CPL Stadium Thread

[Kent]

4 hours ago, Mihairokov said:

Compare this to CPL teams who are still showing growth even compared to 2019- apples to oranges, maybe.

Although the CPL had it's highest total attendance this year, it didn't have it's highest per game. The highest attendance per game was in 2019. Only Pacific and Cavalry had a higher per game attendance in 2023 than they did in 2019.

[Mihairokov]

29 minutes ago, Kent said:

Although the CPL had it's highest total attendance this year, it didn't have it's highest per game. The highest attendance per game was in 2019. Only Pacific and Cavalry had a higher per game attendance in 2023 than they did in 2019.

How much of this changes when the freebie league opener in Hamilton is removed from the averages?

Ottawa has been increasing their crowds steadily as well, although they don't count towards the "versus 2019" group.

[jdheid]

4 hours ago, Mihairokov said:

In my post I made reference to "five years ago" because COVID has thrown a wrench into a lot of the trending and YoY comps people typically do for these sorts of things. 2022 was a bit of a down year for the CFL, relatively-speaking, and so numbers will definitely look good in comparison. IIRC the trends in national TV audiences and attendance are still doing the same sort of downward trend they were doing in the seasons leading up to COVID.

For example, one could say that CFL average attendance increased in 2023 over 2022 by ~3.10% (22,414 versus 21,741), but you could also say that CFL average attendance declined in 2023 compared to 2019 by (~-2.20%) (versus 2019's 22,917), continuing the years-long trend prior to COVID. In the years leading up to COVID the CFL was shedding something like 800 people per game each season. Compare this to CPL teams who are still showing growth even compared to 2019- apples to oranges, maybe.

Anyway, I don't mean to be too harsh about the numbers, and the improved numbers in BC (thanks to a season opener concert, IIRC) and the Argos (thanks to mushing games into Exhibition time and removing one home game each season to Halifax) bode well for the league in the places they need it, but these are currently duelling with collapsing crowds in Alberta and steadily declining crowds elsewhere. It's a balancing act as all things are.

Edmonton is talking about a new stadium because 1) Commonwealth is old, but more importantly 2) It's now far too large for its main tenant, a growing trend throughout the CFL. Empty seats are bad optics not only visually but practically in the exercise of selling tickets, and so if they could downsize a new stadium they would in a heartbeat, especially if it's not paid for by them. Trying to loop in a potential second tenant in the CPL is the same sort of carrot-on-a-stick that Winnipeg used in renegotiating their fee repayments at IGF, and we've seen the effort that WFC has put into Valour since.

As others have pointed out, i'm not convinced Edmonton is an especially good soccer market at present, and CPL would do better to look at bolstering its team lineup elsewhere at current, ideally southwestern Ontario but also in Quebec or BC.

As an Edmontonian, I'm constantly amazed at how poorly FC Edmonton was supported. Youth soccer and Men's and women's leagues seem to be thriving. The demand for indoor field space is incredible. Yet so many of these players seemed to have litle interest in watching the pro game, even when many youth were coached by FC Edmonton players. I always rolled my eyes when people said it was the stadium because in my opinion, the stadium has a few things going for it: close to LRT, seats are on top of the action and free parking if you were willing to walk a few blocks. My opinion changed when I went to a Cavalry match this summer. Better venue, better food, better fan experience all around seems to lead to more engagement with the real product which is the soccer. Even if the product on the field is good, building up the experience gives the impression of an even better product, so I think if we get a new stadium, it would make a world of difference.

[Kingston]

5 hours ago, Mihairokov said:

As others have pointed out, i'm not convinced Edmonton is an especially good soccer market at present, and CPL would do better to look at bolstering its team lineup elsewhere at current, ideally southwestern Ontario but also in Quebec or BC.

It might not be right now but, realistically, it is one that the CPL needs to figure out.  We just don't have enough good markets that we want to be permanently without a team in Edmonton.

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Although the CPL had it's highest total attendance this year, it didn't have it's highest per game. The highest attendance per game was in 2019. Only Pacific and Cavalry had a higher per game attendance in 2023 than they did in 2019.

That surprises me, but I guess Ottawa is excluded from this comparison. Still, I expected Forge and Halifax to have increased. Pacific increasing surprises me too, but I guess our stadium was a construction site for much of the first year, and we didn't have the end stand until late in the season. Scheduling still sucked for us this season, but it might have been marginally better. Still, they actually seemed to put an ounce of effort into advertising back in 2019, which they don't do now.

