Will Johnson (update)

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Obinna said:

They need to sort out the GK situation, but I think TFC should line up like this now:

Beiteshour---Moor---Perquis---Morrow

Johnson---Bradley--Cheyrou---Osorio

---------Altidore------Giovinco-----------

Beitashour---Moor---Perquis---Morrow

Johnson---Bradley--Cheyrou---Osorio
--------------Altidore--GsdsJohnson---Bradley--Cheyrou---Osoriosf

--------------Altidore--Giovinco-------------

Johnson---Bradley--Cheyrou---Osorio
--------------Altidore--Giovinco-------------Beitashour---Moor---Perquis---Morrow

Johnson---Bradley--Cheyrou---Osorio
--------------Altidore--Giovinco-------------

Johnson---Bradley--Cheyrou---Osorio
--------------Altidore--Giovinco-------------

More like

Cheyrou

Bradley Johnson

Osorio

[baulderdash77]

I still think Bradley will be the top of the diamond 4-4-2 again.  Giovinco and Osorio on the left side is very dangerous.  Johnson will provide that missing ingredient I think.

        Cheyrou

Johnson     Osorio

         Bradley

Altidore   Giovinco

 

Its a narrow lineup but we should retain possession well and finish.  Those fullbacks providing overlapping width will be the key to the whole thing.

 

Edited December 19, 2015 by baulderdash77

[A_Gagne]

9 hours ago, Obinna said:

 

4 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

I still think Bradley will be the top of the diamond 4-4-2 again.  Giovinco and Osorio on the left side is very dangerous.  Johnson will provide that missing ingredient I think.

        Cheyrou

Johnson     Osorio

         Bradley

Altidore   Giovinco

 

Its a narrow lineup but we should retain possession well and finish.  Those fullbacks providing overlapping width will be the key to the whole thing.

 

Fullbacks better provide width, cause no one in that midfield will. My guess is TFC doesn't have the money to keep Cheyrou around with the acquisition of Johnson. I'm still calling this a win though, as Johnson is a boss and provides a lot more moving forward. Not to mention leadership. With him and Moor on the team, there's been a huge upgrade in that department.

Edited December 19, 2015 by A_Gagne

[Obinna]

I will be very disappointed if Cheyrou is done. He's a fantastic player. Totally underrated.

[baulderdash77]

To be honest the way the team is constructed I think Altidore is really the square peg.  If hey had a DP right wing player instead of Altidore then we would have a nearly perfect (for MLS) 4-2-3-1.

The combination of Bradley, who is most effective as an AM, plus the up top duo of Giovinco and Altidore is always going to lead to a strange formation.  Unless we ply Giovinco as a winger it's a mishmash.

[jpg75]

Bradley insists he's a deep lying CM. I wouldn't be surprised if we see him and Cheyrou beside each other in the middle.

[El Hombre]

20 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

Bradley insists he's a deep lying CM. I wouldn't be surprised if we see him and Cheyrou beside each other in the middle.

Bradley insists that he is a deep lying CM and an attacking mid and a wingback and a CB and a free kick taker and an assistant manager and a water boy and a right mid and...

[Fussball_eh]

I'd be happy for Altidore to move on. But who would you bring in as another offensive option?

[Obinna]

18 hours ago, jpg75 said:

Bradley insists he's a deep lying CM. I wouldn't be surprised if we see him and Cheyrou beside each other in the middle.

I have never heard Bradley say that. I have heard him in interviews say he gets a little annoyed with discussions on what he is as a midfielder, what his best role in midfield is, or where he should play in midfield.

He said he sees himself as a 'complete midfielder', and believes he is capable of preforming any role (within midfield) that the game or coach requires. 

[jpg75]

5 hours ago, Obinna said:

I have never heard Bradley say that. I have heard him in interviews say he gets a little annoyed with discussions on what he is as a midfielder, what his best role in midfield is, or where he should play in midfield.

He said he sees himself as a 'complete midfielder', and believes he is capable of preforming any role (within midfield) that the game or coach requires. 

That's why he's always played back, it's his comfort zone. He likes to receive the ball from the defenders and distribute. He also likes to jump into the play, but that doesn't negate the fact that he still likes everything to go through him.

[apbsmith]

Please don't take this personal fellas, also realize I do not have any hierarchy here.

Do you think you guys can try and keep or limit this thread about WJ?  I know it is relevant who he plays besides on club level and what position/role he fits into his club team. However arguing what type of position/role "USA's men's player of the year" is and where he should play on TFC kind of bothers me. I am sure there is a dif thread or forum to discuss the playing abilities and positions of Bradley.

Maybe I am overly full of Canadian pride but discussing an American player's ability in a Canadian message board, in a thread dedicated to another Canadian national team player just sits with me the wrong way.

Anyways, think it great WJ is on TFC, seems like a great move for all. 

