CPL Stadium Thread

[Joe MacCarthy]

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

Does anyone know when the Wanderers find out about their stadium proposal?

Don't know what effect it will or won't have on the Wanderers but the CFL is in talks with a prospective owner (rumoured to be Rob Steele)

The Commissioner has said he has a BOG meeting in December and if this isn't a go and people aren't willing to poop or get off the pot then it's time to move on from Halifax.

I would have to think HRM would know of Steele's involvement (even if it is hush hush at the moment) and Steele is a player of note in Halifax.

[Joe MacCarthy]

3 hours ago, Kingston said:

Does anyone know when the Wanderers find out about their stadium proposal?

Councillors on both sides over $40M Halifax Wanderers stadium proposal
Rebecca Lau Global News September 19, 2023

... More staff reports and presentations will be required before any decisions are made, however, Martin from the Wanderers has indicated he hopes the new stadium could open in May 2025

CFL may shift focus away from Halifax as league continues strategy to add 10th team
Paul Hollingsworth CTV News Atlantic November 16, 2023

The Halifax Regional Municipality’s Regional Council will soon decide if they will renovate the Wanderers Grounds and make it a permanent stadium.

"It is now with the committee and the committee has asked for a staff report,” said HRM Councillor Tony Mancini.

“Staff are going to go away and see what that looks like. Then it will eventually come back to Regional Council."

------------------------------------------------------------------

Before a Wanderers Grounds stadium project is approved, HRM staff will present a report to council the issue will require public consultation as well as a lot of debate.

Martin would like to have the $40 million for the stadium in the HRM budget by spring 2024. That would make it realistic to have a new venue built in time for the 2025 season.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Joe MacCarthy

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Given how insistent CanPL still appear to be about concrete stadium deals being in place before expansion happens have to wonder whether the temporary popup at the Wanderers Grounds was always premised on a CFL stadium with unmarked fieldturf being anticipated to be in place a few years in.

If the end result of all of this is a 8,000+ seat SSS for the Wanderers and no CFL in the Maritimes, it will have been one of the few times (BMO Field is the poster child) soccer has been the top priotity in these situations and not been treated as an afterthought. It's Canada though and the CFL know a federal election is coming and what Justin Trudeau & Co are likely to start doing once they are on the campaign trail...

[Joe MacCarthy]

On 11/21/2023 at 6:15 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

It's Canada though and the CFL know a federal election is coming and what Justin Trudeau & Co are likely to start doing once they are on the campaign trail...

That's very unlikely as the only ways to get federal money are by hosting a large multinational sporting event, being part of an educational infrastructure or a P3. 

The likely only way the CFL would get federal money is to pair with SMU which SMU is very amenable to.  But it also seems unlikely that two stadiums will be built even though it looks like a CFL/SMU solution would be more of a more permanent Empire Field situation.

So the CFL would either partner with the Wanderers at the Wanderer Grounds or SMU at SMU.  Would be interesting to see the three partner together which would likely necessitate artificial turf but not necessarily, see Shell Energy Stadium in Houston.

Any CFL involvement will likely be known in the next month when the commissioner goes to the BOG and details whether there is anything potential going on with the potential owner and/or Halifax.  If not, the CFL will be moving on from Halifax and looking to Quebec City.  So news shouldn't be too long in coming about the CFL which could bear some impact on what could happen with the Wanderers.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Joe MacCarthy

[red card]

As some maybe aware, the Edmonton Elks are considering private ownership. In a press conference yesterday Interim prez/CEO said Commonwealth needs "very high investment" to be a CFL stadium of the future. City has being looking at it. If he had unlimited funds, he would build a new stadium. 

He also added a new stadium won't happen overnight. CPL club needed to fill out more days the stadium being in use.

 

 

[Big_M]

everyone ready for the katz family to buy the elks build a new stadium and bring a cpl franchise?? 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Can remember when Katz was going to be the Edmonton owner rather than the Faths according to the usual suspects on social media only for him to declare it wasn't even on his radar. Then there was Eugene Melnyk building a stadium on LeBreton Flats...

[narduch]

37 minutes ago, Big_M said:

everyone ready for the katz family to buy the elks build a new stadium and bring a cpl franchise?? 

Haven't followed the NHL closely in years now but I always remember Katz being hated

[Joe MacCarthy]

A new stadium in Edmonton is highly unlikely.  Calgary would have to get one first and abandoning Commonwealth while it is still in good condition is unlikely as well. Even though Commonwealth was among the best of its time and has been well maintained it doesn't meet the hospitality model of today.

Then there was this plan

[Joe MacCarthy]

Here is what Edmonton was looking for in their provincial budget in January:

Sohi asks province for roughly $2B in cash including $185M for Commonwealth Stadium upgrades
Sean Amato CTV News Edmonton January 23, 2023

Edmonton's mayor has unveiled a multi-billion dollar wish list – including money for affordable housing, hydrogen buses and upgrades to Commonwealth Stadium – as Alberta works on a new budget.
 
