Will Johnson (update)

[BuzzAndSting]

40 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Okay, I understand what you are saying now, but:

1) I disagree that Will Johnson joining TFC necessitates a formation change, and I strongly disagree that Johnson makes Cheyrou redundant, because he is a better player than Will is (at least in my opinion).

2) Everything you are saying about the mechanics of a 4-4-2 Diamond is pretty much accurate, but I would argue that Beiteshour and Morrow are suitable wing backs in this system. They don't have to be Liechtensteiner and Evra to be affective - this is MLS.

Both ex- SJ Earthquake players are characterized as being effective on the overlap by analysts, especially Beiteshour (despite not being particularly athletic).

3) Athletic midfielders. Michael Bradley and Will Johnson have tremendous engines. Osorio covers enough ground and Cheyrou is no less mobile than Beckerman (and is equally composed and just as good of a passer).

IF RSL played a diamond for years with Beckerman-Johnson-Gravaboy-Morales, why can't TFC with Cheyrou-Johnson-Bradley-Osorio? 

Whaaaaat?!?! WJ is a 3 time MLS all star, with his last appearance in 2014, before his horrible accident. He is a two time MLS Champion and was the Portland Timbers supporters Player of the Year for 2013. He has also been named Canadian Player of the Year and won the Goal of the Year in MLS.

WJ's injury was bad but there's no reason to believe he won't regain the form that made him one of the best players in MLS.

[king1010]

29 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

Whaaaaat?!?! WJ is a 3 time MLS all star, with his last appearance in 2014, before his horrible accident. He is a two time MLS Champion and was the Portland Timbers supporters Player of the Year for 2013. He has also been named Canadian Player of the Year and won the Goal of the Year in MLS.

WJ's injury was bad but there's no reason to believe he won't regain the form that made him one of the best players in MLS.

QFT

[Obinna]

11 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

1 hour ago, BuzzAndSting said:

Whaaaaat?!?! WJ is a 3 time MLS all star, with his last appearance in 2014, before his horrible accident. He is a two time MLS Champion and was the Portland Timbers supporters Player of the Year for 2013. He has also been named Canadian Player of the Year and won the Goal of the Year in MLS.

WJ's injury was bad but there's no reason to believe he won't regain the form that made him one of the best players in MLS.

 

Yes Johnson is a 3 time All-Star, has won goal of the year, has won 2 MLS Cups, and 1 Canadian Player of the year. All outstanding accomplishments, making him the most decorated Canadian to play in MLS after deRosario. No doubt Will is a quality player and i'm glad TFC landed him. I am confident he will recapture his old form...

At the same time, Cheyrou has accolades of his own: 

Coupe de la Ligue titles in 2010 & 2012, plus Ligue 1 Champion in 2009-2010. On a personal level, he's been selected for Ligue 1 team of the year 3 times in a row, from 2007 to 2010. 

He's also played in 6 UEFA Champions League campaigns, with the most recent being the 2013-2014 season. 

With all due respect to Will Johnson, I believe Cheyrou has had a much more accomplished club career to date. He's also represented France at every level except senior. Unfortunately for him, The French squad is a tough one to crack.

With ALL that being said, I'm not saying Cheyrou is head and shoulders above Will Johnson. What I am saying though is that it's a little silly to say Johnson makes Cheyrou redundant. For starters, they are two completely different players and secondly, Cheyrou is the more talented of the two.  

Edited December 23, 2015 by Obinna

[Obinna]

7 hours ago, Yohan said:

I don't know if it would be as massive mistake as you think to get rid of Cheyrou. 

He is a good player and provide leadership in the locker room (and for once, which TFC had abundance now)

But he really is too slow and isn't the ideal DM at MLS level. He is a part time player now. Still has a role, but not a huge loss if he's gone. 

He's kinda like Pirlo for TFC. Decent offensively, but a liability defensively. With TFC midfield pushing up too much, Cheyrou doesn't have the legs to be a destroyer DM. Nor can he play box to box role. Still got fantastic range of passes, but that's not enough to try to square peg him in a round hole.

And somehow Chris Manella has to get mins, right?

Well, I really do not rate Chris Manella, so you're probably barking up the wrong tree

I feel compelled to point out a few things about this Cheyrou post:

1) "Cheyrou doesn't have the legs to be a destroyer. Nor can he play box to box role. Still got fantastic range of passes, but that;s not enough to try to square a peg him in a round hole".

Since when does Cheyrou have to be a destroyer?

As you accurately pointed out, he's kind of like Pirlo for TFC. He's a deep lying playmaker with an absolutely fantastic range of passing. So the question is, If Pirlo doesn't have to be a destroyer, why does Cheyrou? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me...

With Bradley and now Johnson in the fold, there is more than enough steel in the TFC midfield. Cheyrou doesn't need to play box-to-box. What TFC needed was a deep lying playmaker to complement Mr. do everything Michael Bradley - Cheyrou has done this perfectly. 

Why anyone would advocate to get rid of Cheyrou now is beyond me, that's why I find this statement puzzling...

 

2) "But he really is too slow and isn't the ideal DM at MLS level. He is a part time player now. Still has a role, but not a huge loss if he's gone." 

