CPL new teams speculation

[ted]

5 hours ago, shamrock said:

Canadian MLS teams have invested heavily in MLS not just their teams in but in the league itself. No way they are voluntarily giving that up. Best case scenario they could sell their stake in MLS but again, who's going to compensate them?

When you, "sell" your stake you get, "compensated " with this thing we call money. LOL

[youllneverwalkalone]

That would suck if at the end of the transaction you're left with a combination of $250,000,000 of GAM and TAM -which you can only spend in the MLS store.

[Watchmen]

10 hours ago, ted said:

What does that have to do with your statement that, "Fifa's "rules" matter as much as others do"?

Of course they are corrupt and have made decisions that are based on money. That's the not the point you made nor the one I am challenging.

Regardless of how the rules are constructed, once FIFA has made them, they matter very much.  When they choose to enforce them, no league or national FA can stand in their way. 

"When they chose to enforce them".  That's the key. And that's where their corruption sets in.  Their rules are very much subject to their own corruption.  That's my point.

[Watchmen]

9 hours ago, Ansem said:

But anyways, I think that CPL is just waiting the waiver out and will decide what to do next based on CONCACAF action or inaction

Oh ffs.  So you're willing to admit that it's entirely possible that CONCACAF will do nothing?  That's all I've been arguing.  That this whole "as soon as the waiver expires the MLS teams will have to join CPL" is utter bullsh!t because it doesn't mean that at all.

Edit: Admittedly, that's not all I've been arguing.  But that's been the crux of my point.  

Edited February 11, 2020 by Watchmen

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

Oh ffs.  So you're willing to admit that it's entirely possible that CONCACAF will do nothing?  That's all I've been arguing.  That this whole "as soon as the waiver expires the MLS teams will have to join CPL" is utter bullsh!t because it doesn't mean that at all.

Edit: Admittedly, that's not all I've been arguing.  But that's been the crux of my point.  

Who's in charge? Montagliani 

CONCACAF doing nothing is slim to none une Victor 

[shamrock]

6 hours ago, ted said:

When you, "sell" your stake you get, "compensated " with this thing we call money. LOL

And then let go all the potential profits in the future? (it's this promise MLS is built on). 

[JamboAl]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

Who's in charge? Montagliani 

CONCACAF doing nothing is slim to none une Victor 

I think forcing the 3 Canadian teams into the CPL is a totally different kettle of fish from doing that to the Fury.  You pick your battles and I don’t see CONCACAF picking a fight with MLS.

[RickC]

One thing to keep in mind about TFC is a sale of the team, even if it were to be for $250mm, wouldn't be the windfall it appears. I don't recall specific numbers but am sure TFC has lost money every year on an operating basis. Let's just say it's a loss of $5mm a year (I'm sure it's far more) that would reduce the gain from $240mm down to $140mm. Then you need to consider the $$ sunk into BMO Field, their training centre, etc. I expect it would still end up being a sizable profit but not quite the amount it would seem on the surface.

[Ansem]

6 hours ago, JamboAl said:

I think forcing the 3 Canadian teams into the CPL is a totally different kettle of fish from doing that to the Fury.  You pick your battles and I don’t see CONCACAF picking a fight with MLS.

They can't force the 3 MLS teams into CPL. I dont know what's so hard to understand about that.

They can approve or deny the sanction renewal which is very likely to be denied next time around 

This notion of FIFA being scared of MLS is truly baffling and shows a misunderstanding of what FIFA is. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Ansem

[Cblake]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

They can't force the 3 MLS teams into CPL. I dont know what's so hard to understand about that.

They can approve or deny the sanction renewal which is very likely to be denied next time around 

This notion of FIFA being scared of MLS is truly baffling and shows a misunderstanding of what FIFA is. 

I see the sanction renewal being a good thing in the CSAs eyes, as having as the the MLS teams are currently a step up from the CPL. Canadian players currently have a place to play in Canada in both the CPL and MLS depending on where they are as players. TFC has its academy and players are being signed out of it every year to first teams deals with TFCII being a stepping stone. Victor having been a part of the CSA knows first hand what role MLS has played in the advancement of player development in the country has played. As long as the US MLS teams count Canadians as internationals having the three MLS teams is big for Canadian soccer. Now if the salaries in the CPL rise etc and the type of player they sign improves then things may change. I can see some give and take on this issue like maybe the VCup rules being instituted for league play, who knows. We have seen the battle going on with the NHL and the IIHF, just do not see anyone wanting something like that in football. 

[nfitz]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

They can approve or deny the sanction renewal which is very likely to be denied next time around 

In your opinion.

I think you are 100% wrong. There's no way that CONCACAF and CSA would go that direction when there is such a massive difference in quality between the two leagues. Nor has there been any suggestion from them that they would.