56 minutes ago, jdheid said:

As an Edmontonian, I'm constantly amazed at how poorly FC Edmonton was supported. Youth soccer and Men's and women's leagues seem to be thriving. The demand for indoor field space is incredible. Yet so many of these players seemed to have litle interest in watching the pro game, even when many youth were coached by FC Edmonton players. I always rolled my eyes when people said it was the stadium because in my opinion, the stadium has a few things going for it: close to LRT, seats are on top of the action and free parking if you were willing to walk a few blocks. My opinion changed when I went to a Cavalry match this summer. Better venue, better food, better fan experience all around seems to lead to more engagement with the real product which is the soccer. Even if the product on the field is good, building up the experience gives the impression of an even better product, so I think if we get a new stadium, it would make a world of difference.

I went to a bunch of Edmonton games back in the NASL days. It's much easier to get to than Pacific home games, but the atmosphere was lousy even back then. I don't think having a much bigger stadium as a neighbour does much for the prestige of Clarke

[SpursFlu]

People want to go and have a total experience. One main component is the facility. Look at these random MLS teams that are doing great. What do they have in common? Great modern stadiums. People talk about CFL declining in Alberta.. first it's nice to not lose all the time but time to get real.. McMahon stadium and to a lesser degree Commonwealth stadium are a complete joke. 

Build a 20-30 k stadium with cover, amenities, modern, wrap it around, leave one end a bit open for one offs or whatever and I guarantee CFL and CPL would be amazing 

[Kent]

1 hour ago, Mihairokov said:

How much of this changes when the freebie league opener in Hamilton is removed from the averages?

Ottawa has been increasing their crowds steadily as well, although they don't count towards the "versus 2019" group.

If we exclude the league opener in 2019 the numbers change, but the rankings don't. 2019 still trumps 2023, both for the league as a whole and for Forge specifically.

As for Ottawa, they aren't included in my list of teams that are drawing more/fewer than they did in 2019, but their numbers are included in the 2023 league average (as are Vancouver's).

31 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

That surprises me, but I guess Ottawa is excluded from this comparison. Still, I expected Forge and Halifax to have increased. Pacific increasing surprises me too

Here are the numbers I've got. Forge (with the opener), Valour, and York all down a lot from 2019. HFX down a little, and Vancouver down a little compared to Edmonton. Ottawa's big number is a great bonus for 2023. Cavalry up a significant amount, and Pacific up a bit.

Hopefully the growth from 2021 to 2022 to 2023 continues next year. If it does, we could potentially eclipse the 2019 average.

[SoccMan]

5 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

People want to go and have a total experience. One main component is the facility. Look at these random MLS teams that are doing great. What do they have in common? Great modern stadiums. People talk about CFL declining in Alberta.. first it's nice to not lose all the time but time to get real.. McMahon stadium and to a lesser degree Commonwealth stadium are a complete joke. 

Build a 20-30 k stadium with cover, amenities, modern, wrap it around, leave one end a bit open for one offs or whatever and I guarantee CFL and CPL would be amazing 

Enclose the damn thing right around what’s with this stupid Canadian thing of building stadiums with open ends so you can put temporary stands once every 10 years you host a grey cup lol, just charge more for tickets when the grey cup comes around and you will make your money . 

[phil03]

Honestly, I don't feel a comparison with 2019 is fair or enlightening. There was bound to be a drop once the shine of novelty wears off, that's just how sport is. 

Like, I have my concerns with how the CPL develops in some regards, and I'd obviously like the league's progress to be even faster, both for its own sake and for the money to once more go to the national teams, but outside of York United and VFC the attendence front is going ok to great, depending on the club.

[Kent]

1 hour ago, phil03 said:

Honestly, I don't feel a comparison with 2019 is fair or enlightening. There was bound to be a drop once the shine of novelty wears off, that's just how sport is. 

Like, I have my concerns with how the CPL develops in some regards, and I'd obviously like the league's progress to be even faster, both for its own sake and for the money to once more go to the national teams, but outside of York United and VFC the attendence front is going ok to great, depending on the club.

To be clear, someone brought up that attendance is better now than it was in 2019, so I just corrected them. I agree that year 1 was always likely to have the record for per game attendance for several years. I think it took MLS something like 17 years to beat it's year 1 average attendance record.