My bad if offended anyways, just don't want to see this turn into a 5 page thread about Bradley. #candianhomer

[El Hombre]

I think it's a valid discussion because how Bradley plays will directly affect how Johnson plays and, in turn, how fans gauge his success with TFC.

Bradley is all over the map in midfield.  His propensity to prefer to play all roles rather than a single defined role will cause havoc for Johnson.  Part of the reason Osorio's stats are so good is because Bradley insists on running to within six feet of the ball carrier and demanding the ball at all times.  So, Osorio has a lot of completed passes that are just dump offs for Bradley.

Looking at this in a vacuum, and it seems like a good fit.  However, add Cheyrou to the mix and you have three midfield generals (in attitude) with him, Johnson and Bradley and a striker that constantly wants to be fed.  I'm not entirely sure that this is the best situation for Will. 

[TRM]

I kind of figured if Portland were to trade him it would be to an eastern team. No way do they want to have him come back and burn them with a conference rival.

[Keegan]

I think Will can play the right mid role but I don't think it's where he's best nor the player TFC needs there.  Sort of like how Osorio probably isn't the best mid for LM.  Maybe Cheyrou gets traded but I can't see it.

[BearcatSA]

14 hours ago, El Hombre said:

I think it's a valid discussion because how Bradley plays will directly affect how Johnson plays and, in turn, how fans gauge his success with TFC.

Bradley is all over the map in midfield.  His propensity to prefer to play all roles rather than a single defined role will cause havoc for Johnson.  Part of the reason Osorio's stats are so good is because Bradley insists on running to within six feet of the ball carrier and demanding the ball at all times.  So, Osorio has a lot of completed passes that are just dump offs for Bradley.

Looking at this in a vacuum, and it seems like a good fit.  However, add Cheyrou to the mix and you have three midfield generals (in attitude) with him, Johnson and Bradley and a striker that constantly wants to be fed.  I'm not entirely sure that this is the best situation for Will. 

I understand your points here. I sorta get the feeling that the midfield puzzle doesn't fit together with these particular pieces.  Cheyrou has a number of strengths but to me he's better suited in a duo holding mid partnership (like in Dallas where he could serve as the distribution conduit partnered with a younger destroyer type in Ulloa).  I'm not sure he's the guy best suited for the one man defensive job at the base of midfield diamond.

It's funny how you mentioned that Osorio had a lot of completed passes to Bradley and I remember the one match where Osorio was in an attacking mid position with Bradley behind and there was little passing chemistry between them. 

[pint]

Johnson made it very clear that he wanted to play in toronto, portland gave him his wish. I like the setup where johnson and bradley are on the left and right of the diamond with osorio at the top. Gives the guys in the middle the opportunity to move forward or cover defensively, while protective cheyrou from being caught out due to lack of pace. 

[baulderdash77]

Bradley could never play wide.  He's too undisciplined and we would end up with other teams wingers making long runs unmarked down the sidelines all the time.

Johnson really makes Cheyrou redundant.

Our team would work best right now if we could get rid of Cheyrou and pick up a true RM/RF.

Then we could play a true 4-3-3 with Johnson, Osorio and Bradley as the CM's which I think would work well.  Altidore could play up top and Giovinco could play on the left and cut inside like he did last year quite a bit.

 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

Bradley could never play wide.  He's too undisciplined and we would end up with other teams wingers making long runs unmarked down the sidelines all the time.

Johnson really makes Cheyrou redundant.

Our team would work best right now if we could get rid of Cheyrou and pick up a true RM/RF.

Then we could play a true 4-3-3 with Johnson, Osorio and Bradley as the CM's which I think would work well.  Altidore could play up top and Giovinco could play on the left and cut inside like he did last year quite a bit.

 

Why is the 4-1-2-1-2 not an option?

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, baulderdash77 said:

Bradley could never play wide.  He's too undisciplined and we would end up with other teams wingers making long runs unmarked down the sidelines all the time.

Johnson really makes Cheyrou redundant.

Our team would work best right now if we could get rid of Cheyrou and pick up a true RM/RF.

Then we could play a true 4-3-3 with Johnson, Osorio and Bradley as the CM's which I think would work well.  Altidore could play up top and Giovinco could play on the left and cut inside like he did last year quite a bit.

 

Just so you know, Bradley played on the right side of a 3-man midfield with Roma. Also, we are not talking about Bradley and Johnson playing "wide", if you know what I mean.

Johnson does not make Cheyrou redundant. They have different skill sets, but even if you see them as similiar, Cheyrou is the better player, so he would make Johnson redundant.

Getting ride of Cheyrou would be a massive mistake.

[Yohan]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Just so you know, Bradley played on the right side of a 3-man midfield with Roma. Also, we are not talking about Bradley and Johnson playing "wide", if you know what I mean.

Johnson does not make Cheyrou redundant. They have different skill sets, but even if you see them as similiar, Cheyrou is the better player, so he would make Johnson redundant.

