings increase substantially on the domestic side.  

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, narduch said:

Ok Garber. 

Seriously though. That's not going to happen unless the TV ratings increase substantially on the domestic side.  

Funny thing is that even if they convince TV network to "make it rain", won't matter that much if they can't cut their addictions for expansion. The TV money per team will drop as they accept more teams into the league.

Lots of MLS fans were laughing at China pulling the reign on spending crazy money on internationals and imposing a cap while saying "Super League is no longer a comparable competition"

My analysis is that they saw that it was simply unsustainable to pay that kind of money without the TV and attendance numbers...while it did little to make China an Asian giant. But hey, keep distributing the green cards and overpaying for talent MLS... Go nuts!

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Ansem

[narduch]

32 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Funny thing is that even if they convince TV network to "make it rain", won't matter that much if they can't cut their addictions for expansion. The TV money per team will drop as they accept more teams into the league.

Lots of MLS fans were laughing at China pulling the reign on spending crazy money on internationals and imposing a cap while saying "Super League is no longer a comparable competition"

My analysis is that they saw that it was simply unsustainable to pay that kind of money without the TV and attendance numbers...while it did little to make China an Asian giant. But hey, keep distributing the green cards and overpaying for talent MLS... Go nuts!

 

I think if they cut the league down to its 20 best markets they could have a chance.

But not with this current monstrosity of a league.

[dyslexic nam]

39 minutes ago, narduch said:

I think if they cut the league down to its 20 best markets they could have a chance.

But not with this current monstrosity of a league.

They have basically done what the other US/NA sport leagues have done.

MLS - 26 teams

MLB - 30

NBA - 30

NHL - 31

They clearly feel that there is a sweet spot in terms of league membership.  Below it and you may not be realizing the full economic benefit, and above it and you risk watering down league quality too much.

But the substantial difference is that MLS is not a world class league.  The other 3 are the pinnacle pro leagues in each of their respective sports.  That means that they capture the attention not just of NA-based sports fans, but from fans around the globe.  MLS faces the challenge that it is nothing like those other leagues in terms of budgets or reach, so it remains to be seen if it can continue to grow at its current pace while sustaining that many teams. 

I think there is definitely a chance that it will be a top 5 or 6 league at some point.  Americans are known for the rabid patriotism that would make them want to believe that MLS is the best in the world.  And the more people that think that way, the more money flows into the league.  This scenario is why I am glad we have 3 teams in already.  They could, potentially, be truly massive clubs in a decade or two.  But there is also the real possibility that MLS hits a ceiling and fails to convert footy fans interested in the highest calibre of play. 

Will be interesting to see it play out. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by dyslexic nam

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Initial B said:

You had me agreeing with you up to this point. For reasons I have stated earlier, this isn't going to happen. By post 2030, MLS is going to be one of the top 10 leagues in the world and the gap in skill between MLS and CanPL is still going to be there. Also, there's no way those teams step off the SUM gravy train and there is no way CONCACAF or FIFA are going to open the cross-national-team bag of worms with global ramifications.

I agree with this, there is a lot of delusional posting going on here. The whole N American market is based on exceptionality, and so is the CPL. Every other football country has an open promotion-relegation system, and dozens of teams in it, at least. Guatemala has a serious proper system. We don't. 

You can't argue that the CPL is going to move the paradigm towards the redundance of MLS in Canada, it does not have that power or reach, and the MLS clubs will simply adjust accordingly. The best we are going to get is CPL teams in similar but not identical markets (Laval, Fraser Valley), drawing a third of the MLS club, and specific publics for each, even a bit of crossover. 

Now if we start to see CPL teams drawing in the area of CFL teams, then things might change, but I am not sure we are anywhere near that,, not even half that. 

CPL I do think will push the MLS teams to be more responsive to Canadian players (something we are already seeing at Whitecaps at least), and to results, knowing they cannot coast. 

[narduch]

19 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

They have basically done what the other US/NA sport leagues have done.

MLS - 26 teams

MLB - 30

NBA - 30

NHL - 31

They clearly feel that there is a sweet spot in terms of league membership.  Below it and you may not be realizing the full economic benefit, and above it and you risk watering down league quality too much.

But the substantial difference is that MLS is not a world class league.  The other 3 are the pinnacle pro leagues in each of their respective sports.  That means that they capture the attention not just of NA-based sports fans, but from fans around the globe.  MLS faces the challenge that it is nothing like those other leagues in terms of budgets or reach, so it remains to be seen if it can continue to grow at its current pace while sustaining that many teams. 

I think there is definitely a chance that it will be a top 5 or 6 league at some point.  Americans are known for the rabid patriotism that would make them want to believe that MLS is the best in the world.  And the more people that think that way, the more money flows into the league.  This scenario is why I am glad we have 3 teams in already.  They could, potentially, be truly massive clubs in a decade or two.  But there is also the real possibility that MLS hits a ceiling and fails to convert footy fans interested in the highest calibre of play. 