Personally, before year 1 I didn't have any specific attendance targets. I just wanted to see where it was, then I assumed it would drop in year 2 (I didn't assume there would be a pandemic), and then my hope was that it would trend in the right direction from there. So far it has grown every year I was hoping it would. It grew 17% from 2021 to 2022. Some of that is artificial because there were still some restrictions in 2021, and hesitancy of course. Then it grew another 20% from 2022 to 2023. I'm guessing we won't grow at that high a rate again in 2024. We shedded Edmonton in 2023, which helps the average, and there is a good chance Vancouver will see a decline after year 1, but not guaranteed. Probably for us to grow by 17% or more again it would take new owners in York coming in and hitting it out of the park right from the get go, along with steady growth across the rest of the league.

[Cheeta]

^  Still believe Valour is underperforming in the market, substantially underperforming, and if that can be corrected in 2024 (and boy would that take some vodoo) that alone would move the league numbers in a positive direction. 

The disadvantages that come with the too large CFL venues can also be a strength.  Simple capacity.  That applies to Forge and Atletico as much as Valour.  Just one really good gate can go a long way to moving the needle for the season totals.  Wishfull thinking but the point stands.     

[Kingston]

9 hours ago, phil03 said:

Honestly, I don't feel a comparison with 2019 is fair or enlightening. There was bound to be a drop once the shine of novelty wears off, that's just how sport is. 

Actually, that's why2019 is a useful comparison.  It is the initial high water mark.  It will be a significant milestone when the sustained attendance passes the level generated by the initial enthusiasm of having a new league.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Kingston

[shermanator]

On 11/27/2023 at 1:42 PM, Aird25 said:

I went to a bunch of Edmonton games back in the NASL days. It's much easier to get to than Pacific home games, but the atmosphere was lousy even back then. I don't think having a much bigger stadium as a neighbour does much for the prestige of Clarke

Having been to both Clarke Stadium and Wanderers Grounds, they are remarkably similar in nature. But one draws 5000+ every game and one drew nowhere near that. 

The atmosphere was lousy not just because of the stadium, but because Edmonton just never really took to professional soccer. I don't think it's as simple as having a deep pocketed owner and a shiny new stadium either. 

[Markoaleks]

Well said !

been to both grounds and the “guts “ of the  stadiums are not drastically different 

That said - the game experience defined as food and beverage at HFX is/ was light years better than FCED 

what also struck me when I went to a game after Canada V CR in Edmonton was the high school “ish” stand that TV did not pick up and the cafeteria calibre food Bev compared to HFX  as well as nothing in CPL can compare to the supporters feel at HFX- Kitchen rules 

 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 hours ago, shermanator said:

Having been to both Clarke Stadium and Wanderers Grounds, they are remarkably similar in nature. But one draws 5000+ every game and one drew nowhere near that. 

The atmosphere was lousy not just because of the stadium, but because Edmonton just never really took to professional soccer. I don't think it's as simple as having a deep pocketed owner and a shiny new stadium either. 

It feels like banging my head against the wall, to sell soccer - as in something you watch and pay for - to most of my Edmonton friends and family. Other than in specific communities, it seems like it always did, every since I was old enough to spend money.  (Being a very little kid in the  Brickmen days maybe felt different but that could be warped due to being so young.)

Would love to be more positive. 

[phil03]

Honestly, for me Edmonton is about more then how well that franchise will do in isolation. The whole rationale for the national teams to pay for the CPL through the CSB deal is to have more then three clubs to develop players and to have people on the ground to scout and foster talent all across the country. Edmonton is, alongside Calgary and Ottawa, one of the textbook examples of large urban areas where we need infrastructure to prevent promising talented younger players to fall through the cracks so a club is needed there asap, its basically the CPL's mission statement and reason for existing.

If the league can't deal with another club with low attendance then just move York United to a better spot...

[shermanator]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

It feels like banging my head against the wall, to sell soccer - as in something you watch and pay for - to most of my Edmonton friends and family. Other than in specific communities, it seems like it always did, every since I was old enough to spend money.  (Being a very little kid in the  Brickmen days maybe felt different but that could be warped due to being so young.)

Would love to be more positive. 

Prior to Foothills and Cavalry launching I did a few solo trips to Edmonton to try and link up with the supporters there. They were two of the worst times I have ever had watching soccer. Found them to be very closed off and completely unwelcoming. IMO this is a big contributor to the issues in that city. Not only do the majority of people not care, but the people who do care aren't pleasant to be around. Would that change if the game day experience were better and there was a winning product on the pitch? I don't know...

Thankfully since Foothills and Cavalry launched I have met some good people there and have had some great times in Edmonton at CPL and national team games. But that is largely due to the fact that supporters from Calgary have come up in droves and made the trips enjoyable. For me, the whole experience was a learning moment in establishing the supporters scene in my own city, if you make sure people have a good time, they'll be back.