Sohi is also looking for as much as $185 million to renovate and upgrade Commonwealth Stadium so the facility can host more world-class events.

Smith has recently stated she wants to help Calgary build a new arena and events centre where the Calgary Flames would play, although she has not said how much the province would pay towards the project, if any.

"They are really interested in helping Calgary for their arena. We did not get direct support from the province for our downtown arena other than the Community Revitalization Levy," Sohi said.

"What I am saying is, there are amenities in Edmonton that can be upgraded and refurbished that will allow us to attract international activities and events, such as FIFA and others. I think these are very important investments that we want to make in partnership with the provincial government."

Other things to look at:

Two years ago, they began working on a Master Plan, despite the stadium looking “cosmetically well” for its 40 plus years. “This project will be more transformative because the stadium is iconic and still useful in its current form,” Fesyk explains. “We’ll update our mechanical, electrical, audio-visual, hospitality areas, etc. to better align with the other Canadian stadiums built within the last five years.”

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

You would need to be doing something like smoking crack to believe Commonwealth Stadium is going to be outright abandoned rather than reconfigured in some way. Think the big missed opportunity for pro soccer may have been when the Faths were angling for the minor league baseball stadium but forget the details and would need to do some googling to remind myself what happened.

As for Alberta politicians hope they think trying to force FIFA to guarantee they would receive World Cup fixtures of a certain quality was worth it. Backward anti-soccer rednecks are going to be backward anti-soccer rednecks even if it means complicating receiving federal infrastructure money that will ultimately mainly benefit their pointy ball sport.

[Joe MacCarthy]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Backward anti-soccer rednecks are going to be backward anti-soccer rednecks even if it means complicating receiving federal infrastructure money that will ultimately mainly benefit their pointy ball sport.

Please, really?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Tame compared to some of the stuff I have had to listen to about soccer over the years and difficult to see what happened in Edmonton where the World Cup was concerned as being anything other than completely boneheaded. Not all of the CFL community is as intelligent as Bob Young was where leveraging soccer related PanAm Games funding was concerned to ultimately mainly benefit the Ticats.

[Cheeta]

18 hours ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

Here is what Edmonton was looking for in their provincial budget in January:

Sohi asks province for roughly $2B in cash including $185M for Commonwealth Stadium upgrades
Sean Amato CTV News Edmonton January 23, 2023

Edmonton's mayor has unveiled a multi-billion dollar wish list – including money for affordable housing, hydrogen buses and upgrades to Commonwealth Stadium – as Alberta works on a new budget.
 
Sohi is also looking for as much as $185 million to renovate and upgrade Commonwealth Stadium so the facility can host more world-class events.

...

 

Not to start something but for the life of me I can't understand how during decades of petro dollars bombarding the Alberta treasurey that province doesn't have the best sporting facilities in Canada.  Arena, stadia, convention. You name it.   

[shermanator]

Decades of resource royalties went into keeping taxes artificially low. That's all there is to it.

There's a lot of wishing in this Edmonton scenario. Let's say that the Elks are actually able to find ownership willing to invest in a league that is slowly dying, and manage to get a stadium built, both of which are tough asks. Is it going to make Edmonton suddenly care about CPL after the shit show that was FC Edmonton? The city has spurned pro soccer time and time again.

Sounds very much like the Elks want to piggy back off CPL to try and get themselves a shiny new stadium. Similar to Winnipeg Football Group who used Valour as an excuse to get their stadium loans forgiven and could not care less about CPL.

Edited November 25, 2023 by shermanator

[Joe MacCarthy]

15 minutes ago, shermanator said:

willing to invest in a league that is slowly dying

Slowly dying since 1988 and resurrecting again in 2023.

[Joe MacCarthy]

9 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Not all of the CFL community is as intelligent as Bob Young was where leveraging soccer related PanAm Games funding was concerned to ultimately mainly benefit the Ticats.

Who realistically didn't think that its primary purpose was to be the much needed new home of the Cats. In most of these markets leveraging soccer is a joke.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

If Commonwealth Stadium had been upgraded in terms of corporate facilities for the World Cup with a healthy injection of federal level money it should have been obvious that the main beneficiary of that long term would have been the CFL after a few prestige soccer games had been hosted for a couple of weeks. That didn't stop Alberta provincial politicians trying to strong arm FIFA for populist reasons. Don't remember there being much of an outcry from the Elks over that and they were also obstructive to the Fath brothers' attempts to make Clarke Stadium more soccer specific.

[An Observer]

11 hours ago, shermanator said:

Decades of resource royalties went into keeping taxes artificially low. That's all there is to it.

That’s it. And just look at places like Norway that are sitting on piles of cash in their sovereign wealth fund and have invested wisely in infrastructure and otherwise; and now have one of the highest standards of living in the world.  It’s just mismanagement over decades.

[gigi riva]

39 minutes ago, An Observer said:

That’s it. And just look at places like Norway that are sitting on piles of cash in their sovereign wealth fund and have invested wisely in infrastructure and otherwise; and now have one of the highest standards of living in the world.  It’s just mismanagement over decades.