Will be interesting to see it play out. 

My theory is that they are aiming for a 36 team league a la USL Championship. Split conferences that never face each other.

[youllneverwalkalone]

That would suggest a level of forethought and planning that does not compute for me re: MLS

[Ansem]

55 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The whole N American market is based on exceptionality, and so is the CPL.

How so? The only "exceptionality" is that Canada had no functional pyramid/top leagues which allowed teams to be sanctioned in USSF league. As Canada finally getting serious at building it, that "exceptionality clause" under Article 73 becomes "VOID"

CONCACAF said so in the Fury case

https://www.concacaf.com/en/article/concacaf-statement-12-13

•  A further written correspondence to the CSA followed in November, providing guidance on our view that as it stands to date, we do not see exceptional circumstances, given the launch of the Canadian Premier League (CPL) for the 2019 season. 

MLS teams have a waiver preventing them from reapplying yearly. Once this waiver expires, they will be facing the same scenario as Ottawa and will be at the mercy of CONCACAF

55 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You can't argue that the CPL is going to move the paradigm towards the redundance of MLS in Canada, it does not have that power or reach, and the MLS clubs will simply adjust accordingly.

CPL doesn't need to do much, just make sure that they keep growing their businesses and grow everywhere else where MLS is absent, pretty much everyone knows that the sanctioning issue will have to be address sooner rather than later. They are simply waiting it out.

If CONCACAF & FIFA surprisingly move to extend it, than yes, you will be right. (Expect the CSA to sanction them so they let the bodies above them do the dirty work for them like with the Fury) but then FIFA will have huge difficulties stopping the world's most powerful clubs from having their Super League. They aren't going to care about the "exceptionality of the North American market", they'll want the exact same thing.

However, if CONCACAF denies them, then 2 things happens

3 cities are up for grab for a CPL expansion

1. Former MLS owners who sold their franchise and restart clubs in CPL
2. New owners bidding for those city to fill the vacuum

*Of course, it would be option 1

55 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

there is a lot of delusional posting going on here.

The delusion is to think that USSF/ MLS have more power than UEFA leagues and clubs, that's heresy in my book

Edited February 3, 2020 by Ansem

[Ansem]

29 minutes ago, narduch said:

My theory is that they are aiming for a 36 team league a la USL Championship. Split conferences that never face each other.

Like NFL & MLB

• Leading to a Soccer "World Series"

"Soccer World Champions" !!!

(everyone else not having soccer in the name of the league, means they wouldn't be that inaccurate)

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

How so? The only "exceptionality" is that Canada had no functional pyramid/top leagues which allowed teams to be sanctioned in USSF league. As Canada finally getting serious at building it, that "exceptionality clause" under Article 73 becomes "VOID"

CONCACAF said so in the Fury case

https://www.concacaf.com/en/article/concacaf-statement-12-13

•  A further written correspondence to the CSA followed in November, providing guidance on our view that as it stands to date, we do not see exceptional circumstances, given the launch of the Canadian Premier League (CPL) for the 2019 season. 

MLS teams have a waiver preventing them from reapplying yearly. Once this waiver expires, they will be facing the same scenario as Ottawa and will be at the mercy of CONCACAF

CPL doesn't need to do much, just make sure that they keep growing their businesses and grow everywhere else where MLS is absent, pretty much everyone knows that the sanctioning issue will have to be address sooner rather than later. They are simply waiting it out.

If CONCACAF & FIFA surprisingly move to extend it, than yes, you will be right. (Expect the CSA to sanction them so they let the bodies above them do the dirty work for them like with the Fury) but then FIFA will have huge difficulties stopping the world's most powerful clubs from having their Super League. They aren't going to care about the "exceptionality of the North American market", they'll want the exact same thing.

However, if CONCACAF denies them, then 2 things happens

3 cities are up for grab for a CPL expansion

1. Former MLS owners who sold their franchise and restart clubs in CPL
2. New owners bidding for those city to fill the vacuum

*Of course, it would be option 1

The delusion is to think that USSF/ MLS have more power than UEFA leagues and clubs, that's heresy in my book

To be brief, your post shows you (and too many people here) understand too little about the history of pro soccer in Canada and the US.

And about the radical concessions FIFA has made historically and continues to make in the present to ensure the game grows here.  FIFA has broken all the rules to get the game into the USA and consolidated (Canada they care much less about), and will continue to do so, probably indefinitely. While in a continent like Europe where the game is more than consolidated, they and UEFA will never  ever allow rogue competitions to emerge. They will always be assimilated into their rules and model.

As for arguing that Canada is anything but a freak outlier in world soccer--I just sigh reading these posts.

We are perhaps, in terms of economy and population, the most glaring freak weirdo nation in the world in this sport. You can't take a 10 months of Canada behaving normally and rewrite history. We have not even behaved normally yet, in fact: not even Andorra has something as flimsy as a 7 team unbalanced league with a single division (their first division has 8 teams, the second 10, and they have promotion and relegation--for 40,000 population). We have behaved very badly for the previous decades, century even, we are very far from being able to dictate to anyone, least of all to massively larger MLS clubs.

