How Far Are We From A Soccer Nation?

[lamptern]

Yes, we qualified for the World Cup again after 36 years.

Yes, we have a world elite star playing in one of the best club on this globe.

Yes, we sold out tickets for a WCQ games in a couple of days.

BUT......

When I can't watch both Champions League semifinals on neither of main  stream TV channels (they played NBA highlights and world tour pokers instead);

When our soccer association unable/unwilling to update it's website for an ongoing youth camp;

When we don't have a specific soccer stadium with grass pitch over 45,000 seats 4 years from hosting  World Cup.

......

I can't see we are a soccer nation yet. 

Bet all my words could  still stand in 2030? 

 

 

[narduch]

I will have more to say on this later, but the Champions League semis and final will be available on CBS.

[gigi riva]

I love to watch Serie A and I have been a big supporter of The Azzurri for well over 40years, But even in that same time I have followed The CMNT and Clubs Like Toronto Blizzard, Toronto Lynx , to present Day TFC , Forge FC, and Guelph United .  As much as I was happy with seeing Italy winning World Cups in 82,2006, and most recently winning the Euro in 2021. But at the same time I was pretty down on not seeing Canada getting any Soccer glory with the exception of the Gold Cup in 2000. 

      Now we have entered a new era of Soccer in Canada and I think its sustainable hopefully . It is time we create our own Soccer Culture right here in this country. I want to see more people wearing Team Canada apparel, or wearing  TFC, CF Montreal, and Whitecaps  apparel. Even  CPL teams too. (Macron has made some beautiful apparel) . I want to see more supporters groups like Red Patch Boys, etc I think these groups shuold get involved more in there respected cities , I cannot see why the Hockey community and the Soccer Community work together instead of bickering amongst each other  as they are in some areas. 

   Will be interesting to see come November what the TV audience will be for QATAR especially with the NHL,NFL, and NBA  all going on at the same time

 

 

[Atlantic]

I think we are progressing towards being a football nation, but it would be hard for us to call ourselves one right now when our men's domestic league is only in its fourth season and we do not have a professional league for women. 

[gigi riva]

3 hours ago, Atlantic said:

I think we are progressing towards being a football nation, but it would be hard for us to call ourselves one right now when our men's domestic league is only in its fourth season and we do not have a professional league for women. 

When you think about it CPL has really only played 2 full seasons in 4 years . But have done some okay things like FORGE having decent runs in Champions League , And Pacific, and Calvary beating MLS teams 

[Free kick]

14 hours ago, lamptern said:

Yes, we qualified for the World Cup again after 36 years.

Yes, we have a world elite star playing in one of the best club on this globe.

Yes, we sold out tickets for a WCQ games in a couple of days.

BUT......

When I can't watch both Champions League semifinals on neither of main  stream TV channels (they played NBA highlights and world tour pokers instead);

When our soccer association unable/unwilling to update it's website for an ongoing youth camp;

When we don't have a specific soccer stadium with grass pitch over 45,000 seats 4 years from hosting  World Cup.

......

I can't see we are a soccer nation yet. 

Bet all my words could  still stand in 2030? 

 

 

I agree.  Espcially the part about stadiums.  I would add that the sport is still regarded as fringe in mainstream media.  Priority is still given to Hockey and Baseball, NFL etc.   This may never change.  
 

But you cant be a soccer nation unless soccer is a more dominant topic of social discourse when it comes to sports.   There are large swaths of demographics whereby soccer is regarded as the sport of immigrants.  Or , in these swaths, they may catch on bandwagon when things are good,  but in reality they view the sport no differently than than any olympics sport.  
 

when the politicians are bending over backwards to fund soccer infrastaructure improvements like they do for baseball and hockey, then you know we are a soccer nation. 
 

EDIT:   I would add one more controversial point.   I beleive that there are opinion leaders & poweful interests out there (indiviual, corporate and political) in canada who really dont want us to become a soccer nation.   Because this would come at the expense of other established sports and interests.  And because for what this would say about our identity as a nation.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Free kick

[TGAA_Star]

2 hours ago, Atlantic said:

I think we are progressing towards being a football nation, but it would be hard for us to call ourselves one right now when our men's domestic league is only in its fourth season and we do not have a professional league for women. 

