CPL Stadium Thread

[SoccMan]

2 hours ago, MtlMario said:

Try something newer than 5 years old. And I'm sure you're a big CFL fan too.

Hey guess what I don’t like the CFL or the NFL for that matter if both leagues went away I wouldn’t even notice . I’m sure if I went on a CFL forum or an NFL one there would be a lot of haters and very obnoxious ones at that . I’ve even gotten hate from an Aurora  Ontario hockey arena manager back when I was involved with the then  the Aurora League 1 Ontario team when we were using the hockey arena change rooms that were close to the field, telling me why don’t “ you people “ find your own change rooms somewhere else and not here . I’m wondering if he didn’t like the sport or was using the sport as an excuse to vent his racist views seeing the diverse make up of  different ethnicities and races of the players and some speaking different languages that made up our team that he would see coming  in every Aurora league 1 game day , something that he wasn’t  use to when the very white and very “ Canadian “ looking hockey players came in for their games .  Moreover , this is only a few years ago lol.  The hate on for soccer from the CFL, NFL , baseball and hockey loving people that are in positions of power while not as prevalent as back in the day is still there and when decisions are to be made on facilities you don’t think their biases and sometimes prejudices come into play like I’m pretty sure came through with these Clarke stadium decisions don’t kid yourself even though it’s 2023 .

Edited November 29, 2023 by SoccMan

[MtlMario]

1 hour ago, SoccMan said:

Hey guess what I don’t like the CFL or the NFL for that matter if both leagues went away I wouldn’t even notice . I’m sure if I went on a CFL forum or an NFL one there would be a lot of haters and very obnoxious ones at that . I’ve even gotten hate from an Aurora  Ontario hockey arena manager back when I was involved with the then  the Aurora League 1 Ontario team when we were using the hockey arena change rooms that were close to the field, telling me why don’t “ you people “ find your own change rooms somewhere else and not here . I’m wondering if he didn’t like the sport or was using the sport as an excuse to vent his racist views seeing the diverse make up of  different ethnicities and races of the players and some speaking different languages that made up our team that he would see coming  in every Aurora league 1 game day , something that he wasn’t  use to when the very white and very “ Canadian “ looking hockey players came in for their games .  Moreover , this is only a few years ago lol.  The hate on for soccer from the CFL, NFL , baseball and hockey loving people that are in positions of power while not as prevalent as back in the day is still there and when decisions are to be made on facilities you don’t think their biases and sometimes prejudices come into play like I’m pretty sure came through with these Clarke stadium decisions don’t kid yourself even though it’s 2023 .

There's also haters that do not like american style football or hockey, etc. You will always find haters unfortunately.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, SoccMan said:

...The hate on for soccer from the CFL, NFL , baseball and hockey loving people that are in positions of power while not as prevalent as back in the day is still there and when decisions are to be made on facilities you don’t think their biases and sometimes prejudices come into play like I’m pretty sure came through with these Clarke stadium decisions don’t kid yourself even though it’s 2023 .

Sums it up in a nutshell. Pretty much anywhere in Canada the idea of spending $40 million or whatever on a soccer stadium is sure to become a major lightning rod issue, while the same local politicians and angry radio talk show caller types wouldn't bat an eyelid if it was a new aquatic centre or something like that. Exactly how difficult would it have been to upgrade some other facility for occasional Eskimo practice sessions and high school gridiron games so Clarke stadium could be soccer specific? The opposition was probably driven by a visceral level territorial mentality as much as anything else.

[Watchmen]

5 hours ago, shermanator said:

Scottish and BTB are in League1 Alberta. Amateur soccer is a very tough sell though, no matter where you are in the country. 

Yeah, I knew they participated in the exhibition series last year. And amateur is a tough sell. I'm simply saying there's the opportunity one of the clubs to try and capture what supporters there are and try to build something, similar to TSS.