People here think you get out on parole after an extended life sentence, behave properly for a few months (and not really), and then you should be treated as if you were living amongst real humans in a civilised society. In soccer, in Canada, it is still not the case. We are still seeing our parole officer weekly, wearing our tamper-resistent bracelet and peeing in a cup, in football terms.

 

[Ansem]

38 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

To be brief, your post shows you (and too many people here) understand too little about the history of pro soccer in Canada and the US.

You dont seem to see that the history of pro "soccer" here is insignificant to the history of football elsewhere. They are unlikely to care about it but I get it, we're too used to be at the heart of every other sports and aren't use to be second tier but in this instance we are.

Why would they enforce their rules on UEFA over us?

38 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

And about the radical concessions FIFA has made historically and continues to make in the present to ensure the game grows here.  FIFA has broken all the rules to get the game into the USA and consolidated (Canada they care much less about), and will continue to do so, probably indefinitely. While in a continent like Europe where the game is more than consolidated, they and UEFA will never  ever allow rogue competitions to emerge. They will always be assimilated into their rules and model.

Outside of awarding a world cup without a league (which Canada wanted to do when bidding for 1986) I'd like to know which radical concessions you're referring too.

By not enforcing the core of their rules everywhere, you're creating a "precedent" which UEFA clubs would be more than happy to use in CAS to get what they want. FIFA has no incentive of risking this happening over the "wants" of 3 Canadian clubs (Canada they care less?) and an American league that's not a world top league.

Would losing 3 Canadian clubs turn off the average american fan to the point that it would stop the growth of soccer in the US out of outrage? 

Now who's being unrealistic?

38 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

As for arguing that Canada is anything but a freak outlier in world soccer--I just sigh reading these posts.

Which is exactly why WE aren't worth empowering UEFA clubs over. 

38 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

We are perhaps, in terms of economy and population, the most glaring freak weirdo nation in the world in this sport. You can't take a 10 months of Canada behaving normally and rewrite history.  We have behaved very badly for the previous decades, century even, we are very far from being able to dictate to anyone, least of all to massively larger MLS clubs.

So why are we so worthy of being more exceptional than the rest?

Edited February 3, 2020 by Ansem

[Unnamed Trialist]

11 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You dont seem to see that the history of pro "soccer" here is insignificant to the history of football elsewhere. They are unlikely to care about it but I get it, we're too used to be at the heart of every other sports and aren't use to be second tier but in this instance we are.

Why would they enforce their rules on UEFA over us?

Outside of awarding a world cup without a league (which Canada wanted to do when bidding for 1986) I'd like to know which radical concessions you're referring too.

Not enforcing the core of their rules everywhere, you're creating a "precedent" which UEFA clubs would be more than happy to use in CAS to get what they want. FIFA has no incentive of risking this happening over the "wants" of 3 Canadian clubs (Canada they care less?) and an American league that's not a world top league.

Would losing 3 Canadian clubs turn off the average american fan to the point that it would stop the growth of soccer in the US out of outrage? 

Now who's being unrealistic?

Which is exactly why WE aren't worth empowering UEFA clubs over. 

So why are we so worthy of being more exceptional than the rest?

All the arguments are fine, but I can assure you: North American exceptionality has never and does not now put the current system at risk in Europe. I don't even think a single club in Europe is dumb enough to start arguing that the US and MLS with three teams in Canada is a definitive precedent for breaking the national league system in Europe. 

Because the US are freaks too, just more monied and committed than Canada to the game, they will never pose a risk in terms of legal precedent. I find the whole notion convoluted, to save UEFA from a superleague that will never happen anyways, kick three Canadian teams out of MLS. But I realise it is fun to think we are really that important in Canada.

Just wanted to add, Ansem, I really do not know, I am speculating. I may be totally wrong.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Unnamed Trialist

[Ansem]

 

 

15 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

All the arguments are fine, but I can assure you: North American exceptionality has never and does not now put the current system at risk in Europe. I don't even think a single club in Europe is dumb enough to start arguing that the US and MLS with three teams in Canada is a definitive precedent for breaking the national league system in Europe. 

Because the US are freaks too, just more monied and committed than Canada to the game, they will never pose a risk in terms of legal precedent. I find the whole notion convoluted, to save UEFA from a superleague that will never happen anyways, kick three Canadian teams out of MLS. But I realise it is fun to think we are really that important in Canada.

The money is in Europe make no mistake about it. MLS simply isn't there yet

Is there potential in the US? Of course there is but you haven't demonstrated how removing 3 Canadian clubs from a US league damages their potential profits in the US

[youllneverwalkalone]

Wait, we are not the centre of the football universe right now? 

[Bison44]

Tom is not happy about his proud name being brought into this with a negative spin.  He liked kicking the god damned ball around as much as anyone.