Yes we are progressing towards being a football ⚽️ nation but we can't really consider ourselves one especially when our league the CPL is not one of the top leagues in the world. If it was, then I would say we are on our way. But we are still developing. But if we don't have a Women's league either, then can't call ourselves one either so I agree.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Fan intensity is still pretty soft, compared to most footballing nations.

Mostly what we see are simulacrums of supporter sections, same in MLS. There is a qualiltative difference, but I appreciate if you have not seen it, you have not seen it. 

I see this regularly with little details. Once with a Sounders visit to BC Place, their fans interrupted very rudely the Canadian national anthem. I thought it was a bit outrageous (and I am fine with not standing or singing the thing even), but still. My brain said let's go over there and ask WTF they think they are doing. 

No one around seemed phased at all. There is not even theatrical confrontation normally, which is why some of the fan behaviour vs the US in Hamilton was promising (chants about burning down DC in 1812 think they were).

There's a lot of basic hood behaviour most fans in footballing nations get totally.  I even see it here when the women play, ref misses something inocuous and the fans lay in heavy. Am I advocating a bit of beligerancy? Think it does come with the status referred to here.

Mind you, does this mean we are not a footballing nation? If you look at the 76ers fans last match, and this was Philadelphia, you would argue that the US is not a basketball nation. The lamest bunch of weak-minded fans you will ever see, in a playoff match. There were a couple of goofs in the front row, near the Superfan who was down there, who knew one rule and screamed like idiots every time they thought a Raptor was using an off-arm to shield the dribble. Only single concern (it is legal as long as it is not stiff arm and excessive). Otherwise, those fans visible (pricey seats) were not people living in a basketball nation.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Watchmen]

I don't think the next few years are going to be when we judge if we're a "soccer nation". It's the first World Cup in 36 years, followed by our first hosting of the men's tournament ever. So regardless of anything else, there's going to be a ton of hype around soccer over the next 4 years. When we emerge from the other side of it, in 2027/28 range, we'll see what the result of it all was. If there's higher engagement, discussion, etc.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I think you have to make a distinction between club and country. Our average attendance in the Ocho, with some covid restrictions in place, was north of 27,000. The TV numbers, as those crowds started to rise, were also excellent. All good numbers, and reflect that Canadians now realize we are pretty good at soccer. We are headed to the top international competition. MLS and CPL will obviously lag behind for the foreseeable future. I think the test will be to see if we can get a bump in interest at the club level as a result of the CNTs -men and women.

[red card]

19 hours ago, lamptern said:

Yes, we qualified for the World Cup again after 36 years.

Yes, we have a world elite star playing in one of the best club on this globe.

Yes, we sold out tickets for a WCQ games in a couple of days.

BUT......

When I can't watch both Champions League semifinals on neither of main  stream TV channels (they played NBA highlights and world tour pokers instead);

When our soccer association unable/unwilling to update it's website for an ongoing youth camp;

When we don't have a specific soccer stadium with grass pitch over 45,000 seats 4 years from hosting  World Cup.

......

I can't see we are a soccer nation yet. 

Bet all my words could  still stand in 2030? 

 

 

Having Champions League on DAZN is a sign we're becoming more of a soccer nation. They paid more for it than TSN. And there was enough Canadians engaged with soccer to sign up for a new stand alone subscription service.

Sports streaming services relied on soccer first to penetrate the market. Interest in the sport has widened to a point that we have now 3 stand alone sports streamers focused on soccer. Now, there are bidding wars between the services. 

The 2 linear tv sports channels(TSN & SN) also didn't abandon the sport. They just got or maintained rights to leagues (Bundesliga, WSL, laLiga etc..) that more fit their budget given their declining revenues. And they kept the rights to the events that attract a mass audience (World Cup & Euros) given their ad supported model.

TSN got its largest increase in TSN Direct subs during the quarter when Euros were held last year. And the most streamed sports event in Canada was last year's Euro Final. This shows the sport's demo is much younger than the sports mainly shown on linear tv (whose demo is majority >55).

Canada has entered the golden age of soccer viewing. You might not see the league you want on linear tv. There is too much variety of interest in leagues/competitions for linear tv to handle it anymore - let alone any one streamer.

It is also in part due to Canada's media industry structure. TSN/SN are owned by parents who aren't yet ready to fully stop milking their legacy distribution pipelines. So, it took 3 foreign-owned companies more steeped in the sport to fill the market gap.