Maybe in a few decades time.

Edited February 11, 2020 by nfitz

[IAmPappy]

23 minutes ago, nfitz said:

Maybe in a few decades time.

“few” = never (imho).

I keep coming back here for CPL New Team Speculation, but I might as well waddle into this conversation. 

Lots of examples have been used here, from Swansea to NZ to Monaco, to validate / counter the Cdn MLS teams. They are all different and special in their own way, but one thing they all have in common is money/budget relative to their host league.

When CPL clubs reach player budgets within ~60% of MLS clubs, we can talk. Until then, I don’t see FIFA upsetting anything. That actually applies to every other example provided on this thread, I think.

Edited February 11, 2020 by IAmPappy

[youllneverwalkalone]

[CanadaFan123]

1 hour ago, IAmPappy said:

“few” = never (imho).

I keep coming back here for CPL New Team Speculation, but I might as well waddle into this conversation. 

Lots of examples have been used here, from Swansea to NZ to Monaco, to validate / counter the Cdn MLS teams. They are all different and special in their own way, but one thing they all have in common is money/budget relative to their host league.

When CPL clubs reach player budgets within ~60% of MLS clubs, we can talk. Until then, I don’t see FIFA upsetting anything. That actually applies to every other example provided on this thread, I think.

I can see what you are saying (and agree) but I would point out that there is one major difference.  Let's take the Wellington Phoenix example, as it's closest related to our situation (i.e. no pro/rel, relatively new league etc.).  If there were 3 A-League teams in NZ, would they be allowed to join the A-League?  Or would the three be forced into the NZ league?

There is no doubt that this is most akin to our situation so it is a valid question.  I have to think that with 3 teams they would then play in the NZ league, no?  Also keep in mind that the gap between CPL and MLS is comparable to that between the NZ league and A league.  

[Ansem]

18 hours ago, Cblake said:

I see the sanction renewal being a good thing in the CSAs eyes, as having as the the MLS teams are currently a step up from the CPL. Canadian players currently have a place to play in Canada in both the CPL and MLS depending on where they are as players.

You'd be right if MLS treated Canadians the same USL did. Otherwise, having no Canadian clubs in MLS doesn't prevent Canadians from playing in MLS. If they are good enough, higher leagues will buy them, MLS or else.

As for the CSA being happy with status quo, I dont know Reid but Montagliani was willing to pull out over roster rules and also, years of putting all our chips in MLS got us no World Cup qualifications, no Hex participation no U20 world cup. 

18 hours ago, Cblake said:

. TFC has its academy and players are being signed out of it every year to first teams deals with TFCII being a stepping stone.

TFC...you mean Team America?

18 hours ago, Cblake said:

Victor having been a part of the CSA knows first hand what role MLS has played in the advancement of player development in the country has played.

Which he threatened to pull from because status quo was pointless unless the roster rules were fair.

18 hours ago, Cblake said:

As long as the US MLS teams count Canadians as internationals having the three MLS teams is big for Canadian soccer.

Vancouver and Montreal got better but TFC are "team America" for a reason. (That's even American fans saying that). It's still amusing that during the Canadian Championship they like to stick to the bear minimum of 3 most of the time and will sub most/all of them at some point.

18 hours ago, Cblake said:

Now if the salaries in the CPL rise etc and the type of player they sign improves then things may change. I can see some give and take on this issue like maybe the VCup rules being instituted for league play, who knows.

No one's talking short term, post 2026 World cup makes more sense where the league will most likely be bigger than now. (MLS started with salaries around 12-13k, and it grew overtime...this can't happen here why exactly?)

18 hours ago, Cblake said:

We have seen the battle going on with the NHL and the IIHF, just do not see anyone wanting something like that in football. 

You really can't compare North American leagues to FIFA. Where leagues are giants in comparison to their international bodies, FIFA is the giant in the room. MLS is significantly smaller in scope and power. If FIFA wants something, it gets it.

Heck even the IOC, UEFA super clubs and Brazil (alcohol laws were changed) can't due anything when FIFA decides something, this belief that MLS somehow would make them shake is truly incomprehensible 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Ansem

[Ansem]

6 hours ago, nfitz said:

There's no way that CONCACAF and CSA would go that direction when there is such a massive difference in quality between the two leagues. Nor has there been any suggestion from them that they would.

There's a massive difference between top teams and bottom tier teams in most leagues around the world. Forced parity is the exception, not the norm. Unlikely that "quality" would be a factor here. Otherwise, we should start dismantling most leagues.

That's football 

[zen]

10 hours ago, Ansem said:

They can't force the 3 MLS teams into CPL. I dont know what's so hard to understand about that.

