CPL Stadium Thread

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

13 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I like the CFL. I get out to games. I will be at the Grey Cup next year.

Having said that, I think it's fair for TFC/Canada soccer fans to be frustrated with what happened to BMO. Before it was built, the CSA reached out to the Argos to look in to ground sharing and help with the cost of building. They declined, and it put that project in jeopardy....

They did more than that. They had agreed to be the anchor tenant on the U-20 World Cup stadium but pulled out of the York University stadium project (something to bear in mind for people who think York United play in a bad location) relatively late in the day after receiving a more favourable rental deal on the Rogers Centre. That could easily have killed off any possibility of MLS expansion if MLSE hadn't had Richard Peddie making key decisions and able to make persuasive arguments to groups like the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan.

No 20k crowds for TFC from 2007 onwards that were then emulated to a significant extent in Montreal and Vancouver and I doubt there would have been any interest in a league like CanPL another decade or so down the road once other very rich Canadians had seen what happened to TFC's franchise value after the initial $10 million expansion fee. We'd still be listerning to soccer haters in the legacy sports media telling us how nobody likes soccer in Canada and it will never succeed here because yadda yadda yadda.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Aird25]

Last night was another reminder how good the atmosphere can be at Starlight with a full stadium and engaged fans. 

[SoccMan]

8 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

They did more than that. They had agreed to be the anchor tenant on the U-20 World Cup stadium but pulled out of the York University stadium project (something to bear in mind for people who think York United play in a bad location) relatively late in the day after receiving a more favourable rental deal on the Rogers Centre. That could easily have killed off any possibility of MLS expansion if MLSE hadn't had Richard Peddie making key decisions and able to make persuasive arguments to groups like the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan.

No 20k crowds for TFC from 2007 onwards that were then emulated to a significant extent in Montreal and Vancouver and I doubt there would have been any interest in a league like CanPL another decade or so down the road once other very rich Canadians had seen what happened to TFC's franchise value after the initial $10 million expansion fee. We'd still be listerning to soccer haters in the legacy sports media telling us how nobody likes soccer in Canada and it will never succeed here because yadda yadda yadda.

Totally agree , what some people on this board fail to realize is that one of the good things that came out of TFC happening is it showed people that pro soccer can draw good crowds on a consistent basis . However, during the old NASL days Toronto was averaging close to 15000 more or less, Vancouver was getting 24000 on average , even the Edmonton Drillers back in the day averaged 12000 or so . The old Calgary team did ok too in terms of decent attendance numbers . We are talking the late 1970’s to early 1980’s here , moreover , even the old Montreal Manic pulled in decent crowds at times . Therefore , for me it wasn’t that much of a surprise the numbers TFC pulled in from the get go . Without those TFC numbers I don’t think you get Vancouver or Montreal coming in, moreover , it showed that pro soccer can pull in crowds and started the ball rolling for people to get behind a domestic Canadian league the CPL. The Argos left the CSA high and dry for a better deal with the Skydome and basically killed any hope of any soccer stadium, but then came crawling back when they saw that maybe a smaller venue might be better for them and of course in they came , killing off any attempt to make that mistake on the lake a real soccer stadium like you see in so many MLS cities in the US now . I have to sit in a 1960’s style open ended stadium because we have to cater to a team that almost killed off the pro game a few years back that only have 8 or 9 home games and barely draw 15000 a game most times .

[Joe MacCarthy]

Correcting my quote of "football ready", it should have said "capable of a conversion to a football format."  For what it is worth, here is the history

BMO built with football in mind
David Naylor theglobeandmail.com August 13, 2008

Toronto Argonauts co-owner Howard Sokolowski insists the notion that BMO Field was intended to be a soccer-specific stadium is incorrect.

And there appears to be evidence to back him up.

Toronto city council minutes from the fall of 2005, at which $9.8-million of city money was committed to the complex, note that the stadium proposed for the exhibition grounds was to be "capable of a conversion to a football format."

...

"This is not a soccer-specific stadium," Sokolowski said yesterday. "It was built for soccer, but it clearly had an understanding that it was convertible for football and to be expanded to 30,000 seats. That's what city council voted on."

[Rivaldo]

It seems ridiculous to still be mad at the Argos over the stadium when the people who made the decision to bail on a new stadium and stay in Skydome sold the Argos long ago. Two owners later, MLSE wanted them in BMO Field. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

MLSE had to take the Argos on as a charity case in exchange for the federal and provincial funding that added a second tier and a roof to the east stand at BMO Field. What they would really want along with the majority of gridiron football fans in the GTA is an NFL team playing in a new much larger stadium build somewhere like Downsview.