Last season, nobody complained that Cheyrou was "too slow" and certainly nobody described him as a part time player, who is not the "ideal DM" at MLS level.

I would value your opinion more if this rhetoric existed before the trade, but clearly this is a reaction to Will Johnson's arrival. Otherwise these concerns would have been voiced by yourself and others last season. 

Like I said before, Cheyrou provides the TFC midfield with something completely different, because he is a deep-lying playmaker (and last year he did that exceptionally well). I would argue he is absolutely a great fit for TFC.

In reality, Johnson is the square peg in a round hole, because he provides the exact same thing as Michael Bradley does.

TFC doesn't need two "Michael Bradley-type" players in the same midfield, but Will Johnson is so good that he's worth it.

TB alluded to this in the "welcome interview" with Will, basically saying the midfield was not an issue the team had to address, but you can't pass up on a player of WJ's quality. 

So, the common-sense thing here is to find a way to fit all the pieces together, not to get rid of valuable players. That is how you spin your wheels.....

 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Obinna

[BuzzAndSting]

32 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Yes Johnson is a 3 time All-Star, has won goal of the year, has won 2 MLS Cups, and 1 Canadian Player of the year. All outstanding accomplishments, making him the most decorated Canadian to play in MLS after deRosario. No doubt Will is a quality player and i'm glad TFC landed him. I am confident he will recapture his old form...

At the same time, Cheyrou has accolades of his own: 

Coupe de la Ligue titles in 2010 & 2012, plus Ligue 1 Champion in 2009-2010. On a personal level, he's been selected for Ligue 1 team of the year 3 times in a row, from 2007 to 2010. 

He's also played in 6 UEFA Champions League campaigns, with the most recent being the 2013-2014 season. 

With all due respect to Will Johnson, I believe Cheyrou has had a much more accomplished club career to date. He's also represented France at every level except senior. Unfortunately for him, The French squad is a tough one to crack.

With ALL that being said, I'm not saying Cheyrou is head and shoulders above Will Johnson. What I am saying though is that it's a little silly to say Johnson makes Cheyrou redundant. For starters, they are two completely different players and secondly, Cheyrou is the more talented of the two.  

Very good points, I stated in the TFC offseason thread that Cheyrou has had a better career. I like the guy and would disappointed if TFC let him go. My only complaints about him are that he can't be counted as an every game player and that sometimes he gets caught because of his reduced pace.

Back to Will, I think he could be on the verge of something very special. He's shown he can be a star in this league and I feel that he has the right mix of talent, passion and desire that, if he stays healthy, he could become one of the best players in the league. He's 28 now and he may be the kind of player, who like Atiba, hits his prime in his early 30s.

[Obinna]

7 hours ago, Yohan said:

 

 

3 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

Very good points, I stated in the TFC offseason thread that Cheyrou has had a better career. I like the guy and would disappointed if TFC let him go. My only complaints about him are that he can't be counted as an every game player and that sometimes he gets caught because of his reduced pace.

Back to Will, I think he could be on the verge of something very special. He's shown he can be a star in this league and I feel that he has the right mix of talent, passion and desire that, if he stays healthy, he could become one of the best players in the league. He's 28 now and he may be the kind of player, who like Atiba, hits his prime in his early 30s.

I certainly agree with everything in the first paragraph, but I am a little hesitant to say Cheyrou cannot be counted on as an "every game player" just yet...

Just because he'd been caught for pace on occasion last season doesn't necessarily mean he can no longer play as a starter every game. He's never had much pace to begin with, that's just the trade off with Cheyrou. That's also the benefit of TFC having Bradley (and now also Johnson), alongside him, because they do have the legs to get around the park.

Neither has the passing range or even composure that Cheyrou does though, while neither him, Bradley or Johnson has the flair that Osorio can produce (in flashes). Everyone brings something different to the table.

I think Bradley, Johnson, Osorio and Cheyrou will all start in March and give TFC a fine midfield-four.
 

[BearcatSA]

16 hours ago, Coramoor said:

Frings was just old and beat up

Koevermans was a freak ACL injury

Neither guy, but especially the Dutchman, was in particularly great shape coming into the season.  

Edited December 23, 2015 by BearcatSA

[baulderdash77]

We make the 4-4-2 diamond work so-so with Delgado and Warner, so certainly adding Will Johnson is an upgrade.  My point is that if I was going to look for the optimum use of our midfield; I think it's a 3 person midfield with Osorio, Johnson and Bradley.   To complement this I would say that using Cheyrou's salary slot to acquire a very good RW would be ideal.

Certainly if no move is made, we will be a better team with WJ taking over that other wide midfielder spot beside Osorio.  He's played both LM and RM before at RSL and was an all-star there.  Osorio has played both RM and LM for us; so I guess they'll work it out.

[Obinna]

33 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

We make the 4-4-2 diamond work so-so with Delgado and Warner, so certainly adding Will Johnson is an upgrade.  My point is that if I was going to look for the optimum use of our midfield; I think it's a 3 person midfield with Osorio, Johnson and Bradley.   To complement this I would say that using Cheyrou's salary slot to acquire a very good RW would be ideal.