Norway doesnt have 40 years of Cnservative governmemts running there oil fund

[Mihairokov]

On 11/20/2023 at 3:24 PM, Joe MacCarthy said:

Don't know what effect it will or won't have on the Wanderers but the CFL is in talks with a prospective owner (rumoured to be Rob Steele)

Is this the usual annual CFL blowing smoke for Halifax expansion so Ambrosie can have the optics of doing something? AFAIK the situation hasn't changed in the past four years.

Either way, a CFL stadium won't end up Downtown or in the urban core, and Wanderers would be foolish to relocate to anywhere that isn't where they exactly are.

On 11/25/2023 at 12:09 PM, Joe MacCarthy said:

Slowly dying since 1988 and resurrecting again in 2023.

In what way is the CFL resurrecting? The league has been declining steadily for decades now and is beginning to reach the point where its teams in its major centres cannot build or retrofit stadiums for themselves,lest they are gifted new ones or moved into stadiums meant for other teams. I struggle to think of any positive trend for the league in 2023 compared to five years ago.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Mihairokov

[Joe MacCarthy]

16 minutes ago, Mihairokov said:

I struggle to think of any positive trend for the league in 2023 compared to five years ago.

You're right (about everything), you win.

[red card]

1 hour ago, Mihairokov said:

Is this the usual annual CFL blowing smoke for Halifax expansion so Ambrosie can have the optics of doing something? AFAIK the situation hasn't changed in the past four years.

Either way, a CFL stadium won't end up Downtown or in the urban core, and Wanderers would be foolish to relocate to anywhere that isn't where they exactly are.

In what way is the CFL resurrecting? The league has been declining steadily for decades now and is beginning to reach the point where its teams in its major centres cannot build or retrofit stadiums for themselves,lest they are gifted new ones or moved into stadiums meant for other teams. I struggle to think of any positive trend for the league in 2023 compared to five years ago.

CFL has been in general decline but there were some green shoots seen this year. TSN ratings went up 12% YoY even though TSN subs have fallen 30%+ in the past 5 years. 

CFL attendance was up 3% YoY with the Argos at the helm with a 21% growth. Average Argos attendance was their best since 2016. BC grew by 14% and achieved their best attendance since 2014. 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by red card

[SpursFlu]

Lions have definitely seen a bit of a bump in the Lower Mainland. A lot of people come to Canada and are already football fans but just know nothing about the CFL. So this whole notion that the CFL won't work in urban cores is nonsense. They just need to allow time for people to assimilate and get to know the product. It's a good product just lacks awareness for a lot of people and it would be nice if people who should know better didn't shat on it all the time. I know maybe Valour fans might disagree but there is an opportunity for CPL & CFL could work together in an effort to expand.

Edited November 27, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Mihairokov]

15 hours ago, red card said:

CFL has been in general decline but there were some green shoots seen this year. TSN ratings went up 12% YoY even though TSN subs have fallen 30%+ in the past 5 years. 

CFL attendance was up 3% YoY with the Argos at the helm with a 21% growth. Average Argos attendance was their best since 2016. BC grew by 14% and achieved their best attendance since 2014. 

 

In my post I made reference to "five years ago" because COVID has thrown a wrench into a lot of the trending and YoY comps people typically do for these sorts of things. 2022 was a bit of a down year for the CFL, relatively-speaking, and so numbers will definitely look good in comparison. IIRC the trends in national TV audiences and attendance are still doing the same sort of downward trend they were doing in the seasons leading up to COVID.

For example, one could say that CFL average attendance increased in 2023 over 2022 by ~3.10% (22,414 versus 21,741), but you could also say that CFL average attendance declined in 2023 compared to 2019 by (~-2.20%) (versus 2019's 22,917), continuing the years-long trend prior to COVID. In the years leading up to COVID the CFL was shedding something like 800 people per game each season. Compare this to CPL teams who are still showing growth even compared to 2019- apples to oranges, maybe.

Anyway, I don't mean to be too harsh about the numbers, and the improved numbers in BC (thanks to a season opener concert, IIRC) and the Argos (thanks to mushing games into Exhibition time and removing one home game each season to Halifax) bode well for the league in the places they need it, but these are currently duelling with collapsing crowds in Alberta and steadily declining crowds elsewhere. It's a balancing act as all things are.

Edmonton is talking about a new stadium because 1) Commonwealth is old, but more importantly 2) It's now far too large for its main tenant, a growing trend throughout the CFL. Empty seats are bad optics not only visually but practically in the exercise of selling tickets, and so if they could downsize a new stadium they would in a heartbeat, especially if it's not paid for by them. Trying to loop in a potential second tenant in the CPL is the same sort of carrot-on-a-stick that Winnipeg used in renegotiating their fee repayments at IGF, and we've seen the effort that WFC has put into Valour since.

As others have pointed out, i'm not convinced Edmonton is an especially good soccer market at present, and CPL would do better to look at bolstering its team lineup elsewhere at current, ideally southwestern Ontario but also in Quebec or BC.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Mihairokov