In the absence of that as a realistic possibility they were so captivated by the 114 year history of the Grey Cup and the CFL's cultural importance to Canada that we always get told about that they were gung ho about negotiating a merger with the Rock's XFL despite the long history of spring gridiron leagues failing in the United States.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Your first paragraph makes no sense.  If they wanted an NFL team which they are unable to have as they don't have an individual owner, why wouldn't they let the Argos die so they'd be out of the way.

I'm having a hard time understanding your conspiracy theories.  You're saying the CFL needs the CPL to build new stadiums and the like but above you're saying soccer needs the CFL to do the same thing?

That's what I love about the CFL haters they google anything they can construe as negative without knowing any context.

Surprisingly, there is some truth in your second paragraph.  Old Christmas Tree did want a merger with the XFL.  Aside from paying the bills which is all that David Braley did, digging a big hole for the Argos (and BC), MLSE is known for basically doing little to market the Argos.  And despite talking up their success MLSE hasn't yet said what they did, if anything to achieve those successes.  It took a rookie owner to call out MLSE and tell them how little they were doing for the Argos to get off their ass.  And that rookie owner has turned around the BC Lions the same way as media billionaire PKP is starting with Montreal.  And thankfully more intelligent heads prevailed and Larry T's XFL proposal did not come to pass.  I believe the vote was 7-2.  And now the XFL, still losing money hand over fist, is merging with the other league, there's been so many failures I can't remember the name.

Anyway, keep writing your conspiracy theories, I enjoy them, they're great entertainment.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

There's no huge mystery to any of this. Key members of MLSE's ownership were actively involved in trying to move the Buffalo Bills to Toronto in the not so distant past:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bills_Toronto_Series

[Joe MacCarthy]

6 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

There's no huge mystery to any of this. Key members of MLSE's ownership were actively involved in trying to move the Buffalo Bills to Toronto in the not so distant past:

Yes, I remember it well. Didn't work out too well did it (the series or the purchase).  Had to laugh that they chose Bon Jovi to partner with. His net worth was about a third of the CFL "hayseed" David Braley.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Joe MacCarthy

[Cheeta]

On 12/1/2023 at 12:46 PM, shermanator said:

Imagine being told to fuck off for over 30 years and still going strong.

50 plus and counting!

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

6 hours ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

Yes, I remember it well. Didn't work out too well did it (the series or the purchase).  Had to laugh that they chose Bon Jovi to partner with. His net worth was about a third of the CFL "hayseed" David Braley.

So what was all the conspiracy theory stuff about? The Argos owners are not particularly nterested in the CFL but good luck trying to get a massive  stadium upgrade to World Cup venue level funded by federal level ploiticians if it's only going to be for an MLS team and the CMNT as the amchor tenants with no CFL angle. CanPL was initially predicated on being tied into a solo Canadian World Cup bid but aa things have turned out a cumulative total of zero CanPL games have ever been played in the 2026 World Cup venues. 

[Joe MacCarthy]

26 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

good luck trying to get a massive  stadium upgrade to World Cup venue level funded by federal level ploiticians if it's only going to be for an MLS team and the CMNT as the amchor tenants with no CFL angle.

You're right, Trudeau and his caucus of old white man CFL followers will never allow a dime to go to anything soccer related.  Why, because it's 2023, that's why.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Again with the strawman arguments. Worth noting that Stephen Harper was the PM when BMO Field's expansion was agreed in 2014 and he had a parliamentary caucus skewed very heavily towards CFL country on the Prairies.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Again with the conspiracy theories.  And these CFL loving conservative Western white men care about a stadium in Toronto?  How come they didn't get a new stadium for Calgary, they sure need one.  Brother your logic is profound.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

What I posted was factual. The reason they cared was that without a Toronto team the CFL could easily unravel. Calgary is still around so did they even need a new stadium? 

[Joe MacCarthy]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

What I posted was factual. The reason they cared was that without a Toronto team the CFL could easily unravel. Calgary is still around so did they even need a new stadium? 

They didn't have a Montreal team and they didn't unravel.  Toronto wasn't in the Women's World Cup and that didn't unravel.  Frankly until this year and last Toronto has been an albatross for the CFL.

Does Calgary need a stadium? When was the last time you went to McMahon.  It has good sightlines and ...well and ...  I refer you to the many articles in the New Canadian Stadiums thread

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

The Argos were getting booted out of the Rogers Centre at the end of their lease in 2017 so there is no equivalence with the Calgary scenario, where the existing stadium may be sub-optimal but still does the job for the Stampeders. Whether you like it or not Toronto is the main national media centre in Canada in English language terms. There are reasons that CanPL still wants to persevere with York United even though the team struggles to hit four digits on actual attendance.