Edited April 28, 2022 by red card

[Free kick]

I believe that If streaming services was the way to go, then the NHL, NBA, NFL, MLB, the masters golf, wimbledon tennis, March madness…etc etc would be there already.   Streaming services will never allow you to grow your audience because its a service you have to seek out (and find it) and hence its appointement viewing and therefore only for niche audiences.   Nobody is going to buy a streaming subsciption unless they are a loyal follower already.  You grow the game and attract new audiences through linear service.   
 

Tennis is a good example.  There is a streaming service for the ATP events.  Tennis TV. I even have the app but i dont subscribe.    But they would never ever abandon linear service and put the grand slams or even all of the ATP 1000 event on Tennis TV.  Because only the fanatics would bother with Tennis TV.  Its the Slams that will create new audiences that will allow subscitions to Tennis TV to grow. 
 

i view the DAZN as a huge step backwards for the sport in Canada.  The situation with  DAZN is no different than what it was in the dark ages before Rogers got the rights to the EPL in the early 2000’s.   Prior to that time you had to go to an ethnic cafe, bar or pub.    The game died in Canada in that era.   Going to an ethnic cafe/pub or watching on DAZN is the same thing. 
 

I use to watch the EPL almost Saturday morning at 10am when it was on Rogers but I havent watched it at all since it went to DAZN.  And who ever from the Epl who negociated that feal, were very stupid IMHO.  They got very greedy and took the short term profit instaed of long term gains.   They killed their product in Canada just as it was growing in leaps and are killing their brand. I think that they just dont care about Canada because its the big US market that they are interested in,  thats why they went to DAZN in Canada.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Free kick

[youllneverwalkalone]

I don't follow the Premier League (or boxing) since moving to DAZN.

[Free kick]

21 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I don't follow the Premier League (or boxing) since moving to DAZN.

Me too.  I haven’t watched EPL at all since they went to DaZN.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Free kick

[Cheeta]

11 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I don't follow the Premier League (or boxing) since moving to DAZN.

Exact opposite, but truthfully don't watch nearly as much of anything like I used to the last year or three.  With DAZN losing EPL I might drop them.  Until CHampions League comes around or, or, or.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

12 hours ago, Free kick said:

I believe that If streaming services was the way to go, then the NHL, NBA, NFL, MLB, the masters golf, wimbledon tennis, March madness…etc etc would be there already.   Streaming services will never allow you to grow your audience because its a service you have to seek out (and find it) and hence its appointement viewing and therefore only for niche audiences.   Nobody is going to buy a streaming subsciption unless they are a loyal follower already.  You grow the game and attract new audiences through linear service.   
 

Tennis is a good example.  There is a streaming service for the ATP events.  Tennis TV. I even have the app but i dont subscribe.    But they would never ever abandon linear service and put the grand slams or even all of the ATP 1000 event on Tennis TV.  Because only the fanatics would bother with Tennis TV.  Its the Slams that will create new audiences that will allow subscitions to Tennis TV to grow. 
 

i view the DAZN as a huge step backwards for the sport in Canada.  The situation with  DAZN is no different than what it was in the dark ages before Rogers got the rights to the EPL in the early 2000’s.   Prior to that time you had to go to an ethnic cafe, bar or pub.    The game died in Canada in that era.   Going to an ethnic cafe/pub or watching on DAZN is the same thing. 
 

I use to watch the EPL almost Saturday morning at 10am when it was on Rogers but I havent watched it at all since it went to DAZN.  And who ever from the Epl who negociated that feal, were very stupid IMHO.  They got very greedy and took the short term profit instaed of long term gains.   They killed their product in Canada just as it was growing in leaps and are killing their brand. I think that they just dont care about Canada because its the big US market that they are interested in,  thats why they went to DAZN in Canada.

I would say you are basing some of this on personal experience and preference. 

I am not young by any means but I and much of the generations younger than me don't watch "TV" , not just sports, from a cable (satelite here) provider anymore. That is going from market numbers (and from younger siblings and nieces and nephews etc. in Canada).  

Even the big traditional media companies offer streaming options in both countries these days.  

Edited April 28, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Fresh Prince of MTL]

2 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I would say you are basing some of this on personal experience and preference. 

I am not young by any means but I and much of the generations younger than me don't watch "TV" , not just sports, from a cable (satelite here) provider anymore. That is going from market numbers (and from younger siblings and nieces and nephews etc. in Canada).  