Certainly if no move is made, we will be a better team with WJ taking over that other wide midfielder spot beside Osorio.  He's played both LM and RM before at RSL and was an all-star there.  Osorio has played both RM and LM for us; so I guess they'll work it out.

 

I see what you're saying, but you can't really talk about the 'optimum use of the midfield' while considering pieces that don't currently exist (i.e. this very good RW). 

If this is an optimization conversation, we really should limit it to the personal currently available. That means no 4-3-3. 

The 4-4-2 diamond gets all the best players on the field at once. That would be optimizing the midfield in my opinion. 

Now, if we are talking about strengthening the team by acquiring a very good RW, my first thought is to use Kantari's salary slot, not Cheyrou's.... 

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Obinna

[baulderdash77]

Kamari will have to be bought out to get under the salary cap.  He was the guy we had to give up to get Will Johnson.

 

[paul-collins]

On 12/21/2015 at 10:43 AM, apbsmith said:

Please don't take this personal fellas, also realize I do not have any hierarchy here.

Do you think you guys can try and keep or limit this thread about WJ?

a gentle reminder

[A_Gagne]

A lot of the conversation here has been about how to fit Cheyrou into the same midfield as Johnson. I think the better question is where does Osario fit in now? I think TFC's strongest midfield is Cheyrou, Johnson, Bradley, with trades made for more natural wingers. I think Osario, not Cheyrou, finds himself the odd man out here.

Unfortunately for Osario, I think having Johnson as a team mate also makes him less likely to get CMNT calls. Let's face it, FIFA rules or not the CSA/Floro it seems often has to make deals with clubs about who they take for which games, and I can certainly see TFC not being thrilled about having to loss Johnson, Osario and Bradley all at the same time.

I think Osario still plays a lot of minutes in 2016, but if TFC keeps Cheyrou, I don't see him starting.

[TFC07]

Vanney will find a way to make midfield work or get rid of Cheyrou (he's old and international) at worst.  Osorio will be starting especially if he improves on his game.   

TFC under Vanney play very narrow 4-4-2 where midfield play centrally while LB and RB provide width offensively (this is why signing wingers isn't priority for TFC).    This is why some TFC fans want DM so backline would be supported especially when LB and RB  are caught up the field.   

 

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

So we have the Honduras game in 8 weeks. Johnson will be out for 6 they say: http://www.torontofc.ca/post/2016/07/01/injury-update-michael-bradley-and-will-johnson

Looks like it wasn't the same leg as 2014.

It think it was his right leg he broke:  http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2014/09/27/portland-timbers-captain-will-johnson-suffers-broken-leg-loss-toronto-fc-team

and this time the fracture is in his left leg? (he grabs his left): http://www.torontofc.ca/post/2016/06/30/will-johnsons-game-winning-goal-june-29-2016

I suppose if it was the same leg they would be more cautious and the recovery time would be longer.

[rob.notenboom]

It's pretty funny reading old thread posts from people criticizing his commitment to the Nats. PVSD in full display. 

[Blackdude]

4 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

It's pretty funny reading old thread posts from people criticizing his commitment to the Nats. PVSD in full display. 

I thought that it was El Hombre sarcasm and people thinking that El Hombre was serious.

[rob.notenboom]

1 hour ago, Blackdude said:

I thought that it was El Hombre sarcasm and people thinking that El Hombre was serious.

I'm pretty sure El Hombre's sarcasm was directed at those being critical in the first place. 

[El Hombre]

Sarcasm?

[Blackdude]

9 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Sarcasm?

Sorry, Sar-Chasm

[BuzzAndSting]

6 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

It's pretty funny reading old thread posts from people criticizing his commitment to the Nats. PVSD in full display. 

This injury is clearly another attempt to get out of playing for Canada.

Only one problem Will! You didn't break your leg hard enough and now you'll be back in 6 weeks not 8! 

[dyslexic nam]

18 hours ago, BuzzAndSting said:

This injury is clearly another attempt to get out of playing for Canada.

Only one problem Will! You didn't break your leg hard enough and now you'll be back in 6 weeks not 8! 

I don't know anything about you, but I love that the tone of your post matches your emphatic avatar pic. 

 

That is all.

[gator]

Having watched Johnson week in and week out for TFC this season I appreciate how good he is and have remarked that he will be a very important part of our team if we are to get a result in Honduras, here's hoping he recovers well and is back to match fitness for September!

[David C.]

25 minutes ago, gator said:

Having watched Johnson week in and week out for TFC this season I appreciate how good he is and have remarked that he will be a very important part of our team if we are to get a result in Honduras, here's hoping he recovers well and is back to match fitness for September!

I'm worried that he won't have enough time to get match fit but fingers are definitely crossed, hoping that he does.

[El Hombre]

7 minutes ago, David C. said:

I'm worried that he won't have enough time to get match fit but fingers are definitely crossed, hoping that he does.

Will could sit on a couch for seven months eating nothing but salt and vinegar chips and donuts and he'd still be match fit.  The man is a beast.

[Floortom]

I would be pretty surprised if he ends up playing in the next round of WCQs. Hope I'm wrong though.