[Tigers]

This is the only place on the internet where the CFL is a big, bad, political strings-pulling force. Everywhere else it's either worry for its own survival, deriding it as a joke, or a foreign curiosity.

[phil03]

I don't dislike the CFL per say, and much less see it as a big, bad, political strings-pulling force but I will admit to get irritated at the whole ''CFL is a key part of Canadian'' speel, and the willingness of some of our politicians to buy it and factor it in governmental dealing with the league. Like, when I saw the Grey Cup in my passport's images my eyes did a 180 to their back sockets...

Like, at this stage the CFL is pretty much out of the mainstream outside of the hearth of the Prairies. It still had a passionate fanbase but very little outside of it, safe for big games. Moreover, when I look at its pageantry, with the cops as well the military personnel's roles in opening game ceremonies/announcements, the confetis when a touchdown happen, the very sport they are playing and the cheerleaders, it doesn't come across as culturally Canadian to me. It, almost to an eye-rolling degree, is culturally American, and the Maple Leafs wallpaper put over it doesn't change that.

And you know what? There is nothing wrong with that! But their tendency to wrap themselves in the flag and how some just buy it is utterly unhearned IMO.

On top of that they also don't really do much for Canada's representation in world sports, thanks to American football not being that widespread globally, and they aren't contributing much in term of encouraging people to get into sports and in shape. Therefore, IMO the CFL ought to be left to swim or sink on its merits, with the public sector not doing anything to hinder it but not providing a cent in funding either.

EDIT: On a more CPL-related note, lets colaborate with them when its good for the league but lets keep it on a case-by-case scenario that doesn't preclude seeing them as an obstacle to the league in instances where they are.

Edited December 1, 2023 by phil03

[Joe MacCarthy]

I'm sorry but much of the above is absolutely ridiculous and I'm sure the usual contingent of CFL haters will attack me but the delusion above has to be rebutted.  It sounded like some of the worst old world condescension I can imagine.

Let me give you some Voyageurs history on soccer and the CFL.  They both lived peacefully minding their own business with baseball being the usual source of soccer jealousy with the oft quoted "fat out of shape ball players" quote.  In fact there were a fair amount of cross over fans like me and at one time soccer and CFL were to be sharing a stadium at Varsity.  Obviously it didn't come to pass at Varsity but eventually did come to pass at BMO.

That all changed the second news got out that the Argos might begin to play at BMO.  That is when the social media wrath of the soccer zealots laser focused on the CFL and more closely the Argos. The posts are here for all to see.

I seriously thought that because of all the turf fear mongering not coming to pass that aside from a few hard core zealots we could all sing Kumbaya

Seriously seeing the Grey Cup, a championship contested for 114 years bothered you?  There are several people here who hope one of the very few wholly in Canada leagues dies.  I would never on my worst day project that on the CPL.

Also, your knowledge of the CFL is lacking regarding its popularity.  Another poster was posting misinformation and I let it go, because I really am getting tired of the social media wars but sometimes you just gotta speak out.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Last time I checked this is a soccer board rather than a CFL one so you are going to have to put up with the perspectives of people who greatly prefer soccer to the CFL and know through lived experience how their preferred sport was being sidelined and marginalized compared to the one true chosen form of football long before the CFL and the Argos barged their way into BMO Field.

phil03's comments sound about right to me. The CFL gets built up as being a key part of Canadian culture but in my experience it simply isn't in the same league as hockey in that regard. I honestly can't think of anyone I have ever met in London, Ont that follows the CFL to any huge extent or would have a Grey Cup themed social event. The NFL and the Superbowl on the other hand is a completely different story.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Grey Cup contested for 114 years, no cultural relevance at all.

And the old this is a soccer board baloney.  Well the creators of this board in their infinite wisdom came up with a section called General Off-Topic Discussion and that's where I usually like to hang out with some of the more popularly viewed threads like the CFL, Canadian Stadiums, Open Source Software, and Cord Cutting.  Some people even find them useful as they have posted.