If this league is around long enough, Edmonton will be back at some point. But I think people need to forget about anything resembling professional soccer in Edmonton for a while.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

...(Being a very little kid in the  Brickmen days maybe felt different but that could be warped due to being so young.)...

Clarke stadium was still a lot bigger in terms of seating would be one point of difference but not sure whether the Brickmen always played there. The Drillers indoor team was the incarnation of pro soccer that had the most fan interest since then when Peter Pocklington was the owner in the NPSL but that didn't last long because pro indoor soccer declined big time after the top players moved outdoors again to MLS.

The Fath brothers poured a lot of money into FCE but you have to question whether the CFL fraternity and municipal politicians in Edmonton were trying to actively undermine them where the stadium was concerned because it placed limits on the quality of the game day experience. The promise of a new municipally funded stadium if there were consistent sellouts turned into a bit of a Catch 22 scenario for them given how bad the existing stadium arrangement was.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, shermanator said:

If this league is around long enough, Edmonton will be back at some point. But I think people need to forget about anything resembling professional soccer in Edmonton for a while.

I would hope that some ambitious "League One" owners would recognize this window to try and establish some teams there, much like how TSS Rovers took advantage of the pre-CPL vacuum to capture some disenfranchised Whitecaps fans.  League One in Edmonton wouldn't block the eventual return of a CPL team, but it would give players in the area a place to continue developing and fans a continued link to the soccer pyramid in Canada.

[MtlMario]

7 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Clarke stadium was still a lot bigger in terms of seating would be one point of difference but not sure whether the Brickmen always played there. The Drillers indoor team was the incarnation of pro soccer that had the most fan interest since then when Peter Pocklington was the owner in the NPSL but that didn't last long because pro indoor soccer declined big time after the top players moved outdoors again to MLS.

The Fath brothers poured a lot of money into FCE but you have to question whether the CFL fraternity and municipal politicians in Edmonton were trying to actively undermine them where the stadium was concerned because it placed limits on the quality of the game day experience. The promise of a new municipally funded stadium if there were consistent sellouts turned into a bit of a Catch 22 scenario for them given how bad the existing stadium arrangement was.

Of course it is the CFL's fault again, you remind me of the separatists here that's it's always "la faute du federale" when something is wrong. 

[shermanator]

7 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I would hope that some ambitious "League One" owners would recognize this window to try and establish some teams there, much like how TSS Rovers took advantage of the pre-CPL vacuum to capture some disenfranchised Whitecaps fans.  League One in Edmonton wouldn't block the eventual return of a CPL team, but it would give players in the area a place to continue developing and fans a continued link to the soccer pyramid in Canada.

Scottish and BTB are in League1 Alberta. Amateur soccer is a very tough sell though, no matter where you are in the country. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by shermanator

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

20 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

Of course it is the CFL's fault again, you remind me of the separatists here that's it's always "la faute du federale" when something is wrong. 

Maybe try reading up on what actually happened in this context:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/canadian-premier-league-soccer-clarke-stadium-edmonton-1.4617855

https://3downnation.com/2018/04/19/eskimos-oppose-stadium-renovations-that-would-help-soccer-team/

[MtlMario]

4 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Maybe try reading up on what actually happened in this context:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/canadian-premier-league-soccer-clarke-stadium-edmonton-1.4617855

https://3downnation.com/2018/04/19/eskimos-oppose-stadium-renovations-that-would-help-soccer-team/

Try something newer than 5 years old. And I'm sure you're a big CFL fan too.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

What happened in 2018 with FCE, the then Eskimos and the City of Edmonton where Clarke stadium was concerned was pivotal to the sort of game day experience FCE had to offer in a CanPL context relative to what unfolded in Halifax. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

9 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Clarke stadium was still a lot bigger in terms of seating would be one point of difference but not sure whether the Brickmen always played there. The Drillers indoor team was the incarnation of pro soccer that had the most fan interest since then when Peter Pocklington was the owner in the NPSL but that didn't last long because pro indoor soccer declined big time after the top players moved outdoors again to MLS.

I had a hazy memory of going to John Ducey, the baseball park, for one game at least.  It sent me down a mini research rabbit hole this morning.  Found this ad in the Journal archives - July 86' .  So not completely off my rocker.

. 

That game ended up having 1,182 in attendance. 

Other articles  I found in 85/86 had 2,436 fans at Clarke Park for a 1-5 loss to Dundee United.  Another talks about the formation of the CSL.  And that their last home game of 85 would again be at John Ducey. 

Also one where they sign Paul Dolan, which I definitely remember

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by WestHamCanadianinOxford