Getting ride of Cheyrou would be a massive mistake.

I don't know if it would be as massive mistake as you think to get rid of Cheyrou. 

He is a good player and provide leadership in the locker room (and for once, which TFC had abundance now)

But he really is too slow and isn't the ideal DM at MLS level. He is a part time player now. Still has a role, but not a huge loss if he's gone. 

He's kinda like Pirlo for TFC. Decent offensively, but a liability defensively. With TFC midfield pushing up too much, Cheyrou doesn't have the legs to be a destroyer DM. Nor can he play box to box role. Still got fantastic range of passes, but that's not enough to try to square peg him in a round hole.

And somehow Chris Manella has to get mins, right?

[pint]

Lets not look past the fact that the players brought in last offseason were all european players who didn't get an offseason. They is year it appears that all players will get a proper offseason and preseason with the team, could go a long way to preventing the injuries we have seen in years past.

Johnson is likely a cheyrou replacement without actually moving on from the original player right away.

[baulderdash77]

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

Just so you know, Bradley played on the right side of a 3-man midfield with Roma. Also, we are not talking about Bradley and Johnson playing "wide", if you know what I mean.

Of course he did.  In a 4-3-3 it's 1 DM, 2 box to box CM;s and the wide players are the forwards.  That's what I'm advocating we play in fact.

I don't think we have the fullbacks or athletic midfielders to play a 4-4-2 Diamond, We don't have the athletes that you get at teams that play it successfully.  The only teams playing well with a 4-4-2 Diamond are Juventus and Borussia Dourtmond and we don't have those quality of players.  The 4-4-2 Diamond is a big reason why we both scored the most and conceded the most goals last year.  On the counter we can open teams up like a can opener but we lose defensive shape in the midfield too.

The problem with a 2 striker formation has is that in order to get that second up top players you have to either sacrifice the center of the midfield or the wing unless your wider midfielders can be athletic enough to shade and recover constantly.  I don't think Vanney is good enough of a coach to pull it off and our players aren't good enough athletes to do the same.

In any rate, with Bradley, Johnson and Osorio we have a great 3 person central midfield.  Cheyrou is becoming redundant but we could use a true wide RW to play up top with Altidore and Giovinco.

[BearcatSA]

4 hours ago, pint said:

Lets not look past the fact that the players brought in last offseason were all european players who didn't get an offseason. They is year it appears that all players will get a proper offseason and preseason with the team, could go a long way to preventing the injuries we have seen in years past.

Unfortunately that didn't happen with Koevermans and Frings after their MLS off season.

Edited December 22, 2015 by BearcatSA

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

Of course he did.  In a 4-3-3 it's 1 DM, 2 box to box CM;s and the wide players are the forwards.  That's what I'm advocating we play in fact.

I don't think we have the fullbacks or athletic midfielders to play a 4-4-2 Diamond, We don't have the athletes that you get at teams that play it successfully.  The only teams playing well with a 4-4-2 Diamond are Juventus and Borussia Dourtmond and we don't have those quality of players.  The 4-4-2 Diamond is a big reason why we both scored the most and conceded the most goals last year.  On the counter we can open teams up like a can opener but we lose defensive shape in the midfield too.

The problem with a 2 striker formation has is that in order to get that second up top players you have to either sacrifice the center of the midfield or the wing unless your wider midfielders can be athletic enough to shade and recover constantly.  I don't think Vanney is good enough of a coach to pull it off and our players aren't good enough athletes to do the same.

In any rate, with Bradley, Johnson and Osorio we have a great 3 person central midfield.  Cheyrou is becoming redundant but we could use a true wide RW to play up top with Altidore and Giovinco.

Okay, I understand what you are saying now, but:

1) I disagree that Will Johnson joining TFC necessitates a formation change, and I strongly disagree that Johnson makes Cheyrou redundant, because he is a better player than Will is (at least in my opinion).

2) Everything you are saying about the mechanics of a 4-4-2 Diamond is pretty much accurate, but I would argue that Beiteshour and Morrow are suitable wing backs in this system. They don't have to be Liechtensteiner and Evra to be affective - this is MLS.

Both ex- SJ Earthquake players are characterized as being effective on the overlap by analysts, especially Beiteshour (despite not being particularly athletic).

3) Athletic midfielders. Michael Bradley and Will Johnson have tremendous engines. Osorio covers enough ground and Cheyrou is no less mobile than Beckerman (and is equally composed and just as good of a passer).

IF RSL played a diamond for years with Beckerman-Johnson-Gravaboy-Morales, why can't TFC with Cheyrou-Johnson-Bradley-Osorio? 

[Coramoor]

2 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

Unfortunately that didn't happen with Koevermans and Frings after their MLS off season.

Frings was just old and beat up

Koevermans was a freak ACL injury