Similar arguments are applicable where the Argos and the CFL are concerned. Moncton appears to have been plan B, but the optics of that would have been even more problematic than no York United would be for CanPL's D1 aspirations in de facto as well as de jure terms. MLSE didn't really want the Argos, but that backdrop gave them some leverage to get things done on BMO Field to catch up with what was happening elsewhere in MLS at that point. Doing that would have been a much tougher sell in Ottawa if only soccer was involved...

[Joe MacCarthy]

So you're saying soccer needs the CFL to get things done now?  And somehow in some 4th dimensional equivalence, Moncton is somehow related to York United? Okayyyy.

I'm going to bed now, I'll need my rest to figure out whatever convoluted conspiracy theory you come up with next.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Think any reasonable reader of recent posts will find that I have in fact consistently been stating that it's much easier to obtain federal level funding for the CFL than it is for pro soccer. Low nine figures were involved with the upgrade of BMO Field. Good luck going to Ottawa asking for that sort of money for soccer even with the party that tends to win in the more multicultural ridings in power.

Would greatly prefer BMO Field had remained soccer specific but I can understand why MLSE were willing to prop up the CFL in exchange for not having to pay to upgrade the MLS stadium that they manage on behalf of the City of Toronto to keep pace with what was happening elsewhere. They also got an extra 10 years on the lease out to 2037.

In a CanPL context, Halifax have shown what can be done with not much more than a couple of sets of temporary bleachers and some containers, if you can persuade a public sector body to lease a suitable parcel of land. Over 20,000 seats is overkill in that context, so it's not so clear why there needs to be a CFL tie-in at the current level of operations. The requirements that CanPL has with regards to stadia are also making expansion a lot more difficult than it needs to be.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[RJB]

"12000-seat stadium or arena" being floated by the mayor of Surrey.  A councilor for the opposing party thinks it should be "something like 20000 seats" so they can "host crowds for games such as FIFA."

I guess we have to wait and see if they want an arena or stadium. 

https://vancouversun.com/news/surrey-mayor-announces-plan-for-12000-seat-stadium-two-new-entertainment-districts

[BearcatSA]

27 minutes ago, RJB said:

"12000-seat stadium or arena" being floated by the mayor of Surrey.  A councilor for the opposing party thinks it should be "something like 20000 seats" so they can "host crowds for games such as FIFA."

I guess we have to wait and see if they want an arena or stadium. 

https://vancouversun.com/news/surrey-mayor-announces-plan-for-12000-seat-stadium-two-new-entertainment-districts

My money is on arena.

[Cicero]

8 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

My money is on arena.

But why? Maybe it would pay for itself hosting events other than sports, but there's no chance the NHL or NBA would ever come to Surrey. No knock against Surrey, just that neither league will expand anywhere in Canada when there are large US cities without teams. And no junior hockey team will consistently fill even a 12,000 seat arena in Surrey, much less 20k. The Giants had a few years around 8-9k, but now are down around 3-4k. 

I would speculate that the thought behind a stadium would be to get the Lions as (co-)tenants. I would guess that most of their fan base is outside of the City of Vancouver now.

[SpursFlu]

The reason arena is more likely is concerts. What the lower mainland needs is like an 8k ish arena with all the bells and whistles. I agree 12 is too much for a Junior team but they were just throwing out numbers. LEC is a bit modest for the Giants. I think 12 is too small for a stadium and 12 was too big for an arena but again it was just a number thrown out. It wasn't edged in stone. I still don't get a stadium being built on the BC Lions practice facility that has nothing to do with the Lions.

Edited February 16 by SpursFlu

[BearcatSA]

56 minutes ago, Cicero said:

But why? Maybe it would pay for itself hosting events other than sports...

10 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

The reason arena is more likely is concerts.

 

Asked and answered.

Not just concerts but also home shows, travel rv shows, car shows, hunting/outdoors shows, gospel events, you name it, for year round availability indoors (unless the plan is to build a domed stadium, which I highly doubt).

[SpursFlu]

Im actually going off the board here and say both could be built. Cloverdale Fairgrounds is huge. You've got baseball stadium that should really be renovated and then a horse track with all the barns and whatever. It also has a casino, old museum. They have a Canada Day celebration with up to 100k coming thru. I went to a country concert there last year with close to 10k so it has the ability to host big crowds. New skytrain station a few blocks away. So I'm saying in the next 5 years Surrey builds a stadium bigger then 12k and an arena smaller than 12k. I think the point of that announcement was to say.. we're open for business, give us a call. We can build to suit 

Edited February 16 by SpursFlu