My CFL posts in other threads are almost always reactive, usually to correct false statements.  I'd like to get along as I have been a fan of our Nats longer than most people here have been alive (who cares) but there are a few who keep pushing this CFL holding soccer back narrative when if it wasn't for the CFL for good or bad the CPL likely wouldn't exist and I don't think those 3k crowds the CPL are getting are helping the CFL much.  Certainly didn't help building the best stadium in the country.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 minute ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

Grey Cup contested for 114 years, no cultural relevance at all....

Launches in straight away with a strawman argument. Beyond that Bob Young being interested in soccer isn't the CFL and by extension the Eskimo Elks being interested in soccer so those are two things that should not be conflated in a thread like this. The level of fan interest in TFC in 2007 proved once and for all that pro soccer can succeed in Canada when suitable infrastructure is provided. Having that happen is still very difficult for a variety of reasons.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Ottawa, Winnipeg?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

I really don't think either of those are optimal from a soccer standpoint and would prefer that soccer is able to do it's own thing on stadia but it's progress from how things were 30 years ago with visible gridirons and astroturf.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Well we all progress and hopefully continue to.  I like to watch old English First Division games and I think some young folk would be appalled at stadium and turf conditions back then at what was likely the best setup in the world.

I can still remember like yesterday being in a bar with a friend and being transfixed watching Valley Parade (Bradford City) go up in flames.  I also recall watching QPR, PNE, Oldham and Luton with second generation artificial turf and how brutal it was.

Even though facilities in Canada may be small they are no where near as terrible as was back in the mid 80s in England.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Not really interested in some UK vs Canada argument. The old grounds in the UK were built for soccer and worked well for the sport in the context of their time. The more modern stadia work well for the sport too but the atmosphere is a lot more bland. The key difference is that CFL stadia are designed for a sport other than soccer and can wind up being a wind tunnel with relatively poor sight lines from a soccer perspective.

In a CanPL setting the CFL stadia are also way too big for the likely level of spectator interest given the relatively low playing standards involved. The CFL has a huge number of former US college stars that don't make the NFL to draw from because the gridiron version of football is only played fully professionally by about 40 clubs in North America. In contrast, Soccer is a truly global sport with CanPL way further down the pecking order than second, so that means many soccer fans will only be watching games from overseas on cable or via webstreaming and are not going to be interested in their local CanPL club.

There are many reasons why Halifax worked so well, but something smaller scale and soccer specific is the better way to go to create the optimal game day experience.

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[MtlMario]

I'm convinced that you have shares in the Halifax team.

[Bison44]

PFFTTT!!  He hasnt even been to a game.  Its easy to throw Halifax out there as an example of success, but its so specific and unique to their situation it gets annoying after awhile.  Who else can replicate a perfect little public space with a long sports history in a decent sized city starved for pro sports and a public who likes the "party atmosphere" and doesnt seem to care much that the team has little onfield success.   WPG sucks..attendance/interest goes down. 

I really hope they get their permanent stadium situation figured out because it doesnt seem like there is a lot of interest (ie public money) in putting a permanent soccer specific solution in their perfect location.  I always wonder how much money are HFX leaving on the table, not having a extra couple thousand seats.  

Everyone else has had to make do with existing stadiums that dont fit our needs (Wpg,Ottawa,Forge,FCE) or build something from scratch (Calgary/Pacific/VFC)and struggle with expansions, upgrades and teething problems.  I just hope the league lasts long enough and gathers enough interest that we can get more midsize success stories and build a "soccer nation" not just in the 3 biggest sports meccas, but coast to coast.    

[shermanator]

Halifax has temporary bleachers and shipping containers with food trucks on a dirt lot. Edmonton has a small concrete grandstand and temporary bleachers with a little concession stand on pavement and artificial turf. Very similar setups, but one draws well and one didn't. 