They can approve or deny the sanction renewal which is very likely to be denied next time around 

This notion of FIFA being scared of MLS is truly baffling and shows a misunderstanding of what FIFA is. 

Likely based on what? LMAO

If CPL and Soccer Canada go after the 3 MLS teams, fuck em all...

I personally want a North American Superleague to be created. 4 divisions split between Canada (1), Mexico (1) and the USA (2). The divisions can have promotion and relegation to a closed 2nd tier.

Only way I personally would like to see the 3 MLS teams join the "CanPL".

Until that day, CanPL should just focus on developing Canadian youth and not on taking away the highest level of competition we have in this country.

[Ams1984]

14 minutes ago, zen said:

Likely based on what? LMAO

If CPL and Soccer Canada go after the 3 MLS teams, **** em all...

I personally want a North American Superleague to be created. 4 divisions split between Canada (1), Mexico (1) and the USA (2). The divisions can have promotion and relegation to a closed 2nd tier.

Only way I personally would like to see the 3 MLS teams join the "CanPL".

Until that day, CanPL should just focus on developing Canadian youth and not on taking away the highest level of competition we have in this country.

“Super league...” ugh, no thanks!

[SoccMan]

I hope that in the end if the three Canadian MLS teams join the CPL it’s voluntary not forced. It might be for the fact that attendance starts to go down and economically with the low attendance it just makes sense to play in the CPL and save money. Moreover, maybe they join because the level in the CPL is almost the same and attendance have picked up where most CPL teams are getting more or the same as most CFL teams. Like I mentioned in an earlier post I’ll know that it may be time for the Canadian MLS teams to join the CPL when I can go to a game in Winnipeg or Hamilton and the stadium is just as full as it is for a CFL game in the same stadiums . I don’t want them to join if you are still going to a Forge or a Valour game and see  stadiums that are 80 percent empty .

[baulderdash77]

I’m content for now with the MLS teams in separate leagues.  I would like the MLS teams to follow 50% CanCon rules for the V Cup but for now that’s it.

The revised MLS roster rules are not terrible anymore and at the moment there’s about 40 Canadian MLS players which is not bad in terms of opportunity and about the CanCon would be for all 3 MLS teams if they were in CanPL.

 

[Kent]

Has anyone run numbers on how many CPL players have spent time with Canadian MLS teams? How many that have been on the first team? Second team? Academy system? I know Montreal and Vancouver don’t have second teams anymore, but it would still be interesting to see those numbers. I think it would illustrate that despite the flaws with MLS and their teams, there is still a benefit to having them. If a TFC for example left MLS for CPL, yes they would give more first team minutes to Canadians, but they might scale back or completely drop TFC II and the academy as well.

[Shway]

My hope is that if the Canadian MLS teams don't migrate to the CPL, then there will be CPL teams in MLS markets. The challenge, and talent is there for it to be a legit alternative, but it would require big money backings. 

Toronto at Lamport, Vancouver at Swangward, Montreal at CSCR would be ideal. 

[m-g-williams]

Bloody hell, are we still arguing about this?

[Cblake]

5 hours ago, Ansem said:

You'd be right if MLS treated Canadians the same USL did. Otherwise, having no Canadian clubs in MLS doesn't prevent Canadians from playing in MLS. If they are good enough, higher leagues will buy them, MLS or else.

As for the CSA being happy with status quo, I dont know Reid but Montagliani was willing to pull out over roster rules and also, years of putting all our chips in MLS got us no World Cup qualifications, no Hex participation no U20 world cup. 

TFC...you mean Team America?

Which he threatened to pull from because status quo was pointless unless the roster rules were fair.

Vancouver and Montreal got better but TFC are "team America" for a reason. (That's even American fans saying that). It's still amusing that during the Canadian Championship they like to stick to the bear minimum of 3 most of the time and will sub most/all of them at some point.

No one's talking short term, post 2020 World cup makes more sense where the league will most likely be bigger than now. (MLS started with salaries around 12-13k, and it grew overtime...this can't happen here why exactly?)

You really can't compare North American leagues to FIFA. Where leagues are giants in comparison to their international bodies, FIFA is the giant in the room. MLS is significantly smaller in scope and power. If FIFA wants something, it gets it.

Heck even the IOC, UEFA super clubs and Brazil (alcohol laws were changed) can't due anything when FIFA decides something, this belief that MLS somehow would make them shake is truly incomprehensible 

When did Victor threaten to pull out of MLS and where was he expecting the three teams to play. Having been a TFC season ticket holder for years and followed them I have never read anywhere of such a situation, so where is this exactly coming from?

[shamrock]

6 hours ago, Ansem said:

TFC...you mean Team America?

 

 

Funny how Team America is providing players for the Canadian Premier League though...