Even the big traditional media companies offer streaming options in both countries these days.  

As a mid 20 year old I can back this statement up. Again it’s just anecdotal evidence but I don’t know any friends who have cable these days. Most of my soccer watching friends were complaining last summer that the Euros were on TSN rather than DAZN… 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

23 hours ago, Free kick said:

...EDIT:   I would add one more controversial point.   I beleive that there are opinion leaders & poweful interests out there (indiviual, corporate and political) in canada who really dont want us to become a soccer nation...

Guess it's a sign of progress that stating this would even be controversial. Back in the 80s and 90s the anti-soccer agenda was constantly in your face any time you picked up a newspaper or tuned into a sports show on the radio or cable TV (Don Cherry's Grapevine being particularly memorable at times). Can remember being on the receiving end of grief in the workplace over playing soccer rather than something like softball as this meant I wasn't making an effort to be Canadian and should go back from whence I came. Loved watching heads explode when I explained the concept of multiculturalism and told them what I chose to do in my spare time was none of their goddamn business.

[SpursFlu]

48 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Guess it's a sign of progress that stating this would even be controversial. Back in the 80s and 90s the anti-soccer agenda was constantly in your face any time you picked up a newspaper or tuned into a sports show on the radio or cable TV (Don Cherry's Grapevine being particularly memorable at times). Can remember being on the receiving end of grief in the workplace over playing soccer rather than something like softball as this meant I wasn't making an effort to be Canadian and should go back from whence I came. Loved watching heads explode when I explained the concept of multiculturalism and told them what I chose to do in my spare time was none of their goddamn business.

Sounds like you need therapy and you're suffering from ptsd from those traumatic encounters with softball guy back in 90s. I'm picturing a custom Muzuno bottle bat, Oakleys and the number 69 on the back of his jersey

Edited April 28, 2022 by SpursFlu

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Why would explaining Canada's multiculturalism policy to small minded bigots leave me with PTSD? As explained I enjoyed watching their faces twist with rage as I did so. Winding things back to what Free Kick was saying. People used to be overt about stuff like that 30 or 40 years ago. It's naive to think the soccer haters have completely gone away just because that's no longer the case and that there aren't influential people who will still try to stifle our sport if they have the opportunity to do so.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[red card]

19 hours ago, Free kick said:

I believe that If streaming services was the way to go, then the NHL, NBA, NFL, MLB, the masters golf, wimbledon tennis, March madness…etc etc would be there already.   Streaming services will never allow you to grow your audience because its a service you have to seek out (and find it) and hence its appointement viewing and therefore only for niche audiences.   Nobody is going to buy a streaming subsciption unless they are a loyal follower already.  You grow the game and attract new audiences through linear service.   
 

Tennis is a good example.  There is a streaming service for the ATP events.  Tennis TV. I even have the app but i dont subscribe.    But they would never ever abandon linear service and put the grand slams or even all of the ATP 1000 event on Tennis TV.  Because only the fanatics would bother with Tennis TV.  Its the Slams that will create new audiences that will allow subscitions to Tennis TV to grow. 
 

i view the DAZN as a huge step backwards for the sport in Canada.  The situation with  DAZN is no different than what it was in the dark ages before Rogers got the rights to the EPL in the early 2000’s.   Prior to that time you had to go to an ethnic cafe, bar or pub.    The game died in Canada in that era.   Going to an ethnic cafe/pub or watching on DAZN is the same thing. 
 

I use to watch the EPL almost Saturday morning at 10am when it was on Rogers but I havent watched it at all since it went to DAZN.  And who ever from the Epl who negociated that feal, were very stupid IMHO.  They got very greedy and took the short term profit instaed of long term gains.   They killed their product in Canada just as it was growing in leaps and are killing their brand. I think that they just dont care about Canada because its the big US market that they are interested in,  thats why they went to DAZN in Canada.

MLB, NHL, NBA & NFL all have a small selection to a majority of games on streaming services in the US. In Canada, because our media industry ownership is different and by owning teams, a game for these 4 leagues is usually on both linear tv & streamed. 

Soccer in Canada is similar (or just like tennis). There is quite a bit on linear tv including the 3 gateway events to the sport: Olympic soccer, World Cups & Euros.