Halifax has succeeded because CPL provided the city with an exciting entertainment option and a cool factor that drew people in. Edmonton failed because the owners had no clue how to operate a fucking soccer team and pissed off youth clubs, supporters and casual fans. This despite new GM after new GM claiming they could fix the attendance issues. No one wanted to even entertain the thought of buying FC Edmonton given the owners insistence on having their NASL debts made whole, and yet York, who on paper are just as bad and have legitimate competition for the sport in the same city, were just purchased.

The Elks and the CFL are not the root of soccer not succeeding in Edmonton.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

2 hours ago, MtlMario said:

I'm convinced that you have shares in the Halifax team.

Not sure what's difficult to understand about Halifax being by far the strongest performer on attendance on a per capita basis in the city concerned despite appearing to have the least soccer friendly demographics at the outset. Understanding what went right there and trying to emulate it elsewhere in other midsized markets would arguably have been more sensible than still trying to make York United work five years after what unfolded in 2019 and going on to repeat what happened in that context to a certain extent with Vancouver FC.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[MtlMario]

I'm sure everyone understands you repeated it enough times.

[Stanley]

2 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

I'm sure everyone understands you repeated it enough times.

Why should he stop now?  He's been repeating himself like this for over 20 years on the boards.

[shermanator]

Imagine being told to fuck off for over 30 years and still going strong.

[Watchmen]

14 hours ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

That all changed the second news got out that the Argos might begin to play at BMO.  That is when the social media wrath of the soccer zealots laser focused on the CFL and more closely the Argos. The posts are here for all to see.

I like the CFL. I get out to games. I will be at the Grey Cup next year.

Having said that, I think it's fair for TFC/Canada soccer fans to be frustrated with what happened to BMO. Before it was built, the CSA reached out to the Argos to look in to ground sharing and help with the cost of building. They declined, and it put that project in jeopardy. It took a lot of hard work from people in soccer to finally get it built, and it was the rare larger soccer-specific ground in the country. Then the Argos circled back after the hard work was done and were able to get a ground share that did alter the field.

I'm not saying it's the end of the world, and if the Argos had been on board since the start I think the complaints would be much more minimal. But I can understand peoples frustration around all of it (though I don't understand people who hope the league fails).

[Joe MacCarthy]

I get what you're saying and happy you are making the argument civilly but if we go back to the beginning when everybody was on board it was the UofT that killed the deal.  Then the Argos made the mistake of opting out of the York deal and were later offered a deal they couldn't refuse to stay at Skydome.

I've posted the city minutes that stated that the new stadium was to be "football ready" to be converted to football.  It was not constructed that way and later the changes and sharing happened.

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

I get what you're saying and happy you are making the argument civilly but if we go back to the beginning when everybody was on board it was the UofT that killed the deal.  Then the Argos made the mistake of opting out of the York deal and were later offered a deal they couldn't refuse to stay at Skydome.

I've posted the city minutes that stated that the new stadium was to be "football ready" to be converted to football.  It was not constructed that way and later the changes and sharing happened.

Yes. I get that UofT also caused problems, and Skydome ended up offering a great deal. I think I'm just coming at it from the perspective of soccer took the risk on the stadium and it paid off, but the Argos are sharing in some of the reward (at some inconvenience to soccer). So I can get why some fans are at least annoyed by it.

[longlugan]

18 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Last time I checked this is a soccer board rather than a CFL one so you are going to have to put up with the perspectives of people who greatly prefer soccer to the CFL and know through lived experience how their preferred sport was being sidelined and marginalized compared to the one true chosen form of football long before the CFL and the Argos barged their way into BMO Field.

phil03's comments sound about right to me. The CFL gets built up as being a key part of Canadian culture but in my experience it simply isn't in the same league as hockey in that regard. I honestly can't think of anyone I have ever met in London, Ont that follows the CFL to any huge extent or would have a Grey Cup themed social event. The NFL and the Superbowl on the other hand is a completely different story.

You're an idiot.