4 of the top 5 club leagues & Champions League rights are owned by streamers or BEIN. But this shows the Canadian soccer base is large enough and engaged enough to pay for a service that provides full coverage of their favourite league (s). The majority of Champions League matches are also streamed in the US. And with NBCSN shut down, the majority of Premier League matches are being streamed as of this year. 

But there is still more club football on Canadian linear tv than there was in the 90s or the first decade of this century. A typical weekend from August to May has about 10 matches on linear tv from MLS, laLiga, Bundesliga, FA Cup, WSL & non-English coverage of Serie A, ligue 1 and ligaMX + spillover content from US tv which includes PL/NWSL. Plus, there are free match streams on uefa.tv, twitch, youtube and now FIFA+.

For Canadians under 30, tv hasn't often been the gateway to soccer anyway. Majority of them have never paid for cable tv. Instead, playing EA FIFA is a top driver. Following celebrity level players on social media is another way they engage. Fantasy sports is another driver especially for the big 4 North American leagues - this also has shifted the focus from being a fan of a team to a being a fan of individual players. 

Their screen habits are also not about watching a game end-to-end.  Their viewing is mostly online clips or watching portions live when their buddies text them or when it starts blowing up on their feeds. There is now an app in the US that will notify you when something notable is happening in a game and you can then start watching it for a couple of bucks.

Edited April 29, 2022 by red card

[Kent]

Yeah, DAZN having games isn't an indicator that we aren't a soccer nation. When Champions League and Premier League games started being shown on TSN or Sportsnet it was because there was nothing else to put on. It was the equivalent of poker, darts, or Top Misplays Of The Month. Just a time filler. I am sure DAZN paid more for rights than TSN and Sportsnet did back in the day.

In the 90's and early 2000's I probably watched 0 or 1 game a week, maybe occasionally 2 games. Those games would all be coming from Europe. Now I watch at least 2 games a week every week, and they are local teams I am watching. That to me sounds like a progression towards us becoming more of a soccer nation.

Anyways, the original question is unanswerable, since there is no defined criteria for what makes a soccer nation. But I guess either we already are one, or if we aren't, we are probably about 1850km away from a soccer nation, since that's about the distance from Victoria to Tijuana.

[lamptern]

As a Vancouverite, a sign of we are on the way to a soccer nation would be a minimum 2 hours of designated soccer talk either on TSN, SNP or AM650 on a daily (or even weekly) basis. I never dreamed of we could have a something like  AM1300 as "Home of Whitecaps". 

Currently, there are non of soccer talk show on main stream media. A reflection of no market value? I don't know.

Edited April 30, 2022 by lamptern

[Free kick]

On 4/28/2022 at 1:01 PM, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I would say you are basing some of this on personal experience and preference. 

I am not young by any means but I and much of the generations younger than me don't watch "TV" , not just sports, from a cable (satelite here) provider anymore. That is going from market numbers (and from younger siblings and nieces and nephews etc. in Canada).  

Even the big traditional media companies offer streaming options in both countries these days.  

Ok.  I have had multiple streaming subscriptions to watch sports.  And for several years now.  I have cancelled and renewed some on and off multiple times.  Its far from a novelty to me.  I have used them a lot.   For example, i really could not follow the Olympics were it not for streaming.   They certainly have a place in market but their content is still niche.   To my earlier point,   all the big properties are still on linear service so the question is why?   Because that's where the real money still is.   

So while everything you say about people not watching television anymore is true.   This doesn't apply to live sports. Live sports is the exception.     In the case of the EPL they stayed on network TV in the US and that's a market that is 10 times our size.  hence it has much more growth  potential for the EPL clubs than Canada.   

Obviously, the biggest bidder will win the rights and the DAZN wont the rights to Canada.   Fair enough, but I still dont see that the EPL  have expanded the audience (since that time) for soccer in Canada by doing this deal with DAZN.  They have frozen the growth by locking in the audience that's is already there and was created when the games were on Rogers.   In the years following the start of EPL on SN, we were starting to see (out in public) huge surge of EPL club merchandize being worn during the summer.   I honest don't see as much anymore, or i definitely don't see the growth. I don't hear the same level of workplace conversation etc regarding EPL.   

Edited April 30, 2022 by Free kick

[lamptern]

To be realistic,  I'd see we are a soccer nation when the market value, media coverage and fan base of CPL+MLS+International Soccer became into the same tier of NHL, NFL, NBA and MLB.

Have we grown bigger than CFL now? I dought.

Edited April 30, 2022 by lamptern